Somali insurgents fire mortars at US congressman

[WildspitzE]

Re: Somali insurgents fire mortars at US congressman

If you're saying the linked to article ("pirates in Somalia") is DC propaganda, then I respectfully disagree.

In reading his other posts, I don't think that is what he's saying. I'd be surprised if he was.

[WildspitzE]

Re: Somali insurgents fire mortars at US congressman

I would like to recommend this article about pirates in Somalia:

Thank you. This is the type of post that one comes here for, one which clearly makes a rational case for the flip side.

[WildspitzE]

Re: Somali insurgents fire mortars at US congressman

If they dumped waste they couldn't eat the fish. One or the other, not both. In any event waste dumping should be easy to detect assuming anybody cares. What's obviously wrong with Somalia is it's infested with Somalis. They've managed to ruin the land. Let's see, they cut down all the trees, turned the land into a desert by overgrazing. Let's see them blame that on somebody else. At some point they're going to have to take some responsibility. And then there's the constant tribal warfare and narcotics addiction. I'm just not very sympathetic. Here's a thought, turn Somalia into a gunnery range and shot anything that moves. Remember Black Hawk Down? Somalia is a good place to send liberals.

Tell your friend to look at a map. Somalia has the longest coastline in the continent of Africa. The CIA Factbook has it at: 3,025 km (For reference, and as I recall: the gulf coast coastline of the US is about 2,600km or our border with Mexico is about 3,100 km).

Ignorance is bliss, guess that shouldve been obvious by the rest of the pargraph.

[Diarmuid]

Re: Somali insurgents fire mortars at US congressman

Larry Summers Memo - I suppose many of you know this already but for those you might not see below

Quote

In 1991, Larry Summers signed a memo when he was vice president and chief economist of the World Bank concerning the handling of pollution in less wealthy lands. When an excerpt of the memo was leaked, more than a few people became upset. Summers initially took responsibility for the memo but claimed it was satirical. Later, blame for writing the memo was taken by aide Lant Pritchett. Pritichett went on to lecture at the Harvard Kennedy School and Summers went on to be president of Harvard.

If the memo was in fact intended to be humorous, whoever wrote it didn't understand that humor used against the poor and defenseless is not satire but ridicule and bigotry. The fact that Summers thought it funny should disqualify him from any government position.

The excerpt:

'Dirty' Industries: Just between you and me, shouldn't the World Bank be encouraging MORE migration of the dirty industries to the LDCs [Less Developed Countries]? I can think of three reasons:

1) The measurements of the costs of health impairing pollution depends on the foregone earnings from increased morbidity and mortality. From this point of view a given amount of health impairing pollution should be done in the country with the lowest cost, which will be the country with the lowest wages. I think the economic logic behind dumping a load of toxic waste in the lowest wage country is impeccable and we should face up to that.

2) The costs of pollution are likely to be non-linear as the initial increments of pollution probably have very low cost. I've always though that under-populated countries in Africa are vastly UNDER-polluted, their air quality is probably vastly inefficiently low compared to Los Angeles or Mexico City. Only the lamentable facts that so much pollution is generated by non-tradable industries (transport, electrical generation) and that the unit transport costs of solid waste are so high prevent world welfare enhancing trade in air pollution and waste.

3) The demand for a clean environment for aesthetic and health reasons is likely to have very high income elasticity. The concern over an agent that causes a one in a million change in the odds of prostrate cancer is obviously going to be much higher in a country where people survive to get prostrate cancer than in a country where under 5 mortality is is 200 per thousand. Also, much of the concern over industrial atmosphere discharge is about visibility impairing particulates. These discharges may have very little direct health impact. Clearly trade in goods that embody aesthetic pollution concerns could be welfare enhancing. While production is mobile the consumption of pretty air is a non-tradable.

The problem with the arguments against all of these proposals for more pollution in LDCs (intrinsic rights to certain goods, moral reasons, social concerns, lack of adequate markets, etc.) could be turned around and used more or less effectively against every Bank proposal for liberalization.

While Summers and Pritchett survived the memo incident, the Brazilian secretary of the environment was not as fortunate. He was fired after writing to Summers:

"Your reasoning is perfectly logical but totally insane ... Your thoughts [provide] a concrete example of the unbelievable alienation, reductionist thinking, social ruthlessness and the arrogant ignorance of many conventional 'economists' concerning the nature of the world we live in ... If the World Bank keeps you as vice president it will lose all credibility."

