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  • Climate Modeling Nonsense - a view on AGW and the 'science' of climate modeling

    http://www.quadrant.org.au/magazine/...lling-nonsense

    Climate Modelling Nonsense

    John Reid
    The less a thing is known, the more fervently it is believed.
    —Montaigne
    In effect a new religion has grown out of secular humanism. Global warming is the central tenet of this new belief system in much the same way that the Resurrection is the central tenet of Christianity. Al Gore has taken a role corresponding to that of St Paul in proselytising the new faith.
    There are major differences, however. Whereas it is not possible to call oneself a Christian without entertaining the central belief in the Resurrection, it is certainly possible to be deeply concerned with the order and condition of humanity and so call oneself a humanist without entertaining a corresponding belief in anthropogenic global warming (AGW). Belief in a Resurrection which supposedly occurred some 2000 years ago is a matter of personal faith, whereas AGW is a scientific hypothesis which can and should be tested by observation. Imagine the consequences both to science and to secular humanism should this hypothesis turn out to be untrue and the dire predictions of the climate models fail to materialise.

    The quasi-religious nature of AGW is evidenced by the rancour which is generated when people like me express scepticism about the theory. Scepticism is an essential part of science which has, until recently, been a “small-l liberal” pursuit in which the opinions of doubters were respected. Now we sceptics are called “deniers” and, by implication, lumped in with neo-Nazis who question the Holocaust. The accusation that we are somehow in the sway of the oil companies and similar big business interests is commonplace and indeed is the chief argument of non-scientist supporters of the AGW theory. This echoes the “work of the Devil” argument of fundamentalist Christians; it is a mental trick by which the faithful avoid facing the real issues.

    Why then do a majority of scientists support the theory? I believe it is largely a matter of loyalty. Very few of us physicists know enough genetics to justify our belief in Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural selection but most of us support it because we believe it to be the outcome of rigorous scientific processes similar to those carried out in our own discipline. Most scientists would support the AGW theory for much the same reason.

    By accident of history I find myself in the opposing camp. I was trained as a physicist and was granted a PhD for my postgraduate work in upper atmosphere physics. In the early 1980s I joined the CSIRO’s Division of Oceanography and worked in surface gravity waves (ocean waves) for a time. Much of the theoretical side of oceanography entails fluid dynamics which, because of its heavy mathematical load, is regarded as a sub-discipline of applied mathematics rather than of physics. Because of this, in my view, many practitioners of oceanography and climatology have a cavalier disregard for experimental testing and an unjustified faith in the validity of large-scale computer models.

    Later in my career I was involved in running and refining numerical fluid dynamical models, so I gained some insight into how this modelling is done and how rigorously such models need to be tested. Naval architects and aerodynamical engineers do such testing in wave tanks and wind tunnels.
    Meteorologists regularly test model “skill”. Climatologists don’t seem to have a concept of testing, and prefer to use the term “verification” instead—that is, they do not seek to invalidate their models; they only seek supporting evidence.

    My scepticism about AGW arises from the fact that as a physicist who has worked in closely related areas, I know how poor the underlying science is. In effect the scientific method has been abandoned in this field.
    Back in the early 1990s when I was still working for the CSIRO and the early versions of the AGW theory started to gain currency, I was rather bemused by the passions which were aroused in my colleagues and the gullibility with which predictions of future climate disaster were accepted. Surely the jury is still out, I thought. I remained agnostic about the theory. More recently, after reading the literature and looking in detail at the output of one well-known climate model (HadCM3) I have changed my stand. I now believe it is nonsense for the following reasons.

