What is your answer?

[Jay]

I had dinner with my neighbors tonight. We had a frank talk about the state of our world and our country. We discussed the real issues that face us and our Constitution and the farce that is our media and the ignorance of the populace among other things. Communication with my community is my answer to this bullshit. I am a thoughtful citizen who is really upset at the inhumane power grab that is occurring. What is your answer, what are you doing? Sitting at home clutching a can of soup isn't an answer. Please post your ideas and efforts here. Liberty or tyranny? Screw them:

[flintlock]

Re: What is your answer?

Same thing you are. Discussing this mess with friends and family. They fall into two categories. Those who know something is wrong but oversimplify and blame it all on Obama or Bush or one party or another, and completely miss the big picture. And the other category, those who don't want to hear about it because it's not pleasant to think about.:rolleyes:

[Ghent12]

Re: What is your answer?

Same thing you are. Discussing this mess with friends and family. They fall into two categories. Those who know something is wrong but oversimplify and blame it all on Obama or Bush or one party or another, and completely miss the big picture. And the other category, those who don't want to hear about it because it's not pleasant to think about.:rolleyes:

This is what I have encountered as well.

I'm beginning to think that some problems cannot be solved, and that some periods in history are meant to be dark and bleak.

[doom&gloom]

Re: What is your answer?

I am considewring relocating from the US for a few years... My friends have heard enough from me. Some believe, many do not want to hear any of it as it disturbs them. Ignorance is bliss I guess...

[iyamwutiam]

Re: What is your answer?

I am considewring relocating from the US for a few years... My friends have heard enough from me. Some believe, many do not want to hear any of it as it disturbs them. Ignorance is bliss I guess...

The only place to go would be the Scandinavian countries who are still resisting. But the rest are basically in the same boat -Europe is as indebt to the 'Masters of the Universe' if not more so than us. And thanks to the crusades -we have been permitted to give up our rights of assembly, bearing arms and resisting -in any meaningful fashion.

Yes- I agree its bleak and disappointing. Most people have turned their attention on how they can thieve 'more' to live in a system that is 'robbing them'. So we are getting cops cheating on payrolls (over time), teachers, doctors, etc. Te professionals turn to tax shelters, and increased rates to stave of the truth and are much more focused on that (my investments/business) than the big picture -because I think the feeling of being overwhelmed is paralytic in terms of social resistance.

[raja]

Re: What is your answer?

I had dinner with my neighbors tonight. We had a frank talk about the state of our world and our country. We discussed the real issues that face us and our Constitution and the farce that is our media and the ignorance of the populace among other things. Communication with my community is my answer to this bullshit. I am a thoughtful citizen who is really upset at the inhumane power grab that is occurring. What is your answer, what are you doing? Sitting at home clutching a can of soup isn't an answer. Please post your ideas and efforts here. Liberty or tyranny? Screw them:

I've been talking with everyone I encounter . . . and I'm encouraged by what I hear. Everyone understands and agrees that:

1) The Rich are getting Richer (billion dollar bonuses, etc.)

2) The People are losing homes, jobs and retirement savings.

3) The Politicians make the Rules that allow this theft. They do not represent the People, they do the bidding of the Financial Elite.

The fulcrum point is The People's control over the Politicians through elections. The solution is to Vote Out ALL Incumbents.

Today, I had a FedEx delivery. I said to the delivery guy, "What do you think about all this economic mess?" We started talking. I presented the above, he agreed, and he told me he'd already decided to Vote Out the Incumbents.

Later I went to the Lumber Yard for some gate materials (chickens need restraint just like the Financial Elite ). I had similar conversations with the guy who loaded the lumber and the clerk who took the order.

In the afternoon, I ordered some clothes from Cabelas (stocking up before the cheap Chinese stuff disappears). After placing my order, I had a friendly conversation with the sales agent. He was eager to talk about the economic situation.

People know that things are going wrong, and they fear it is going to affect their friends, family and themselves in a bad way, if it hasn't already. Those of us who are a bit more financially sophisticated need to explain it to them in a simple way . . . and tell them what they can do about it. You don't need to get into inflation, deficits, balance of payments, or any other economic stuff. Just give them the simple truth, as presented in the three steps above.