[petertribo]

Re: Somali insurgents fire mortars at US congressman

Ehh... care to elaborate?

I meant that the Somalia Save Captain treatment by MSM was lies and propaganda. I would also have questions about what all these ships are doing in this area, if they are actually carrying "relief supplies", wqr material or dumping hazardous waste themselves.

In a related America-controls-the-seas incident like this also discussed on this board, the US ship incident in the South China sea, I looked a bit for exact info and could find only sketchy descriptions. According to what I found, that ship was a private ship doing "work" for the US Navy. It was within the two hundred mile economic zone limit of CHINA! Well, can you imagine a Chinese contracted mystery ship doing work within our two hundred mile limit? What a reaction and FOX field day there would be. Really dangerous games to be playing. This incident of course very reminiscent of the Gulf Of Tonkin Fraud.

[flintlock]

Re: Somali insurgents fire mortars at US congressman

Are some of you trying to imply that these pirates are committing piracy because of some patriotic fervor to protect their shores?? Or that they are driven to it? While there may well indeed be some funny business going on regarding dumping in their waters, I don't think what these criminals are doing has anything to do with anything but making easy money. Somalia has been a hell hole for a long long time, and this drives some of these people to extreme measures, but you can hardly blame that on some vast world conspiracy. These pirates are ranging over 300 miles off shore! Somalia didn't need nuclear dumping and over fishing to make it a shit hole. They were doing a great job of that themselves, long before. If they truly were "patriots" and acting in their "nations" best interest, they'd be sinking the ships, not holding them for ransom. Or better, they'd actually support someone else besides the local warlord. Dumping nukes and illegal fishing is wrong, but two wrongs don't make a right. The way these people treat each other, to blame the rest of the world for their behavior is seriously weak.

That article on pirates made me laugh out loud. "Ah the noble pirates!"

[don]

Re: Somali insurgents fire mortars at US congressman

Pirates, excluding liberal fantasies, only get good press from their homeland or shrouded in the romantic mists of history.

Sir John Hawkins

1532-1595

John Hawkins was the prototype Elizabethan pirate, with a merchant's eye for profit and a mariner's love of the sea. Born to a wealthy Plymouth trading family, he went to sea young and soon moved into trafficking slaves.


He bought slaves in west Africa and sold them to the Spanish colonies in the West Indies, often raiding Spanish ships as he went. He grew rich, and Elizabeth I, delighted by the profits, became his backer.

Let's see. he was typical. Came from a wealthy family. Broke his business cherry buying and selling people. Did business with the Spanish while robbing them at sea. Neat trick, that one. And his sovereign thought he was the cat's pajamas.

It's a pirate's life for me.....;)

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Somali insurgents fire mortars at US congressman

I continue to predict (since the election of Obama with his team including folks such as Susan Rice) that the U.S. in Obama's first term will invade Somalia.

I completely disagree.

What's to gain, besides absolutely nothing, from invading Somalia?

It is a textbook definition of failed state.

The cost of deploying and maintaining an effective peace enforcement footprint in Somalia would be massive.

The US and it's partner nations can always use Djibouti in the North and Kenya in the South as staging grounds for any VERY limited duration ops into Somalia with a far, far smaller footprint.

Piracy globally is a quite serious problem....this is not the only high tempo area globally for Piracy.

The US Navy and most of the world's navies are configured for conventional naval operations......countering piracy is like smashing flies with a sledgehammer

All the technology in the world cannot easily discriminate between a legitimate 3rd world fishing boat operation and pirates until they are within minutes of a hostile boarding.

It requires significant resources in terms of boats and manpower to accomplish mass VBSS(Visit, Board, Search, and Seizure) for a considerable period of time over a large area.

Arming crews and/or placing small direct fire support weapon teams on board each vessel transiting the area has numerous operationa/logistical problems as well:

Arming crews comes with serious training/internationally recognized rules of engagement issues

Arming crews comes with serious issues in regards to legality of onboard weapon systems in various territorial jurisdictions

Using trained weapons teams poses logistical problems of transporting teams and their weapon systems back and forth between many transit points as well as the same legality issues as above.

These are just a FEW of the problems that require solutions.