    First there is the argument, commonly used by Al Gore and others, that carbon dioxide forms a layer like a blanket or greenhouse window pane high in the atmosphere which traps long-wave infra-red radiation, thus making the surface of the earth warmer. This is misleading. Certainly carbon dioxide is an infra-red absorber but, like most infra-red absorbing gases, its absorption rate depends on concentration and pressure and is at a maximum at the ground. The atmosphere is a gas, not a solid, and bits of it move up and down, carrying heat as they move. As a meteorological balloon climbs higher in the atmosphere, the measured temperature falls off with increasing height. This phenomenon, referred to as the lapse rate, has been known and described for more than a century. The lapse rate is determined by the thermodynamic properties of the gases that make up the atmosphere and has little to do with radiation. The convection term completely dominates the radiation term in the relevant equation.

    Second there are the climate models themselves. In discussions with colleagues, arguments always seem to come down to “But the models show …” Those who use this argument seldom have modelling experience themselves and share the lay public’s naive faith in the value of large computer models.

    I have been a fluid dynamical modeller and I know how flaky numerical models can be for even a relatively small chunk of fluid like the Derwent Estuary. The models are highly unstable and need to be carefully cosseted in order to perform at all realistically. One reason for their inherent instability is that the mesh size of the model grid (typically hundreds of metres to hundreds of kilometres) is always much larger than the scale at which friction and molecular diffusion operate (millimetres or less). These are the forces which act to damp down oscillations by converting free energy to heat. In order to get around this difficulty, in order to keep a model stable, it is common practice to set certain parameters such as eddy viscosity unrealistically high to compensate for the absence of molecular friction. This is reasonable if we are using the model to gain insight into underlying processes, but it means that fluid dynamic models are not much good at predicting the future. There is no exact correspondence between model and reality, and the two soon part company. Fluid mechanics and celestial mechanics are very different disciplines.

    I recently became interested in sea-floor volcanism and I had the idea of comparing the output of a climate model with the actual observations to see if I could find places on the ocean surface where temperature variations, attributable to sub-sea volcanoes, were significantly greater than variations predicted by the model. Using a variance method I found that the predicted variances bore little resemblance to the observations. It was obvious to me that the model had been over-damped; the viscosity term had been set too high, presumably in the interests of greater stability.

    Why then would such an over-damped model predict recent global temperature increases so well (which it does)? The answer is that an over-damped model will always regress to some sort of mean or trend line. Climate models include a number of adjustable parameters and these are tweaked to tune the model to known data. My belief is that early models did not show much increase in global temperature with increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide levels for the reason set out above. However, an ingenious trick was used to make this happen. It is called “water vapour positive feedback” and appears to be used in all the Intergovern-mental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) climate models. Without it, the climate models would show negligible increase in global temperature with increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide. Water vapour positive feedback is only an assumption; but, importantly for the modellers, it is an assumption which makes the models work. There is little experimental evidence that it is true, and radiometer data collected by NASA scientist Roy Spencer and others indicate that it is not true.

    Most of us have our cherished beliefs about how things work, such as, “If there is a heavy autumn crop of hawthorn berries it will be a cold winter.” Sometimes these are true and sometimes not. Many are just superstitions. Science and superstition are distinguished from one another by testing. Scientific theories are tested, superstitions are not.

    A scientific theory is not tested merely by looking for confirmations but by conscientiously trying to “break” the theory, by trying to disprove it. The AGW theory is encapsulated in the IPCC assessment reports. The models discussed in these reports have not been tested in this way. These reports include sections on “Verification and Validation” but none on testing. “Verification” means that only data which support the theory are examined and data which do not support it are ignored. Indeed the authors of this section in the IPCC Third Assessment Report specifically dismiss the need for rigorous testing when they state:our evaluation process is not as clear cut as a simple search for ‘falsification’” (Section 8.2.2 on page 474). Effectively what they are saying is: proper scientific testing is too hard and we are not going to bother doing it.

    The implication is that climate prediction, as it is carried out by those organisations which come under the aegis of the IPCC, is not science. It is a superstition similar to astrology or homeopathy. The IPCC is promoting the AGW proposition as if it were an established scientific theory, when it is not.

