News: US healthcare is totally fucked up as is the US.

[Raz]

Re: News: US healthcare is totally fucked up as is the US.

Its pointless arguing with you because after reading many of your posts in the forum about how you value the human life. No is going to change your mind, and I sure as hell ain't gonna waste my time trying.

-have a good day

Your perception is excellent, your assessment is correct, and you have definitely made the right decision.;)

[GRG55]

Re: News: US healthcare is totally fucked up as is the US.

Nice graphics but is life expectancy an apples to apples comparison of the quality of health care? I think most people with regular jobs leads lives that are far more stressful under a lot more pressure here in the US than anywhere else in the world. I think this has a huge negative impact on overall health and absolutely brings down life expectancy.

Our per person expense may be sky high but lets not write it off as total crap unless we can make some adjustments to those numbers.:confused:

There's a variety of indicators that point to the same thing. Take a look at infant mortality rates in the USA vs comparables, for example, if you want to back out the job stress related factors.

There's lots of stats that support whatever argument one wants to make. For example if a comparison is made of treated cardiac patients in the best facilities in the USA against the top hospitals in Canada, the USA survival rate is marginally higher - and that can be pretty important I would imagine if one needed open heart surgery and had the means to choose where to get treated [I know what my decision would be in that circumstance ].

So no one can argue the the USA doesn't have great health care.

But I don't think anyone can argue that the USA, in aggregate, spends an unsustainable amount of GDP on health care, and gets, in aggregate, an inferior result.

[Rajiv]

Re: News: US healthcare is totally fucked up as is the US.

The problem I see is that when everybody is at the feeding trough -- the Health Insurance Cos, the Pharma Industry, the Healthcare providers and of course, the politicians -- and they are the ones who have the best paid lobbyists and the best paid PR firms, why would we ever expect to get back value for our money?

For example, California's Proposition 186 went down to defeat after an intensive PR campaign funded by the insurance industry


California's Proposition 186: Lessons from a Single-Payer Health Care Reform Ballot Initiative Campaign

Abstract
Proposition 186 was an initiative on the November 1994 California ballot which proposed to establish a state single-payer health care program. Although Prop 186 was overwhelmingly defeated in the November 1994 election (73% No, 27% Yes), it accomplished many things. Model legislation was developed showing the feasibility of a specific single-payer program for California. It was placed on the ballot by an unprecedented volunteer signature-gathering effort and was the largest grassroots political campaign fund-raising effort in California history. A novel strategy for the discussion of complex issues through 1500 house parties was launched. Prop 186 was defeated by an insurance industry-led coalition with an anti-government message. Lessons for future efforts include increasing the size and duration of the grassroots organizing and educational effort, and decreasing reliance on conventional political campaign tactics and the mainstream media.

[Techdread]

Re: News: US healthcare is totally fucked up as is the US.

Here is an article from poland, non translated because I could not find a translator that could do it.

http://www.polityka.pl/kraj/opinie/1...andardowa.read

let me give you a short summary. The NFZ (government socialized medicine authority) has run out of money, there are 2 types of cancer treatments, old ones and new ones, when the old ones don't work people need the new methods, they are expensive. People have to go to the bureaucrat to decide whether to get the treatment and when it will be done.

yesterday on the tv, I saw a guy between looked between 35-50 either pancreatic or stomach cancer, he said "I'm young and I want to live". Some bureaucrat is going to decide whether this guy will get the treatment to live.

As costly as our system here is, I would still rather get into debt and pay than be in a position like that, on tv saying to others "I'm young and I want to live". He wasn't the only one, tons of people waiting for a decision.

There is a human aspect to this, it is not just numbers and $$$ that count.

Just because a country has nationlised healthcare does not mean individuals can't pay for theirs.

In the UK good employers include private health care as part of employees pay package, though it is taxed as a benefit in kind.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: News: US healthcare is totally fucked up as is the US.

Its pointless arguing with you because after reading many of your posts in the forum about how you value the human life. No is going to change your mind, and I sure as hell ain't gonna waste my time trying.

-have a good day

Rather than your attempting to change my mind, why not focus on refuting the argument that human life is cheap on the basis of supply which seems to be unending so far vs. the lack of demand for so many humans.

[chr5648]

Re: News: US healthcare is totally fucked up as is the US.

Rather than your attempting to change my mind, why not focus on refuting the argument that human life is cheap on the basis of supply which seems to be unending so far vs. the lack of demand for so many humans.

1) Even if I were to refute the argument with premises based on fact, evidence, empirical observations, then provide a logical progression. I may still not change your mind?

2) What makes you think I would want to change your mind? You should search the facts yourself and make your own conclusions. I come to itulip or any other online information source to find information, engage in intelligent debate(sometimes questionable), and then make my own decisions.

Mind changing is for the oligarchs and media.

3) Here is a little post I wrote today against some America bashers, http://www.itulip.com/forums/showpos...6&postcount=69
It may have some historical parallels to population demand.

So my question to you is, what is the 'over supply' of humans? what definition are you using? What evidence can we find about the 'supply' of humanity throughout thousands of years of history? I put 'supply' and 'over supply' in quotes, using certain words and semantics like 'supply' load the assumption that humans are commodities.

[Spartacus]

Re: News: US healthcare is totally fucked up as is the US.

I've often read that Japanese stress levels are far higher, at all levels.

All levels means when I was in high school there were frequent comparisons of Japanese schoolchildren's suicide rates versus western schoolchildren.

They even have a one word term in Japan for "dropping dead on the job from overwork", I've forgotten it at the moment.

This happened a little while ago to a "chief of engineering" or some such type at Toyota.

Nice graphics but is life expectancy an apples to apples comparison of the quality of health care? I think most people with regular jobs leads lives that are far more stressful under a lot more pressure here in the US than anywhere else in the world. I think this has a huge negative impact on overall health and absolutely brings down life expectancy.