It's not the movies........it's not a simple snap of the fingers fix.

Trust me, if it were as simple as putting a 4 man team with a pair of Gimpys onboard each large vessel to burn anyone within 500m to solve the problem it would already have been done.

[flintlock]

Re: Somali insurgents fire mortars at US congressman

I completely disagree.

What's to gain, besides absolutely nothing, from invading Somalia?

It is a textbook definition of failed state.

The cost of deploying and maintaining an effective peace enforcement footprint in Somalia would be massive.

The US and it's partner nations can always use Djibouti in the North and Kenya in the South as staging grounds for any VERY limited duration ops into Somalia with a far, far smaller footprint.

Piracy globally is a quite serious problem....this is not the only high tempo area globally for Piracy.

The US Navy and most of the world's navies are configured for conventional naval operations......countering piracy is like smashing flies with a sledgehammer

All the technology in the world cannot easily discriminate between a legitimate 3rd world fishing boat operation and pirates until they are within minutes of a hostile boarding.

It requires significant resources in terms of boats and manpower to accomplish mass VBSS(Visit, Board, Search, and Seizure) for a considerable period of time over a large area.

Arming crews and/or placing small direct fire support weapon teams on board each vessel transiting the area has numerous operationa/logistical problems as well:

Arming crews comes with serious training/internationally recognized rules of engagement issues

Arming crews comes with serious issues in regards to legality of onboard weapon systems in various territorial jurisdictions

Using trained weapons teams poses logistical problems of transporting teams and their weapon systems back and forth between many transit points as well as the same legality issues as above.

These are just a FEW of the problems that require solutions.

It's not the movies........it's not a simple snap of the fingers fix.

Trust me, if it were as simple as putting a 4 man team with a pair of Gimpys onboard each large vessel to burn anyone within 500m to solve the problem it would already have been done.

I agree we won't be invading Somalia. Why? What gain? It won't happen. Been there done that.

I disagree that arming merchant vessels traveling the area should pose any big problem. Historically, they did it and it worked quite well. Now days the lawyers and bureaucrats get bent out of shape when people actually act in a self sufficient manner and defend themselves without feeling the need to get them involved. Operational problems?? Rules of engagement are pretty simple. When they start spraying your ship with AK and RPG fire, let em have it. Its downright silly what is going on over there. You telling me these shipping companies can't afford a pair of Blackwater snipers to protect a multi million dollar vessel with cargo worth millions as well? Forget Blackwater. A couple of recently discharged vets with a few semi auto sniper rifles would do the trick.

Ever seen the disparity in size of these vessels? In the past ships would heave to when they saw they were outgunned or couldn't outrun the pirates. The Somalis are using small open boats with limited range to "pull over" huge ocean going vessels. I'm not saying every incident could be avoided, some ships are approached at night and under circumstances that can't be helped. But all it would take is the knowledge that the ships might fight back to severely curtail the piracy.

I'm convinced this is more about government being control freaks and wanting protect its turf than it is about anything else. Golly, what if people realized they didn't need the government to get involved every time a half dozen goons pulled up alonside a supertanker? Pretty soon they might realize we don't need them so much and actually have to shrink the damn size of government.

I also find it amusing we can assemble in minutes a police team armed to the teeth outside a home where somebody was seen buying pot, but can't figure out a way to stop pirates who fire on our ships, take hostages, and basically flip a bird at international law.

[snakela]

Re: Somali insurgents fire mortars at US congressman

An invasion would provide political theater, thats all. If these pirates actually posed a real problem the US military could get rid of some more of its old ordnance into the "camps" to make some examples.

Here's a thought: they'll blame pirate activity for the increased cost of food and other goods?

[cjppjc]

Re: Somali insurgents fire mortars at US congressman

Here's a thought: they'll blame pirate activity for the increased cost of food and other goods?

That could have legs.

[FRED]

Re: Somali insurgents fire mortars at US congressman

An invasion would provide political theater, thats all. If these pirates actually posed a real problem the US military could get rid of some more of its old ordnance into the "camps" to make some examples.

Here's a thought: they'll blame pirate activity for the increased cost of food and other goods?

That approach worked last time. The 1970s inflation was effectively blamed on OPEC, but who printed the money to pay for the oil?

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Somali insurgents fire mortars at US congressman

I disagree that arming merchant vessels traveling the area should pose any big problem.