Also, it's good to point out that the Financial Elite have been playing us for suckers for years, so this is not about Democrat or Republican. Warn them not to get fooled again by trickery and lies, because trickery and lies are the tools that the Financial Elite use to economically enslave the People.

That's what I've been doing . . . seems to be working with everyone I meet.

[flintlock]

Re: What is your answer?

I think about the only thing with any chance of success would be voting out every incumbent. But I think the damage has been done and there really isn't much we can do besides ride out the storm and try to come out as well prepared as possible when the smoke clears, which may or may not be in my lifetime. The country will just have to take it's medicine and hope it survives the process.

Yes people are concerned. But very very few have any idea of what the real issues are. So how far along can you get with any grass roots solution when people can't even agree what the problem is. People know something stinks, but can't or won't take time to find out what. So they blame the usual suspects( the opposing party, capitalists, government) and then go back to their diversions. I never hear in any of my conversations anything approaching what you read here on Itulip.

[aaron]

Re: What is your answer?

My experience has not been so encouraging. People I talk to either do not care or think they already "get it", but it will be OK just like every other recession.

For example, a couple of days ago I was talking to a boomer couple. When I brought up the fact that 1 out of 8 people in the U.S. were on food stamps (implying the horror of it all) their first response was "I wonder if we could qualify". No, they are not poor. Literally, though, their first thought was how can I "get mine". It was extremely disappointing. Basically, they believe they are financially secure and they will be OK. I guess when you are old, the future of the country is not terribly important.

In talking to a colleague at work, a genx'er, he explained that he understood all of it. He was very "knowledgeable" about the economy. We just need to give Obama's plans a chance to work. "You need to spend money to make money; everybody knows this". If we did not bail out the banks the world would have collapsed. Obama saved the world.

It is difficult to argue with somebody who is convinced they know what is correct (what Obama said). I feel like there is still a LOT of support for Obama out there.


I did see a guy on the side of the road in downtown Seattle yesterday who set up a stand with a bunch of signs... I was driving by too fast to read them, but I did catch one: "Obama is a Cracker".and the word "Lies".. If he is there today, I will stop and take some pics.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: What is your answer?

My experience has not been so encouraging. People I talk to either do not care or think they already "get it", but it will be OK just like every other recession.

For example, a couple of days ago I was talking to a boomer couple. When I brought up the fact that 1 out of 8 people in the U.S. were on food stamps (implying the horror of it all) their first response was "I wonder if we could qualify". No, they are not poor. Literally, though, their first thought was how can I "get mine". It was extremely disappointing. Basically, they believe they are financially secure and they will be OK. I guess when you are old, the future of the country is not terribly important.

In talking to a colleague at work, a genx'er, he explained that he understood all of it. He was very "knowledgeable" about the economy. We just need to give Obama's plans a chance to work. "You need to spend money to make money; everybody knows this". If we did not bail out the banks the world would have collapsed. Obama saved the world.

It is difficult to argue with somebody who is convinced they know what is correct (what Obama said). I feel like there is still a LOT of support for Obama out there.


I did see a guy on the side of the road in downtown Seattle yesterday who set up a stand with a bunch of signs... I was driving by too fast to read them, but I did catch one: "Obama is a Cracker".and the word "Lies".. If he is there today, I will stop and take some pics.

I think I may be the oldest critter around here, and with a sense of my own mortality and not having any children, I don't spend much time wondering how this is going to play out in the US. I have nieces and nephews who have children, nice ones actually, but they are not my responsibility. I have conveyed my opinion to them that I think the quality of their lives is not going to equal that of their parents who are all reasonably successful people financially and in having raised their children--so far.

I don't spend time worrying or reading much about the global warming issue, because however it plays out, it will not affect me. I am saddened to a degree of the uselessness of most of the politicians all over the world who to my meager assessment are not serious about most problems in finding possible solutions, but more so they are interested in just delaying hard decisions.