Our per person expense may be sky high but lets not write it off as total crap unless we can make some adjustments to those numbers.:confused:

[Thailandnotes]

Re: News: US healthcare is totally fucked up as is the US.

Thailand….

Popular hospitals in the major cities seem like opulent hotels…high ceilings, high speed wifi, restaurants.

Root canals 100 dollars, colonoscopies 500 dollars, major back surgery 2,500.
All the latest medical equipment, digitalized medical records,
Air fare from the east coast US, still under 1200.

There’s now even a “medical visa” allowing you to stay for an extended period to get treatment.

You just need a note from your……doctor.

[flintlock]

Re: News: US healthcare is totally fucked up as is the US.

Just because a country has nationlised healthcare does not mean individuals can't pay for theirs.

In the UK good employers include private health care as part of employees pay package, though it is taxed as a benefit in kind.

Ah, at last, some sanity. The issue keeps getting played as an either or situation. I was not aware any private care existed in the UK. I find that interesting. Isn't "private" health care supposed to disappear in the US if we have a public alternative?:rolleyes:

By the way, almost none of the replies to Jim's post actually address the issue, which is why so much higher cost in the USA. Until we see the real problem addressed( ridiculous costs), we really are not getting anywhere. US health care is a mess and the current system is unsustainable. What we are doing here is re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. We need to figure out how to get off it .

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: News: US healthcare is totally fucked up as is the US.

Ah, at last, some sanity. The issue keeps getting played as an either or situation. I was not aware any private care existed in the UK. I find that interesting. Isn't "private" health care supposed to disappear in the US if we have a public alternative?:rolleyes:

By the way, almost none of the replies to Jim's post actually address the issue, which is why so much higher cost in the USA. Until we see the real problem addressed( ridiculous costs), we really are not getting anywhere. US health care is a mess and the current system is unsustainable. What we are doing here is re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. We need to figure out how to get off it .

Re-elect NO one, for about the next 4-6 elections, at which point some politicians might begin to get the message. Problem is the electorate will be unable to do so, because the incumbent pols will continue to offer hope and goodies (pork barrel grease) to enough voters to continue their holds on power. For emphasis refer back to original thread title.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: News: US healthcare is totally fucked up as is the US.

1) Even if I were to refute the argument with premises based on fact, evidence, empirical observations, then provide a logical progression. I may still not change your mind?

2) What makes you think I would want to change your mind? You should search the facts yourself and make your own conclusions. I come to itulip or any other online information source to find information, engage in intelligent debate(sometimes questionable), and then make my own decisions.

Mind changing is for the oligarchs and media.

3) Here is a little post I wrote today against some America bashers, http://www.itulip.com/forums/showpos...6&postcount=69
It may have some historical parallels to population demand.

So my question to you is, what is the 'over supply' of humans? what definition are you using? What evidence can we find about the 'supply' of humanity throughout thousands of years of history? I put 'supply' and 'over supply' in quotes, using certain words and semantics like 'supply' load the assumption that humans are commodities.

You really wimped out in refuting my assertion that human life is cheap.

Perhaps you've noted one of my signature tags "...all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life." That is from Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, and it is one statement of probably many thousands I have read over my lifetime that sticks in my mind as an excellent goal that if achieved would result in life for humans on this planet as being much better. I think the sentiment in the statement is inarguable, and I choose to believe it could be achieved.

When there are people that have no hope for a healthy productive life, in my opinion the lives of those so cursed usually by the accident of their births are cheap.

Lets take Haiti, recently sucking all the networks there to report on the newest misery for that 9M people. According to https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/ha.html the unemployment rate is not quoted, but it is noted that there is "widespread unemployment and underemployment, more than two-thirds of the labor force do not have formal jobs; Labor force is stated to be 3.643M.

Did anyone in the US or world perhaps note today or yesterday a spike in the price of anything because Haiti had gone "off-line." What would have been the effect on the world if the entire country had collapsed into the sea and all 9M killed? That would have been a real tragedy because the TV networks would not have had a place to set up their cameras and there would no pictures of horrible devastation. Net effect of a total loss on the world is a relatively few people outside Haiti would no doubt lose friends, family, loved ones (as actually no doubt happened in this small tradegy), but by an large the world would go on and some other country would move down to the status of the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere.

I don't think humans are a commodity. I think humans are the most destructive biological species on the planet. I believe we have way more than the planet can support, and all the efforts that have been on-going during my lifetime have basically been a waste of effort as far as lessening the poverty of the world. I don't know how old your are, chr, but I expect when you are 50 years older than you are today, the bit below will still be being promoted by some of the then planet's do-gooders, unless nature has mercifully taken a mighty toll on the earth's population in the interim.

How about this as some sort of an "answer." http://www.poverty.com/

Hunger and World Poverty

About 25,000 people die every day of hunger or hunger-related causes, according to the United Nations. This is one person every three and a half seconds, as you can see on this display. Unfortunately, it is children who die most often.



Yet there is plenty of food in the world for everyone. The problem is that hungry people are trapped in severe poverty. They lack the money to buy enough food to nourish themselves. Being constantly malnourished, they become weaker and often sick. This makes them increasingly less able to work, which then makes them even poorer and hungrier. This downward spiral often continues until death for them and their families.


There are effective programs to break this spiral. For adults, there are “food for work” programs where the adults are paid with food to build schools, dig wells, make roads, and so on. This both nourishes them and builds infrastructure to end the poverty. For children, there are “food for education” programs where the children are provided with food when they attend school. Their education will help them to escape from hunger and global poverty.

The above strikes me as ridiculous, sounds good, but is ridiculous. Never has worked, never will work.