YOu are seriously underestimating the complex logistics required to manage the transport of teams, and more importantly weapon systems between many points of origination and many points of destination.

Historically, they did it and it worked quite well.

What examples are you specifically referring to that would be reasonably applicable to this situation?


Now days the lawyers and bureaucrats get bent out of shape when people actually act in a self sufficient manner and defend themselves without feeling the need to get them involved. Operational problems?? Rules of engagement are pretty simple.

That's simply not true. My personal experience with rules of engagement is that they are very specific, and they take considerable negotiation amongst ALL relevant players as well as a need to abide by the laws of armed conflict.

When they start spraying your ship with AK and RPG fire, let em have it.

Again it's a lot more complex than that.

Its downright silly what is going on over there. You telling me these shipping companies can't afford a pair of Blackwater snipers to protect a multi million dollar vessel with cargo worth millions as well? Forget Blackwater. A couple of recently discharged vets with a few semi auto sniper rifles would do the trick.

"semi-auto sniper rifles" are a poor choice. Effective fire from a bobbing boat to another bobbing boat, possibly traveling at velocity, in pretty much any sea state, is near impossible for most.

Ever seen the disparity in size of these vessels? In the past ships would heave to when they saw they were outgunned or couldn't outrun the pirates. The Somalis are using small open boats with limited range to "pull over" huge ocean going vessels.

Again, most available naval resources equate to my analogy of using a sledgehammer to kill a swarm of flies.

I also find it amusing we can assemble in minutes a police team armed to the teeth outside a home where somebody was seen buying pot, but can't figure out a way to stop pirates who fire on our ships, take hostages, and basically flip a bird at international law.

Police SWAT/AOS teams typically operate in extremely dense population centres allowing for short response times.

Police SWAT/AOS teams typically operate in areas with substantial infrastructure to effectively leverage.

The area of operations is MASSIVE...and force multipliers like Helos, UAVs, maritime aircraft, radar, thermal imaging, etc can go a long way to HELP reduce the number of warm bodies and expensive platforms needed to effectively patrol it......but they can only go so far.

To effectively contain the problem, it requires a massive footprint.....

Piracy has been around as long as prostitution...it really can't be stopped, only mitigated.

With a few peers working the regional private security circuit at the coalface, I can assure you an upper management wave of the hand solution is not an easily implemented solution......there's a sh!tload of legal/regulatory/logistical hurdles to implement armed teams defending individual shipping traffic along that sea route.

[flintlock]

Re: Somali insurgents fire mortars at US congressman

Let me guess Lakedaemonian. You work for the goverment don't you? Not trying to be confrontational with you, but your answers sound straight from the government handbook. Why find an simple solution when you throw bureaucracy at the issue, and make things more complex than they need be? Perfect opportunity to bring in consultants, middle level managers, and other "experts" to figure this out. All at a cost of only a few hundred million dollars of course. Hell, Obama may even form a new department to deal with this. I mean, these are highly trained commando pirates we are dealing with here. :rolleyes: Anyone smell money?

I'll try to answer a few of your replies, point by point.

"Difficulty transporting Teams and weapon systems"?? I'm suggesting you place "teams" on the ship. No weapons systems. Small arms. NOT goverment people. Private security. They are transported by the ship itself. You act as if this is unheard of.:confused:



Example of ships defending themselves against pirates? Pretty much any naval vessel of any size before the 20th century . East Indiamen as a specific example. Armed to the teeth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Indiamen.

While speaking purely in a legal context rules of engagement are complex, but I'm pretty sure being fired upon by RPGs is considered grounds to defend your ship. Sorry but I'll take my chances with the law vs some 16 year old savage with a gun at my head. Dealing with stuff like this as a legal issue is absurd.

"Semi-auto sniper rifles are a poor choice" .Tell that to the SEAL snipers who toasted those pirates. I agree a 50cal or other heavy weapon. would make a better weapon, but then you add cost and complexity. I know more than a little bit about firearms. I know thats not an easy shot. But A few well aimed shots would deter most of these guys. Especially when they are trying to "pull over" a massive ship. Face it, they know these ships are under orders NOT to resist. Thats the only reason they try this bold crap. They have pirates in the China sea. How many Chinese supertankers they stopping there?