I envy no one who has grandchildren or prospects of having them. I think people should think hard about what future may exist for any offspring they choose to produce.

If alive, I am going back to voting in state and national elections. I probably will have a sign made and placed in my yard encouraging people to re-elect no one, and a bumper sticker with same message.

[Serge_Tomiko]

Re: What is your answer?

I had dinner with my neighbors tonight. We had a frank talk about the state of our world and our country. We discussed the real issues that face us and our Constitution and the farce that is our media and the ignorance of the populace among other things. Communication with my community is my answer to this bullshit. I am a thoughtful citizen who is really upset at the inhumane power grab that is occurring. What is your answer, what are you doing? Sitting at home clutching a can of soup isn't an answer. Please post your ideas and efforts here. Liberty or tyranny? Screw them:

What we are witnessing today is the collapse of modernism.

1. The constitution of the United States is a failure. The founders believed that the people, when given the chance, would select wise leaders. They were wrong. A new paradigm is now required.

2. The premise of the United States, i.e. liberty, is more clearly a myth than ever before. Whatever else we (collectively) disagree upon, no one would have bothered fighting the revolutionary war if they knew their descendents would become debt slaves, peons in a decadent system of society, their children corrupted by endless vice and media propaganda, and their cultural identity completely eradicated in - all in the name of "liberty". The people are free only to do as they are told and to buy as many products as our bankers will let us import from China. They are not free to be creditors from birth. They are not free to simply exist apart from the usurious economic system that dominates their nation. They are not free to raise their children in accordance with their personal values. They are not free to choose a community that reflects their personal ideals, goals, and shared vision. These are the things for which people fight and die.

3. All people are not equal. A casual stroll through most of the country will illustrate that most humans today resemble monsters more than men. Intelligence, culture, and ethics have all reached a level henceforth unknown in the history of mankind. The utilitarian notion that society exists to allow people to do as they wish has resulted in the devolution of man.

4. Our collective ideals are, in the words of Ezra Pound, against nature - particularly with respect to our acceptance of exponential increases in all things, We have reached the technical limits of our ability to extract essential necessities from this earth, and we are at this point gambling our future as a species and civilization on the hope that somehow, future generations of scientists will somehow figure out how to extract ever more food from this earth. We cannot allow every human the privilege of unlimited reproduction. We cannot have an economic system that demands from the people exponential increases in wealth and production.

4. Human existence requires more than mere sustenance. In the words of DH Lawrence, the human soul needs beauty even more than bread. Perhaps the most destructive effect of usury has been the collapse of any aesthetic framework, the very reason that civilization was founded. Contrary to libertarians and socialists - civilization was not forged in the wilds of an untamed earth so the bored masses could fornicate at will. Those ancient founders were motivated by a desire to strive for the transcendent. The modern vice of materialism has suffocated this essential human need.

There are a few principles that can guide us to a new society:

1. Leadership by Intelligence and Not Popularity. Modern society is based on a greed empowered by individualism, or the placing of the individual above all else; this is the result of underconfidence on the part of a large number of our people, and their political empowerment allowing them to misappropriate resources to ensure individualism takes precedence over any other thought or value. Consumerism, democracy, and media/popularity are the means by which we make decisions. For the future, we want to have intelligent leaders chosen by a subset of our population that comprises the intelligent and capable in making leadership decisions; instead of democracy, and the consumerist ideal that whatever idea makes money is the best, we would like a community of leaders picking leaders based on what is the best course of action for our society, no matter how unpopular it appears at first (most great ideas are initially opposed by most people, so it is unreasonable to expect that because most people do not like the sound of an idea, it is bad).

2. Not Equality, but Guaranteed Positions in Social Hierarchy. We are not interested in equality, as with it comes necessary economic and social competition and the resulting instability, because if we are all equal there is no way to stand out except by dominating others. We prefer a good living according to our abilities, such that except in cases of gross incompetence, we are able to work in the positions given to our ancestors and to gain a better living if we are dramatically more competent than others. However, the basis of our new social view is that each person is unique, and we cannot compare a plumber to a bank president and conclude that because one makes more money he is superior; we must each take our position in life and do with it what we can, but not attempt to draw moral decisions based on income and therefore force all of us into a vicious competition that eventually consumes us all. Competition leads to a lack of lowest public standard, in that whoever cuts the most corners wins, and impoverishes more people than it makes rich.