    If the IPCC were a pharmaceutical company it could face fraud charges for doing this. This is a good analogy. The IPCC claims to have diagnosed a planetary disorder, global warming, and has proposed a remedy, the limitation of man-made carbon dioxide production. They have produced no convincing scientific evidence that either the diagnosis or the cure is valid.

    When I discuss this with informed lay people I commonly encounter the response, “So what if the science is a little suspect. Surely it is a good thing to limit emissions anyway?”

    Well, no, it isn’t. A whole new regimen for emission capping and trading is about to come into existence. A necessary condition for the reduction of atmospheric carbon dioxide is that major carbon-dioxide-producing nations co-operate in limiting emissions. I believe that is highly unlikely to happen, because international diplomacy is insufficiently evolved for such a goal to be achieved. Given the highly emotive, quasi-religious attitude of many Westerners to this issue there is likely to be a good deal of resentment generated should some countries fail to live up to their obligations. Wars have been fought about less.

    This situation can only be exacerbated should global temperature continue to fall as it has been doing for the last five years.

    Not only will carbon trading lead to problems between nation-states, but internally different lobbies already clamour for specialist treatment. Carbon trading is proposed as a free-market operation, so avoiding heavy-handed government regulation. But some sort of authority will be needed to monitor the details of how much carbon is being sequestered or released in each situation. Carbon credits will be available for planting trees, say, but what happens when saplings are eaten by wallabies or mature forests are consumed by bushfires? Monitoring and accreditation structures of Byzantine complexity will need to come into existence.

    Will carbon trading minutiae favour the most effective lobby groups? The oil and coal industries are positioning themselves to appear benign. Natural gas is “cleaner” than coal, we are told, while coal itself is soon to become so much “cleaner” if industry pronouncements are to be believed. Who is to say otherwise? When a political structure is set up which is based on a lie, we can expect further lies to proliferate. Meanwhile, less influential groups such as farmers can expect to be hounded by “carbon police”.

    Whatever the status of AGW scientifically, it is certainly a political truth. It is now a key plank in the platforms of two out of three of the major political parties in this country and the third genuflects piously from time to time. Like Chartism and communism in earlier times, AGW is providing a rallying cry for reform. The zeal with which alternative energy programs are being pushed by government is perhaps desirable and long overdue. This push may have happened anyway as fossil fuel reserves become depleted and fuel costs rise; nevertheless AGW has certainly precipitated activity in this area.

    But this still represents an unfortunate distortion, because the emphasis is placed on limiting emissions rather than on limiting consumption. It is my view that Australia’s large coal reserves and large distances could make coal-driven railways a viable future transport option as oil and natural gas become scarce and expensive. However, the present demonisation of coal as a major “polluter” makes any switch from oil to coal unlikely.

    This country and the world at large have many real political, demographic and environmental issues to contend with. We do not need to create problems where none exist. The present hysteria diverts money and attention away from problems which do need to be solved. In my view, terrorism, the proliferation of nuclear weapons and pandemic disease are far bigger threats to my family’s comfort and security than are global warming and putative “tipping points”.

    There is a danger that conservation failures will be blamed on “climate change”. This happened recently when the removal of feral cats caused a rabbit population explosion on Macquarie Island. Incompetent environmental management resulted in such massive erosion problems that eleven species of birds are now threatened. Climate change has provided a convenient alternative view of the cause of this disaster. Likewise the flooding of oceanic islands by “rising sea levels” has more to do with the removal of coral reefs for construction projects than with global warming.
    Over the last few years, with remarkable rapidity, AGW theory has gone from a scientific curiosity to a politically-correct catechism. Nowadays it is not merely politically correct, it is politically essential. Somehow this nineteenth-century oddity has outlasted Das Kapital to become the banner of millions of environmentally concerned Westerners. It seems to fulfil a human need for sacrifice, a need to “put something back”. It is the ancient myth about guilt and sin and redemption in a new guise.
    People are entitled to entertain whatever apocalyptic view of the future they choose, but such ideas have nothing to do with science. Climate prediction is not science, it is pseudo-science, and sooner or later more real scientists are going to wake up to this fact.

