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Re: Somali insurgents fire mortars at US congressman
North Korea has been and continues to be involved in maritime organized crime....one recent example is the Pong Su.
Piracy is one single aspect.
Large scale smuggling, large scale human trafficking, large scale industrial poaching are a few others examples as well.
It IS frustrating, but the vast logistical problems faced in this situation is only exceeded by the massive scale of total global maritime security issues.
If you disagree that's your perogative......I can tell you that from having worked maritime interdiction it's a big job to even effectively cover even a small patch.
Originally posted by flintlock
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Let me guess Lakedaemonian. You work for the goverment don't you? Not trying to be confrontational with you, but your answers sound straight from the government handbook. Why find an simple solution when you throw bureaucracy at the issue, and make things more complex than they need be? Perfect opportunity to bring in consultants, middle level managers, and other "experts" to figure this out. All at a cost of only a few hundred million dollars of course. Hell, Obama may even form a new department to deal with this. I mean, these are highly trained commando pirates we are dealing with here. :rolleyes: Anyone smell money?
I'll try to answer a few of your replies, point by point.
"Difficulty transporting Teams and weapon systems"?? I'm suggesting you place "teams" on the ship. No weapons systems. Small arms. NOT goverment people. Private security. They are transported by the ship itself. You act as if this is unheard of.:confused:
My background includes fairly recent and direct operational experience in sub-unit counter-insurgency/peace enforcement and littoral/maritime interdiction of naughty people.
Having training and experience in a quite similiar environment I can speak with some relevant hands on experience......riding around in RHIBs with Jan Hammer's Miami Vice soundtrack in my head grew old after the first teeth-jarring offshore patrol.
Example of ships defending themselves against pirates? Pretty much any naval vessel of any size before the 20th century . East Indiamen as a specific example. Armed to the teeth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Indiamen.
While speaking purely in a legal context rules of engagement are complex, but I'm pretty sure being fired upon by RPGs is considered grounds to defend your ship. Sorry but I'll take my chances with the law vs some 16 year old savage with a gun at my head. Dealing with stuff like this as a legal issue is absurd.
If you re-read my posts carefully I have not in any way said self-defense ISN'T an option to consider.
What I said is that the logistics of putting experienced pipe-hitters and their kit onboard and moving them LEGALLY from A to B to X to Y to Z is the biggest issue for individual vessel protection......simply handing weapons to crews may possess one fewer(desstination port laws against mercenaries) but a couple more problems as well.
Just one example:
A Liberian flagged freighter travels from Goa to Capetown...in Goa it takes onboard 4 Ghurkas, 2 GPMG, 2 rifles, 4 pistols......the team successfully repels some pirates approaching armed within 500m...the ship docks in Capetown...the ship is impounded, the crew is arrested, the Ghurkas are charged with firearms violations and acting as mercenaries...which are both offenses in South Africa.
Just an oversimplistic example of logistical challenges faced.
"Semi-auto sniper rifles are a poor choice" .Tell that to the SEAL snipers who toasted those pirates.
I have not read, nor am I privy to, the AAR from the recent action.
But I understand that 3 shots were fired from quite short distance, by particularly well trained individuals, while possessing excellent overall situational awareness/command & control, and the ability to seize the initiative.
It does not in any way relate to ships crew who's job is running a ship, not gaining highly specialized, and highly perishable marksmanship skills.
I agree a 50cal or other heavy weapon. would make a better weapon, but then you add cost and complexity. I know more than a little bit about firearms. I know thats not an easy shot.
I'm not trying to start a sausage measuring contest but to be honest, amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics....and as I have already mentioned the logistics are the problem of what many suggest in terms of arming commercial vessels.
But A few well aimed shots would deter most of these guys. Especially when they are trying to "pull over" a massive ship. Face it, they know these ships are under orders NOT to resist. Thats the only reason they try this bold crap.
I have no direct experience in the AO, but count as friends several who have. Firing a couple of rounds at these Somali pirates isn't going to make them go away......it is likely to stir up shit though.
Remember, their last contact with the US, THEY consider a massive victory......they are not necessarily going to act rationally as we think.
They have pirates in the China sea. How many Chinese supertankers they stopping there?
The Straights of Malacca...through which a lot of Chinese trade passes.....accounts for approximately 1/3+ of all known global piracy incidents.
My point is why not implement a multiprong effort to stop this crap. Is there any reason a ship should not defend itself AND look to authorities to help with the situation? Like you said, piracy goes on all the time. But when it reaches the point that we are becoming a laughingstock, the people responsible need to get on the stick and either shut it down or turn the ships loose to deal with it themselves. I'm sure you know about the Barbary Pirate wars fought in the early 1800s. At some point it does become worth swatting these flies with a sledgehammer. If for no other reason than to show others we won't stand for it. Jefferson understood this.