3. Our Natural Environment is Not a Resource, but a Living Entity of Parallel Value to Our Own Lives. Our environment created us and nurtures us and will remain important no matter how good our technology gets. Its survival is as important as our own. We must cease to see it as raw materials for a society, and see our world as civilization and nature coexisting. To this end, we need to end the cause of all of our environmental woes, which is overpopulation, and to cease dumping toxic effluvia and chemicals into our environment.

4. Natural Selection Must Regulate Us. Both as individuals and as groups, we need regulation by an external force. We must re-design society so that it disproportionately rewards those who have the balanced traits of intelligence, beauty/strength, and an inherent nobility to their moral thought such that they consider the whole over the individual and do what is right according to the balance of the cosmos. Further, we must enable natural selection to eliminate any community that is so unable to run itself that it perishes from natural (famine, war, disease) causes.

5. We Must Have Higher Values, Not Inclusive Ones. A fundamental trait of modern society is compromise; we value making sure everyone is heard, that every opinion is aired, and that all people are represented over doing what is best for the world as whole. It is this logic that leads to our unhealthy fascination with the individual, and hence popularity/profit. Our goal is to have higher values so that we constantly envision a better design of not only civilization but an idealized human, and strive toward it. Heroism, natural beauty, transcendence and harmony with nature are more important than any kind of equality or compromise or social popularity. By having higher values, we are always pushing ourselves toward a goal that will make us healthier, smarter and more noble as people. Through this mechanism, we offer people something better with each passing generation, and each set of parents can look on its offspring with pride in both their abilities and the world they will inherit.

[raja]

Re: What is your answer?

What we are witnessing today is the collapse of modernism.

1. The constitution of the United States is a failure. The founders believed that the people, when given the chance, would select wise leaders. They were wrong. A new paradigm is now required.

Perhaps you're giving up on the Constitution a bit too soon . . . .

I'm not a history buff, but I would imagine that the Founding Fathers suffered quite a bit of abuse before they were driven to revolution.

I'm convinced that the evil of the current situation is so obvious and unambiguous, and the pain that the people will feel -- and are feeling -- will be deep enough, that they will respond by voting out all incumbents and voting in people who represent their interests.

[Diarmuid]

Re: What is your answer?

Perhaps you're giving up on the Constitution a bit too soon . . . .

I'm not a history buff, but I would imagine that the Founding Fathers suffered quite a bit of abuse before they were driven to revolution.

I'm convinced that the evil of the current situation is so obvious and unambiguous, and the pain that the people will feel -- and are feeling -- will be deep enough, that they will respond by voting out all incumbents and voting in people who represent their interests.

Much of the issues we face today in my opinion are a result of centralization of power to the centers, as Lord Hutton famously remarked ultimate power corrupts ultimately, this coupled with a financial system which places no value on the sustainability of resources rather there once off utility, including human life, and demands exponential growth for its continuation has led to excess, greed and corruption in extreme, until these two areas are addressed fundamentally, the problems will remain imho, i.e decentralization of political power and reform of the financial system, these can only be addressed through education to address the ignorance and apathy which is also fundamental for the current corruption to continue. No small problem. Pain is a well known incentive though.

[Jay]

Re: What is your answer?

What we are witnessing today is the collapse of modernism.

1. The constitution of the United States is a failure. The founders believed that the people, when given the chance, would select wise leaders. They were wrong. A new paradigm is now required.

2. The premise of the United States, i.e. liberty, is more clearly a myth than ever before. Whatever else we (collectively) disagree upon, no one would have bothered fighting the revolutionary war if they knew their descendents would become debt slaves, peons in a decadent system of society, their children corrupted by endless vice and media propaganda, and their cultural identity completely eradicated in - all in the name of "liberty". The people are free only to do as they are told and to buy as many products as our bankers will let us import from China. They are not free to be creditors from birth. They are not free to simply exist apart from the usurious economic system that dominates their nation. They are not free to raise their children in accordance with their personal values. They are not free to choose a community that reflects their personal ideals, goals, and shared vision. These are the things for which people fight and die.