    In the conduct of human affairs it is surely preferable that we base our actions on reason and evidence rather than on piety and myth.

    John Reid is a physicist who lives in Cygnet, Tasmania. His interests include alternative energy and the environment.

  • #2
    Re: Climate Modeling Nonsense - a view on AGW and the 'science' of climate modeling

    C1ue,

    You're a very bright person and I think you're one of the great assets here among frequent posters. I always read what you have to say. But I mean really, isn't there another, more appropriate site where you can grind this axe?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Climate Modeling Nonsense - a view on AGW and the 'science' of climate modeling

      Chomsky,

      Perhaps, but you'll notice I never initiate a post on AGW/anti-AGW anywhere except in Rant 'N Rave.

      On the other hand, the more-than-potential translation of AGW directives into political and economic impacts does make the debate relevant even from an economics standpoint.

      So please feel free to ignore the posts which are not relevant to your interest.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Climate Modeling Nonsense - a view on AGW and the 'science' of climate modeling

        c1ue... doesn't it ever make you wonder that none of the articles you link to are from scientific journals? If someone has the goods to debunk global warming it'd be kind of big news.

        And (anticipating your reply)... the idea that there's some sort of conspiracy to keep this nonsense out of the accredited science press is just ludicrous. Many scientists H-A-T-E each other. If they could prove 99% of their peers wrong, you can bet that they would do so.

        But they can't. So they write seemingly logical babble on their blogs or in Exxon-sponsored science "publications" - all with no peer review. And then they rely on people who don't like tree-huggers, liberals or the excess of government to spread their foolishness.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Climate Modeling Nonsense - a view on AGW and the 'science' of climate modeling

          Originally posted by WDCRob
          c1ue... doesn't it ever make you wonder that none of the articles you link to are from scientific journals? If someone has the goods to debunk global warming it'd be kind of big news.
          For one thing, I have posted peer reviewed articles and shown how they are attacked by the supposed impartial peer community.

          For a second thing, it is your assumption that scientists hate each other so much that they'd be interested in knock down, drag out professional reputation damaging fights.

          Scientists are scientists because they are interested in science, not in forming debating societies.

          Lastly I have already noted the vast funding differences between the AGW and 'denier' camps.

          Unlike the tobacco/lung cancer example which has been raised by santafe2 and others where the differential is no more than 10 to 1:

          ($45M in anti-tobacco/lung cancer research led by Dr. Fred Seitz

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Climate Modeling Nonsense - a view on AGW and the 'science' of climate modeling

            Dr. Richard Lindzen, the prominent MIT 'denier' also speaks to the modeling coefficient point raised by John Reid.

            http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/3...mate-feedback/

            The Perturbed Greenhouse
            If one adds greenhouse gases to the atmosphere, one is adding to the ‘blanket’ that is inhibiting the emission of heat radiation (also commonly referred to as infrared radiation or long wave radiation). This causes the temperature of the earth to increase until equilibrium with the sun is reestablished.
            For example, if one simply doubles the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, the temperature increase is about 1°C.

            If, however, water vapor and clouds respond to the increase in temperature in such a manner as to further enhance the ‘blanketing,’ then we have what is called a positive feedback, and the temperature needed to reestablish equilibrium will be increased. In the climate GCMs (General Circulation Models) referred to by the IPCC (the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change), this new temperature ranges from roughly 1.5°C to 5°C.
            The equilibrium response to a doubling of CO2 (including the effects of feedbacks) is commonly referred to as the climate sensitivity.

            ...

