PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

[vanvaley1]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Well...what does turd research suggests? Sorry, forgot the scientific name for human leftovers found in the 'outhouses' in old caves. Did these folks consume a large diet of wild grains and/or wildlife? Are there any conclusions that can be reached about their health based on diet? Or...are there too few DNA dead bones and ancient turds around to come to a conclusion. On the other hand, we have a number of these on wall street we could do that should suffice for some comparative research.

[Guest]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

The Wall Street paleontological remains would likely reveal more caviar, steak tartare and foie gras in the turd fossils. Plus bleached bones with a lot of gouty big toes. :rolleyes:

Well...what does turd research suggests? Sorry, forgot the scientific name for human leftovers found in the 'outhouses' in old caves. Did these folks consume a large diet of wild grains and/or wildlife? Are there any conclusions that can be reached about their health based on diet? Or...are there too few DNA dead bones and ancient turds around to come to a conclusion. On the other hand, we have a number of these on wall street we could do that should suffice for some comparative research.

[aps1087]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Grains and other starch rich foods do provide something that vegetables do not...ENERGY. For those of us that are big into high intensity exercise, how do you suggest that we fuel for our activity?

Diet is not the only way to manipulate insulin sensitivity...exercise is the other biggie, and I would argue the more important of the 2 (diet/exercise) when it comes to increasing insulin sensitivity.

I think the more important take home message is to eat for your activity. If you are very sedentary, carbs are not nearly as necessary as if you are big into resistance training or sprinting or other high intensity sports. Trying to get in the necessary fuel with a fat/protein/veggie diet is next to impossible.

[metalman]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Grains and other starch rich foods do provide something that vegetables do not...ENERGY. For those of us that are big into high intensity exercise, how do you suggest that we fuel for our activity?

Diet is not the only way to manipulate insulin sensitivity...exercise is the other biggie, and I would argue the more important of the 2 (diet/exercise) when it comes to increasing insulin sensitivity.

I think the more important take home message is to eat for your activity. If you are very sedentary, carbs are not nearly as necessary as if you are big into resistance training or sprinting or other high intensity sports. Trying to get in the necessary fuel with a fat/protein/veggie diet is next to impossible.

stayed out of this until this one... bravo, aps1087!

i'm a runner and before i run i need fuel!



after... meat!

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Well the point Prazak, was that when hydrocarbons are prohibitively expensive (in about 5-10 years time actually), it's a fair bit cheaper to produce the grain, than the meat. Translates as "more affordable" to those poor sods all over the world that haven't got tuppence to rub together.

By the way Luke, I suppose it would be impertinent for me to inquire as to whether an investment forum for those of wealth (which relative to most in the world, we iTulipers are) might also be a display of hubris? I doubt many starving residents of Bangladesh invest in commodity ETFs or T-Bills.

I really don't recall Roger recommending or imagining that most humans would or could eat as he recommends, at least in the forseeable future. Rather I read him, as I read other such nutrition experts, as describing what they think would be a desirable diet, for those so interested and so able. If Roger had claimed that the World Health Organization or some such should encourage or mandate or recommend such a diet world wide as a matter of global public policy, that would have displayed a disconnect with reality not seen since Marie Antionette said something along the lines of "Let them eat cake" (in French, no doubt, though being a self-centered American, I have no clue how to say that in French.)

[Guest]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Trying to get in the necessary fuel with a fat/protein/veggie diet is next to impossible.

Probably this is not true aps1087. There is a lot of "fuel" in vegetable fats - Americans by and large, and the Anglo Saxon countries in general maybe, are not as aware of this as other nations food traditions where there are very many and varied vegetable dishes rich in fats. In Italy the rural poor would go out and do far more brutally hard work in the field than I am guessing triathlete enthusiasts could stand. Day in, day out. I knew some tree loggers in Tuscany, that were unbelievably strong. I'd put one of those mountain tree loggers up against any of your triathletes in *real* strength/endurance tests.

In America, they mechanize 90% of tree logging and clearing. Over there, other than the primary cutting, a lot up on the steep mountainsides was hauled out literally by hand - all day long.

These guys were strong as an ox, and could keep up backbreaking hauling all day long. They don't necessarily eat a lot of meat. They eat the plain old traditional Mediterranean diet - lots of bean dishes with semolina pasta in one form or another. The point being, this simple "poor mans" mediterranean diet produces men every bit as strong as the prize of American fitness, the triathletes.

I would not want to be an American football quarterback or triathlete, having to undergo an all day long endurance test with one of those mountain men. They have stores of energy that left me in awe, and they don't have anything remotely like the Paleo Diet. No exotic fasts. No exotic meat regimens. No nothing, except a diet that is very wholesome to cardiovascular fitness where meat has it's place, but not always the predominant one. Roger's dire warnings about the glycemic evils of carbohydrates in the form of wheat would be met merely with a blank stare by these mountain men.