3. All people are not equal. A casual stroll through most of the country will illustrate that most humans today resemble monsters more than men. Intelligence, culture, and ethics have all reached a level henceforth unknown in the history of mankind. The utilitarian notion that society exists to allow people to do as they wish has resulted in the devolution of man.

4. Our collective ideals are, in the words of Ezra Pound, against nature - particularly with respect to our acceptance of exponential increases in all things, We have reached the technical limits of our ability to extract essential necessities from this earth, and we are at this point gambling our future as a species and civilization on the hope that somehow, future generations of scientists will somehow figure out how to extract ever more food from this earth. We cannot allow every human the privilege of unlimited reproduction. We cannot have an economic system that demands from the people exponential increases in wealth and production.

4. Human existence requires more than mere sustenance. In the words of DH Lawrence, the human soul needs beauty even more than bread. Perhaps the most destructive effect of usury has been the collapse of any aesthetic framework, the very reason that civilization was founded. Contrary to libertarians and socialists - civilization was not forged in the wilds of an untamed earth so the bored masses could fornicate at will. Those ancient founders were motivated by a desire to strive for the transcendent. The modern vice of materialism has suffocated this essential human need.

There are a few principles that can guide us to a new society:

1. Leadership by Intelligence and Not Popularity. Modern society is based on a greed empowered by individualism, or the placing of the individual above all else; this is the result of underconfidence on the part of a large number of our people, and their political empowerment allowing them to misappropriate resources to ensure individualism takes precedence over any other thought or value. Consumerism, democracy, and media/popularity are the means by which we make decisions. For the future, we want to have intelligent leaders chosen by a subset of our population that comprises the intelligent and capable in making leadership decisions; instead of democracy, and the consumerist ideal that whatever idea makes money is the best, we would like a community of leaders picking leaders based on what is the best course of action for our society, no matter how unpopular it appears at first (most great ideas are initially opposed by most people, so it is unreasonable to expect that because most people do not like the sound of an idea, it is bad).

2. Not Equality, but Guaranteed Positions in Social Hierarchy. We are not interested in equality, as with it comes necessary economic and social competition and the resulting instability, because if we are all equal there is no way to stand out except by dominating others. We prefer a good living according to our abilities, such that except in cases of gross incompetence, we are able to work in the positions given to our ancestors and to gain a better living if we are dramatically more competent than others. However, the basis of our new social view is that each person is unique, and we cannot compare a plumber to a bank president and conclude that because one makes more money he is superior; we must each take our position in life and do with it what we can, but not attempt to draw moral decisions based on income and therefore force all of us into a vicious competition that eventually consumes us all. Competition leads to a lack of lowest public standard, in that whoever cuts the most corners wins, and impoverishes more people than it makes rich.

3. Our Natural Environment is Not a Resource, but a Living Entity of Parallel Value to Our Own Lives. Our environment created us and nurtures us and will remain important no matter how good our technology gets. Its survival is as important as our own. We must cease to see it as raw materials for a society, and see our world as civilization and nature coexisting. To this end, we need to end the cause of all of our environmental woes, which is overpopulation, and to cease dumping toxic effluvia and chemicals into our environment.

4. Natural Selection Must Regulate Us. Both as individuals and as groups, we need regulation by an external force. We must re-design society so that it disproportionately rewards those who have the balanced traits of intelligence, beauty/strength, and an inherent nobility to their moral thought such that they consider the whole over the individual and do what is right according to the balance of the cosmos. Further, we must enable natural selection to eliminate any community that is so unable to run itself that it perishes from natural (famine, war, disease) causes.