            The Test
            1. Run the models with the observed sea surface temperatures as boundary conditions.
            2. Use the models to calculate the heat radiation emitted to space.
            3. Use satellites to measure the heat radiation actually emitted by the earth.
            When temperature fluctuations lead to warmer temperatures, emitted heat radiation should increase, but positive feedbacks should inhibit these emissions by virtue of the enhanced ‘blanketing.’ Given the model climate sensitivities, this ‘blanketing’ should typically reduce the emissions by a factor of about 2 or 3 from what one would see in the absence of feedbacks. If the satellite data confirms the calculated emissions, then this would constitute solid evidence that the model feedbacks are correct.

            ...

            From 1985 until 1989 the models and observations are more or less the same – they have, in fact, been tuned to be so. However, with the warming after 1989, the observations characteristically exceed 7 times the model values. Recall that if the observations were only 2-3 times what the models produce, it would correspond to no feedback. What we see is much more than this – implying strong negative feedback. Note that the ups and downs of both the observations and the model (forced by observed sea surface temperature) follow the ups and downs of temperature (not shown).
            Note that these results were sufficiently surprising that they were confirmed by at least 4 other groups:
            Chen, J., B.E. Carlson, and A.D. Del Genio, 2002: Evidence for strengthening of the tropical general circulation in the 1990s. Science, 295, 838-841.

            Cess, R.D. and P.M. Udelhofen, 2003: Climate change during 1985–1999: Cloud interactions determined from satellite measurements. Geophys. Res. Ltrs., 30, No. 1, 1019, doi:10.1029/2002GL016128.

            Hatzidimitriou, D., I. Vardavas, K. G. Pavlakis, N. Hatzianastassiou, C. Matsoukas, and E. Drakakis (2004) On the decadal increase in the tropical mean outgoing longwave radiation for the period 1984–2000. Atmos. Chem. Phys., 4, 1419–1425.

            Clement, A.C. and B. Soden (2005) The sensitivity of the tropical-mean radiation budget. J. Clim., 18, 3189-3203.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Climate Modeling Nonsense - a view on AGW and the 'science' of climate modeling

              "This differential also can explain the reluctance to dispute: how many scientists are willing to risk their livelihoods when 99.9% of the grant money is on one side?

              It would not be surprising to me that many might not display moral courage in this situation."



              The general rule in academia seems to be that new ideas, however correct they may be, acquire legitimacy first after the old entrenched powers actually die off.

              That "Scientists are scientists because they are interested in science" is of course true to a certain extent, but the power grabbing sociopaths tend to elbow their way to the top even here. Recall the situation within the supposed science of economics as an example.

              I for one appreciate your posts on this subject, c1ue.

              As for modeling / simulation, about 80% or more of any really serious project is usually consumed by the mundane tasks of data collection & verification.
              Justice is the cornerstone of the world

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Climate Modeling Nonsense - a view on AGW and the 'science' of climate modeling

                I posted this on the other climate thread. It's worth a listen - he mentions the problems with simulation over measurement:

                http://itulip.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=162

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Climate Modeling Nonsense - a view on AGW and the 'science' of climate modeling

                  Thank you, c1ue, for your heretical posts. I appreciate the perspective being discussed in a manner on par with or exceeding that used by the zealots.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Climate Modeling Nonsense - a view on AGW and the 'science' of climate modeling

                    Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                    For one thing, I have posted peer reviewed articles and shown how they are attacked by the supposed impartial peer community.

                    For a second thing, it is your assumption that scientists hate each other so much that they'd be interested in knock down, drag out professional reputation damaging fights.

                    Scientists are scientists because they are interested in science, not in forming debating societies.

                    Lastly I have already noted the vast funding differences between the AGW and 'denier' camps.

                    Unlike the tobacco/lung cancer example which has been raised by santafe2 and others where the differential is no more than 10 to 1:

                    ($45M in anti-tobacco/lung cancer research led by Dr. Fred Seitz
                    You just aren't paying attention if you think scientists don't go after each other hammer and tong.