[aps1087]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Luke,

I don't disagree that there is alot of fuel in vegatable fats. What I said was the NECESSARY fuel. Fat is not the fuel used in high intensity exercise...glycogen is.

Your example of "Mediterranean diet - lots of bean dishes with semolina pasta" is exactly what I am saying. You need these starch and carb rich foods to fuel high intensity exercise.

[Guest]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

I grew up with beans and semolina (on the humble end) of the diet. Fantastic stuff. You can go out and conquer the world if you have to after one of those simple meals. Metaphorically speaking, that is.

Luke,

I don't disagree that there is alot of fuel in vegatable fats. What I said was the NECESSARY fuel. Fat is not the fuel used in high intensity exercise...glycogen is.

Your example of "Mediterranean diet - lots of bean dishes with semolina pasta" is exactly what I am saying. You need these starch and carb rich foods to fuel high intensity exercise.

[rogermexico]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Thanks for the reply, and for bringing the topic up. It's been an interesting discussion.

I was going to make a suggestion to you that might also improve your health, but in reviewing your posts over the last couple of days it appears you may have discovered it yourself. I find if I avoid feeding trolls my stress level goes way down, and I believe my blood pressure improves dramatically.

Cheers.

Sometimes I'm a slow learner but starving the troll is working great.

Many are now passing on this bridge unmolested

[rogermexico]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

I'll have to give them a try. I have eaten plenty of other canned sardines over the years, but not found one that was all that delicious. Thanks.

And thanks again for the detailed and considered response.

I'm working on a longer post - What is the problem with grains?

I hope to have it ready in a day or so - it will address the glycoprotein question -thanks for your patience.

RM

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

I'm working on a longer post - What is the problem with grains?

I hope to have it ready in a day or so - it will address the glycoprotein question -thanks for your patience.

RM

I look forward to reading your further posts. Thanks for your insight and diligence.

[Guest]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Your "troll" is having a whale of a time pointing out the inherent conceits in the Paleo dietary thesis for the world, old sport. The implicitly elitist nature of this paleo-dietary wild-animal-rich consumption ethos in the 21st Century is as large and tenderly available an ethical target as a rare, ivory-tusked elephant's rump. We need to stress test it in Chad, or Angola or Bangladesh for general robustness and applicability beyond the gated, enfranchised communities of 2030.

[rogermexico]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Roger,

Thank you for posting your views and experience.

Thank you also those who also have contributed in this long thread.

I must say that most of my 1st order questions were addressed in the previous 5 pages of posts, but I still would ask one:

While humans indubitably were evolved to be omnivorous, studies of omnivorous monkeys like chimpanzees show that consumption of meat is not a daily occurrence.

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~stanford/chimphunt.html

This seems to show that even for highly evolved, community social, and tool using chimpanzees, meat comprises only 3% of total diet. The link also seems to indicate high seasonality of meat consumption.

Secondly I also note a previously endemic problem in rich people in the Middle Ages: gout. This was I believe due to a diet mostly meat and wine.

Lastly the point about grains is somewhat unclear to me. The point about insulin is an interesting one - certainly it is at a convergence point between the refined sugar/processed food and caloric restriction regimes. However, the real problem isn't necessarily the grains so much as it may be the ease of processing.

While it is quite possible to eat huge amounts of calories via other foods - it is damned hard work. The scientist who went around eating what chimpanzees ate experienced this - foods in nature are very low density in terms of calories vs. weight without cooking. It may well be that the problem is due to the combination of (cooking and modern processing) and grains allowing greedy humans to eat too much too easily and too often.

The point of all this may simply be moderation.

While eating meat itself isn't necessarily bad, it seems that too much of anything is the problem. I don't fad diet, but my friends who've tried Atkins have told me that they just end up eating less over time as meat with no grains is simply distasteful after a short while.

The changes in Italian diet vs. health may not be so much a quality as a quantity issue. Ditto for South Asians at home vs. the US - though a breakout of rich Indian women in India vs. the US would be fascinating (unlike most of Asia, big is beautiful there).

My personal motto is: everything in moderation, including at times moderation!

Chimps are omnivores and we share a common anscestor -we are not evolved from them - not saying you thought that but just wanted to make that clear. Chimps are certainly more towards the herbivore scale than we are, Using the comparative anatomy reasoning I used in a post on the original thread, we can compare the gut volume to the body mass of the animal for a clue to the carnivory/herbivory ratio. I made the comparison with dogs, large cats, humans and gorillas, and bovines and stated that the ratio was pretty concordant with the eating behavior observed in the wild. Gorillas are very herbivorous and have gut/body ratio like more like a cow than the dogs or cats that we know are carnivores. The gut/body ratio for man was closer to that of a predatory cat than the gorilla, showing that genetic kinship is not the determinant of food adaptation. For the chimp to man comparison, the gut/body mass ratio is about 4 times higher for the chimp, consistent with observed greater vegetarianism in the chimp and greater carnivory in homo sapiens. I do find it inspiring, though, that even relatively vegetarian chimps eat eggs, my favorite food.