My point is why not implement a multiprong effort to stop this crap. Is there any reason a ship should not defend itself AND look to authorities to help with the situation? Like you said, piracy goes on all the time. But when it reaches the point that we are becoming a laughingstock, the people responsible need to get on the stick and either shut it down or turn the ships loose to deal with it themselves. I'm sure you know about the Barbary Pirate wars fought in the early 1800s. At some point it does become worth swatting these flies with a sledgehammer. If for no other reason than to show others we won't stand for it. Jefferson understood this.

I do understand your point that it ain't as easy as just sending a destroyer out to sink them. I really do. The area is huge. The fact that legal issues are one of the biggest hurdles shows exactly how screwed up we are as a nation. But this is setting up a huge example to other pirates and if this is not stopped soon we will have an even bigger problem on our hands. I credit Obama for realizing this and not ignoring the issue. I'm convinced a heavy hand now will pay dividends down the road. Think people in North Korea and Iran aren't watching this?

[rjwjr]

Re: Somali insurgents fire mortars at US congressman

Larry Summers Memo - I suppose many of you know this already but for those you might not see below

Quote

In 1991, Larry Summers signed a memo when he was vice president and chief economist of the World Bank concerning the handling of pollution in less wealthy lands. When an excerpt of the memo was leaked, more than a few people became upset. Summers initially took responsibility for the memo but claimed it was satirical. Later, blame for writing the memo was taken by aide Lant Pritchett. Pritichett went on to lecture at the Harvard Kennedy School and Summers went on to be president of Harvard.

If the memo was in fact intended to be humorous, whoever wrote it didn't understand that humor used against the poor and defenseless is not satire but ridicule and bigotry. The fact that Summers thought it funny should disqualify him from any government position.

The excerpt:

'Dirty' Industries: Just between you and me, shouldn't the World Bank be encouraging MORE migration of the dirty industries to the LDCs [Less Developed Countries]? I can think of three reasons:

1) The measurements of the costs of health impairing pollution depends on the foregone earnings from increased morbidity and mortality. From this point of view a given amount of health impairing pollution should be done in the country with the lowest cost, which will be the country with the lowest wages. I think the economic logic behind dumping a load of toxic waste in the lowest wage country is impeccable and we should face up to that.

2) The costs of pollution are likely to be non-linear as the initial increments of pollution probably have very low cost. I've always though that under-populated countries in Africa are vastly UNDER-polluted, their air quality is probably vastly inefficiently low compared to Los Angeles or Mexico City. Only the lamentable facts that so much pollution is generated by non-tradable industries (transport, electrical generation) and that the unit transport costs of solid waste are so high prevent world welfare enhancing trade in air pollution and waste.

3) The demand for a clean environment for aesthetic and health reasons is likely to have very high income elasticity. The concern over an agent that causes a one in a million change in the odds of prostrate cancer is obviously going to be much higher in a country where people survive to get prostrate cancer than in a country where under 5 mortality is is 200 per thousand. Also, much of the concern over industrial atmosphere discharge is about visibility impairing particulates. These discharges may have very little direct health impact. Clearly trade in goods that embody aesthetic pollution concerns could be welfare enhancing. While production is mobile the consumption of pretty air is a non-tradable.

The problem with the arguments against all of these proposals for more pollution in LDCs (intrinsic rights to certain goods, moral reasons, social concerns, lack of adequate markets, etc.) could be turned around and used more or less effectively against every Bank proposal for liberalization.

While Summers and Pritchett survived the memo incident, the Brazilian secretary of the environment was not as fortunate. He was fired after writing to Summers:

"Your reasoning is perfectly logical but totally insane ... Your thoughts [provide] a concrete example of the unbelievable alienation, reductionist thinking, social ruthlessness and the arrogant ignorance of many conventional 'economists' concerning the nature of the world we live in ... If the World Bank keeps you as vice president it will lose all credibility."

Though not current, this seems like a bigger story than the pirates IMO. Stories like this, in which the asswipe gets rewarded by the corrupt political/power system, while the spot-on Brazilian sec'y of the environment gets fired are just incredibly amazing and sad. It would be nice to live in a world in which the truly good guys get rewarded, and the asswipes get thrown-out on their ear. Summers claimed it was "satirical"...puhlease. Over and over these guys show their total arrogance and disdain for the common man.