                    And you don't think that a scientist that actually had the goods on a proper debunk of GW wouldn't be swimming in research funding from all the companies that currently fund the cranks and pseudoscientists?! That's not very skeptical of you, c1ue. I say that if you showed Exxon an honest man with something that truly undermined the core pieces of the GW case and he'd have more money than he could spend within 24 hours.

                    Finally, I think more highly of scientists than you do. Science is messy as hell, but ultimately built on the moral courage to challenge the status quo. There are plenty of men and women out there that would not be willing to publish in opposition to the accepted dogma. But there are also some that would - if they had a case.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Climate Modeling Nonsense - a view on AGW and the 'science' of climate modeling

                      Originally posted by WDCRob
                      And you don't think that a scientist that actually had the goods on a proper debunk of GW wouldn't be swimming in research funding from all the companies that currently fund the cranks and pseudoscientists?! That's not very skeptical of you, c1ue. I say that if you showed Exxon an honest man with something that truly undermined the core pieces of the GW case and he'd have more money than he could spend within 24 hours.
                      The problem with your argument is that it assumes a scientist has the goods before doing the research.

                      Yes, I do grant that there are those - oil companies or otherwise - who would support a scientist once a clear anti-AGW thesis was successfully developed.

                      But who is going to fund a scientist who MIGHT (or more likely might not)find an anti-AGW thesis? The vast majority of research produces nothing of note.

                      This is where the 99.9% number matters: for those scientists conducting research in climate related areas - between the vituperation employed publicly against AGW skeptics and the huge ratio of funding of pro-AGW vs. skeptical on AGW - I can easily see why the easiest path is to not rock the boat.

                      Your argument is also invalid based on historical record in research: the vast majority of new breakthroughs in fundamental science are achieved by the public sector - despite the large funding differential in the private sector.

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_funding

                      In the OECD, around two-thirds of research and development in scientific and technical fields is carried out by industry, and 20% and 10% respectively by universities and government, although in poorer countries such as Portugal and Mexico the industry contribution is significantly less.

                      ...

                      A characteristic of privately funded research is that it is almost always profit-oriented. In other words, private corporations tend to devote a relatively small investment to fund research into a field that shows little prospect of being profitable in the near future, even if such research could lead to highly beneficial results (for example, drug companies may not want to invest in finding the cure for a disease if most of the people affected by that disease are too poor to be able to afford such a cure). Some protest that cures and treatments for rare diseases are not pursued due to the lack of profit potential. Supporters of commercially funded research make a utilitarian argument, saying that the fact that profit potential directs investment in treatment for diseases that afflict the many individuals rather than few individuals is a good thing, since it results in alleviating the greater amount of human suffering.
                      The sad part of this entire situation is that the government role in climate 'science' is now assuming the focused aspect of private research because the government has a strong 'profit' motive in AGW mitigation: new taxes, new bureaucracies, more influence over its constituency, etc etc.

                      This is quite different than the government role in most fields of research with the notable exception of defense.

                      Where then will the basic climate research come from?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Climate Modeling Nonsense - a view on AGW and the 'science' of climate modeling

                        I'll believe the scientist who agrees to accept a modest salary and decline any financial gain from his studies of global warming, backed by funds from a non-profit group with no political agenda( complete fantasy). Until then it all becomes lost in a sea of battling science funded by groups with a financial or political interest in the issue(on both sides). I've come to the conclusion we'll just have to check back in a few decades to see how things worked out. The level of BS and lying that is accepted in our society is just too great to overcome.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Climate Modeling Nonsense - a view on AGW and the 'science' of climate modeling

                          Originally posted by flintlock
                          I'll believe the scientist who agrees to accept a modest salary and decline any financial gain from his studies of global warming, backed by funds from a non-profit group with no political agenda( complete fantasy). Until then it all becomes lost in a sea of battling science funded by groups with a financial or political interest in the issue(on both sides). I've come to the conclusion we'll just have to check back in a few decades to see how things worked out. The level of BS and lying that is accepted in our society is just too great to overcome.
                          That is one way, but not the only way.