5. We Must Have Higher Values, Not Inclusive Ones. A fundamental trait of modern society is compromise; we value making sure everyone is heard, that every opinion is aired, and that all people are represented over doing what is best for the world as whole. It is this logic that leads to our unhealthy fascination with the individual, and hence popularity/profit. Our goal is to have higher values so that we constantly envision a better design of not only civilization but an idealized human, and strive toward it. Heroism, natural beauty, transcendence and harmony with nature are more important than any kind of equality or compromise or social popularity. By having higher values, we are always pushing ourselves toward a goal that will make us healthier, smarter and more noble as people. Through this mechanism, we offer people something better with each passing generation, and each set of parents can look on its offspring with pride in both their abilities and the world they will inherit.

Thank you for the thoughtful post. It has given me much to ruminate over. I would add that the founding fathers had a healthy distrust of Democracy and designed the Constitution to reflect that distrust. They would be aghast at the evolution of their animal, but I think they still would have fought the Revolution knowing that the exemplary template they created, if imperfect, would have served as a beacon of light to all future generations.

You rightfully point out the unfair servitude that a usurious financial system has perpetuated on the world and the destruction of morality that has ensued. Where in your future hierarchical world do you see financiers and banking in general?

Lastly, how do you get from A to B? It looks like total economic destruction and reset would be the only means. In fact, when I read your post I was thinking that many of the thoughts you profess have been shared historically by perpetuators of genocide.

Would you suggest some reading?

[rabot10]

Re: What is your answer?

The problem as I see it regarding politicians is that they promise a “chicken in every pot” so no matter how bad it gets, (and it’s going to get very bad) the man or women who gets into office will be the one who promises the most too the most.

That will only end with education. How do things really work? Now that is education. “The truth will set you fee” herd that somewhere.
I also believe that we are all immortal spiritual beings that have no other fate then to come back over and over again. So the problems I and we face will have to be dealt with now or in the future. Guess we should do it now then.
Not to blow my own horn but I have donated millions to groups to educate and help society. Way more than my current net worth. Hope it helped.

[Serge_Tomiko]

Re: What is your answer?

Thank you for the thoughtful post. It has given me much to ruminate over. I would add that the founding fathers had a healthy distrust of Democracy and designed the Constitution to reflect that distrust. They would be aghast at the evolution of their animal, but I think they still would have fought the Revolution knowing that the exemplary template they created, if imperfect, would have served as a beacon of light to all future generations.

I think I was referring more to the common people of America who were far more free than anyone alive today. The founders had their vision, and rallied the masses, but had they shown them a movie that depicted our nation today - they would have simply stayed home.

You rightfully point out the unfair servitude that a usurious financial system has perpetuated on the world and the destruction of morality that has ensued. Where in your future hierarchical world do you see financiers and banking in general?

I don't see much of a future for them at all. If there is one, it will be far more decentralized, ideally on a community level.

Lastly, how do you get from A to B? It looks like total economic destruction and reset would be the only means.

Has it ever been any other way?

In fact, when I read your post I was thinking that many of the thoughts you profess have been shared historically by perpetuators of genocide.

I really don't know to what you are referring. If you add up all the people who have lived since say 1950 and call that group A and then add up the number of people who lived prior to 1950 going to back to the days homo sapiens first became a distinct species and call that Group B, you'd find Group A is larger than Group B. Whatever else can be said of "genocide", it has had absolutely no impact on the explosive growth of humanity.

Further, hundreds of millions if not billions will die in the future. This is a reality to which we must all adjust. It is unfortunate that some men have killed others, but their sins will pale in comparison to the vast human suffering that awaits us due to our hubris. Is that not the reason hubris was once considered the gravest of sins?

Lastly, the only genocide of which I am aware is the near total eradication of the aboriginal inhabitants of North America. Otherwise, while other groups have experienced losses at times, there are more of them today than ever before. If you are suggesting I have something in common with the American proponents of Manifest Destiny, you are mistaken. That is little more than a footnote in history.

Would you suggest some reading?

Well, the poets I mentioned are a great start. Plato's Republic, all of Nietzsche's writings, and Spengler's Decline of the West are also ideal.

The Unabomber Manifesto is also surprisingly articulate regarding some of these issues.