I do understand your point that it ain't as easy as just sending a destroyer out to sink them. I really do. The area is huge. The fact that legal issues are one of the biggest hurdles shows exactly how screwed up we are as a nation. But this is setting up a huge example to other pirates and if this is not stopped soon we will have an even bigger problem on our hands. I credit Obama for realizing this and not ignoring the issue. I'm convinced a heavy hand now will pay dividends down the road. Think people in North Korea and Iran aren't watching this?
I'll try to answer a few of your replies, point by point.
"Difficulty transporting Teams and weapon systems"?? I'm suggesting you place "teams" on the ship. No weapons systems. Small arms. NOT goverment people. Private security. They are transported by the ship itself. You act as if this is unheard of.:confused:
My background includes fairly recent and direct operational experience in sub-unit counter-insurgency/peace enforcement and littoral/maritime interdiction of naughty people.
Having training and experience in a quite similiar environment I can speak with some relevant hands on experience......riding around in RHIBs with Jan Hammer's Miami Vice soundtrack in my head grew old after the first teeth-jarring offshore patrol.
Example of ships defending themselves against pirates? Pretty much any naval vessel of any size before the 20th century . East Indiamen as a specific example. Armed to the teeth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Indiamen.
While speaking purely in a legal context rules of engagement are complex, but I'm pretty sure being fired upon by RPGs is considered grounds to defend your ship. Sorry but I'll take my chances with the law vs some 16 year old savage with a gun at my head. Dealing with stuff like this as a legal issue is absurd.
If you re-read my posts carefully I have not in any way said self-defense ISN'T an option to consider.
What I said is that the logistics of putting experienced pipe-hitters and their kit onboard and moving them LEGALLY from A to B to X to Y to Z is the biggest issue for individual vessel protection......simply handing weapons to crews may possess one fewer(desstination port laws against mercenaries) but a couple more problems as well.
Just one example:
A Liberian flagged freighter travels from Goa to Capetown...in Goa it takes onboard 4 Ghurkas, 2 GPMG, 2 rifles, 4 pistols......the team successfully repels some pirates approaching armed within 500m...the ship docks in Capetown...the ship is impounded, the crew is arrested, the Ghurkas are charged with firearms violations and acting as mercenaries...which are both offenses in South Africa.
Just an oversimplistic example of logistical challenges faced.
"Semi-auto sniper rifles are a poor choice" .Tell that to the SEAL snipers who toasted those pirates.
I have not read, nor am I privy to, the AAR from the recent action.
But I understand that 3 shots were fired from quite short distance, by particularly well trained individuals, while possessing excellent overall situational awareness/command & control, and the ability to seize the initiative.
It does not in any way relate to ships crew who's job is running a ship, not gaining highly specialized, and highly perishable marksmanship skills.
I agree a 50cal or other heavy weapon. would make a better weapon, but then you add cost and complexity. I know more than a little bit about firearms. I know thats not an easy shot.
I'm not trying to start a sausage measuring contest but to be honest, amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics....and as I have already mentioned the logistics are the problem of what many suggest in terms of arming commercial vessels.
But A few well aimed shots would deter most of these guys. Especially when they are trying to "pull over" a massive ship. Face it, they know these ships are under orders NOT to resist. Thats the only reason they try this bold crap.
I have no direct experience in the AO, but count as friends several who have. Firing a couple of rounds at these Somali pirates isn't going to make them go away......it is likely to stir up shit though.
Remember, their last contact with the US, THEY consider a massive victory......they are not necessarily going to act rationally as we think.
They have pirates in the China sea. How many Chinese supertankers they stopping there?
The Straights of Malacca...through which a lot of Chinese trade passes.....accounts for approximately 1/3+ of all known global piracy incidents.
My point is why not implement a multiprong effort to stop this crap. Is there any reason a ship should not defend itself AND look to authorities to help with the situation? Like you said, piracy goes on all the time. But when it reaches the point that we are becoming a laughingstock, the people responsible need to get on the stick and either shut it down or turn the ships loose to deal with it themselves. I'm sure you know about the Barbary Pirate wars fought in the early 1800s. At some point it does become worth swatting these flies with a sledgehammer. If for no other reason than to show others we won't stand for it. Jefferson understood this.
I do understand your point that it ain't as easy as just sending a destroyer out to sink them. I really do. The area is huge. The fact that legal issues are one of the biggest hurdles shows exactly how screwed up we are as a nation. But this is setting up a huge example to other pirates and if this is not stopped soon we will have an even bigger problem on our hands. I credit Obama for realizing this and not ignoring the issue. I'm convinced a heavy hand now will pay dividends down the road. Think people in North Korea and Iran aren't watching this?
Piracy is one single aspect.
Large scale smuggling, large scale human trafficking, large scale industrial poaching are a few others examples as well.
It IS frustrating, but the vast logistical problems faced in this situation is only exceeded by the massive scale of total global maritime security issues.
If you disagree that's your perogative......I can tell you that from having worked maritime interdiction it's a big job to even effectively cover even a small patch.
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