Different primates have evolved differently under different food sources. If there were no genetic drift in food source we would all require nothing but glucose like primitive cells (and cancer cells, I'll expand on that later) and could never metabolise fatty acids, a major evolutionary leap in energy utilization that allowed longer term energy storage in animals.

It is indeed held by some researchers, and I agree, that it was necessary for hominids to evolve the ability to kill and eat large mammals in order for homo sapiens to develop. Large mammals were probably first exploited by humans as scavengers, who used tools to smash the bones to get at the bone marrow and brains rich in monounsaturated fats and O3 fatty acids respectively. Toolmaking eventually allowed hunting with spear, atlatl (an amazingly efficient primitive weapon) and bow. The pursuit of large game animals is considered to be significant as it is hugely efficient in resource expenditure, allowed greater mobility than strictly foraging, and larger mammals have much more fat than say, rodents. This is believed to have been (and still is) crucial to brain development in humans, both phylogenetically and ontogeneticlally.

The Brain mass to gut mass ratio of humans relative to chimps is about 12:1. It would be hard to feed infant humans with rapidly growing brains and mature adults without large mammals, and humans could not have moved from the tropics to fruit and vegetable sparse ice age europe with out substantial adaptation to carnivory.

Regarding gout - anytime you hear rich food blamed for something - the bias has been to blame the meat or alcohol. I was taught in med school that gout had something to do with meat. I was never given good evidence for this, though, and clinically it just seemed to correlate with being fat.
Recently, I came across an interview with Gary Taubes who was asked if there were anything he regretted leaving out of his massive book, GCBC.
He said he had exhaustively reviewed the literature on gout and it is 100% related to fructose intake. Fructose causes hyperuricemia which causes gout. Fructose is the simple sugar that is 1/2 of sucrose and is the predominant sugar in "natural candy bars", fruit. Of course, as much as I ridicule today's sugary fruit for being overrated - it is excess refined sucrose that the rich are screwing themselves up with, not beef or gin or oranges.

I'll comment on Atkins later, but one problem I have is that it treats carbs from white bread adn nuts like theya re the same. That said, who thinks whole wheat bread tastes better than asparagus sauteed in butter? My favorite poisonous carb was always pancakes, which actually taste like crap without sticky sweet syrup. If you get rid of the sugars, most carb dishes that aren't veggies taste terrible, IMO. The reverence for grains is like driving an unsafe car that brought you where you are today, but is ready to be junked. 10,000 year old survival traditions die hard.


I will post in more detail soon on both "What's wrong with grains" and "Insulin, the evil messenger we can't live without"

The degree of refining with industrialization and roller mills is probably more than half the battle, but not all of it.

[rogermexico]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Well...what does turd research suggests? Sorry, forgot the scientific name for human leftovers found in the 'outhouses' in old caves. Did these folks consume a large diet of wild grains and/or wildlife? Are there any conclusions that can be reached about their health based on diet? Or...are there too few DNA dead bones and ancient turds around to come to a conclusion. On the other hand, we have a number of these on wall street we could do that should suffice for some comparative research.

Post to follow soon. Thanks for your patience. "Coprolith" = turd fossil

[*T*]

Re: PaNu - The paleolithic nutrition argument clinic

Hi Jimmy

Average lifespan of paleolithic peoples is confounded by early mortality. Child mortality was very high and young males in some places had up to 25% percent mortality rates due to trauma (homicide/ warfare)
The relevant thing is if you can compare similar groups that differ mainly in diet.

As you have observed, for north americans at least, total elimination sugar and white four is half or more of the effect.

The Japanese lifespan is the longest on the planet. Much longer healthy lives than USicans. Almost no obesity. They eat mostly fish, rice and veg. Almost no meat. Now they are adding meat to the diet they are getting taller, bigger, fatter and unhealthier.

I have seen Japanese come to the UK or US and *explode* in size due to the change in diet.

Japanese food is reasonably portioned. And the key point is: they don't eat crap.


I should also point out that the same foods are different in different places. Rice in the US is different from rice in the Punjab from rice in Japan.
Milk is a particularly notable example. The cow's milk in the UK is not that great. I drink goat's milk here. In the states it's undrinkable and actually makes me feel ill. In Norway the cow's milk actually tastes good and feels like it's doing you good. The rancidity level is lower. No doubt you can get good food in the states but in my observation by and large people don't.
Then there is the factor of eating food suitable to your environment. Cold countries require more meat. The North Italian winter diet is different from the North Italian summer diet for example. So to characterise it as 'pasta' is to caricature and misunderstand.