                          People often do have an agenda - that is why it is important to look into exactly what they are saying.

                          There's been a lot of attempts at character assassination of Lord Christopher Monckton, for example. I don't know what his credentials are other than having been a science advisor to Margaret Thatcher.

                          But his criticisms are very detailed and thus are easily independently verifiable:

                          http://www.aps.org/units/fps/newslet...7/monckton.cfm

                          This letter he wrote to the American Physical Society is extremely detailed and cites numerous peer reviewed research papers.

                          In addition, the actual published APS compendium also lists a "A Tutorial on the Basic Physics of Climate Change" in contrast.

                          http://ncwatch.typepad.com/media/files/july08.pdf

                          What is of the most interesting note is that originally one side of the presentation - the tutorial - was shown as is whereas Christopher Monckton's was topped with: "The following article has not undergone any scientific peer review. Its conclusions are in disagreement with the overwhelming opinion of the world scientific community. The Council of the American Physical Society disagrees with this article's conclusions."

                          This is amusing given Christopher Monckton was solicited for his work and had furthermore spent a great deal of time and effort modifying it per APS review recommendations. As a result, Lord Monckton wrote a letter requesting the editorial caption be removed:

                          http://icecap.us/images/uploads/Monckton_letter_APS.pdf

                          as a result which a new statement was applied to both articles in question as not being peer reviewed but that

                          The American Physical Society reaffirms the following position on climate change, adopted by its governing body, the APS Council, on November 18, 2007: "Emissions of greenhouse gases from human activities are changing the atmosphere in ways that affect the Earth's climate"
                          On a separate but related note:

                          The open letter to the APS Council requesting a review of the November 2007 APS Council position to another (below) is now over at 157 signatures:

                          http://www.openletter-globalwarming....ignatures.html

                          Greenhouse gas emissions, such as carbon dioxide, methane, and nitrous oxide, accompany human industrial and agricultural activity. While substantial concern has been expressed that emissions may cause significant climate change, measured or reconstructed temperature records indicate that 20th 21st century changes are neither exceptional nor persistent, and the historical and geological records show many periods warmer than today. In addition, there is an extensive scientific literature that examines beneficial effects of increased levels of carbon dioxide for both plants and animals.


                          Studies of a variety of natural processes, including ocean cycles and solar variability, indicate that they can account for variations in the Earth’s climate on the time scale of decades and centuries. Current climate models appear insufficiently reliable to properly account for natural and anthropogenic contributions to past climate change, much less project future climate.

                          The APS supports an objective scientific effort to understand the effects of all processes – natural and human --on the Earth’s climate and the biosphere’s response to climate change, and promotes technological options for meeting challenges of future climate changes, regardless of cause.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Climate Modeling Nonsense - a view on AGW and the 'science' of climate modeling

                            Originally posted by flintlock View Post
                            I've come to the conclusion we'll just have to check back in a few decades to see how things worked out. The level of BS and lying that is accepted in our society is just too great to overcome.
                            I find, flintlock, that I can come to understand such controversial matters to my satisfaction. It takes time, persistence and patience. It is perhaps to my advantage in such efforts that I enjoy being a tad odd, the only cow in the duck pond. It is best in such efforts if one has a lower need for social acceptance, a higher trust in one's own instincts, and a deeper skepticism for the ordained wisdom of ones elders, than seems to be the norm.
                            Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Climate Modeling Nonsense - a view on AGW and the 'science' of climate modeling

                              I realize that most of you deniers aren't interested in sound science, but whaddya know... Associated Press, of all companies, actually took a shot at doing some actual research and taking an independent look at one of the most pernicious and nonsensical GW denier arguments:

                              http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world...ct-174088.html

                              Comment

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