The Crisis of College Affordability

[charliebrown]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

yes, your're right sharky, we are splitting hairs a little bit here, but how did this same model work in the 80's when my tuition bill was 2K per year?

If the prof is taking home 120K today with 16K tuition, then in 1980 he was taking home 120/8 = 15K @ 2K per year tuition, all other things being equal. i made 12K a year in 80s in a non union job unloading trucks. i lived with my parents. I dont think 15K is a livable wage in the 80's. If i remember right 30K was a decent wage.

Was the state kicking in much more then than now? what has changed?

[charliebrown]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

Ok, i have one more idea. back in the 80's what was the level of money for research flowing into the university? I was in the college of enigneering and saw profs working on grants for DOD, AT&T, DOW chem, DOE, etc. Has this money dried up? Leaving the university with only two income streams tuition and state/federal assistance??

[Sharky]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

Was the state kicking in much more then than now? what has changed?

First, inflation. $2000 in 1980 had the buying power of roughly $12K today, according to shadowstats.com (makes me sick when I think what I was earning back then...).

Add to that faster-than-inflation increases in medical benefits, and a general trend for more and more benefits for university staff.

Although I don't have any stats to back me up, I'm pretty sure the trend in number of hours taught per professor has been declining.

Inflation-adjusted government subsidies have been going down.

There has also been more competition for available spots, which motivates universities to increase their fees.

Seems to me those increases on top of inflation pretty easily add up to another 33% on top of $12K, which would bring it up to $16K.

[cjppjc]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

Just six months ago his wife was telling me how they were going to clean up in this down housing market by buying up distressed homes due to his advanced degree that gave him inside knowledge of how the markets worked, blah, blah, blah. I guess that didn't work out.

Buying up distressed properties at below market value, Then selling them to people without degrees, at above market value.That's funny. I'm sure they didn't speculate. It would have been hard to get a loan. They got lucky.

[flintlock]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

Buying up distressed properties at below market value, Then selling them to people without degrees, at above market value.That's funny. I'm sure they didn't speculate. It would have been hard to get a loan. They got lucky.

Huh? :confused: Not sure what you are trying to say. For the record the local market has probably dropped another 10% or so since that brilliant idea of theirs. Luckily they couldn't get a loan and it never happened. My point was the wife was trying to connect a MBA in manufacturing with some sort of mystical inside knowledge of Real Estate. He lost his job AFTER his plan to flip houses, so yes he is lucky, lucky he didn't go through with it.

[Munger]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

Unfortunately, the liberal arts disciplines have been captured by the New Left of the 60's (following Antonio Gramsci's instructions), and the liberal arts are no longer about a free and independent inquiry into the human condition, but indoctrination.

Good point. *rolls eyes*

[cjppjc]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

Football (mis)kicker:

The tuition rises have been talked about before on iTulip: as a limited capacity resource, the only way colleges have to maintain/increase profitability is increasing tuition.

The rising economy helped this as did rising endowments; the former by making the value of higher education apparently more, the latter by reducing the need to keep tuition affordable for the poorer students.

We're now in a situation where both above points are reversing.

It will be interesting to see just how far back down the reaction extends.

Those people would rather die, then let market forces operate.

[Basil]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

First, inflation. $2000 in 1980 had the buying power of roughly $12K today, according to shadowstats.com (makes me sick when I think what I was earning back then...).

Add to that faster-than-inflation increases in medical benefits, and a general trend for more and more benefits for university staff.

Although I don't have any stats to back me up, I'm pretty sure the trend in number of hours taught per professor has been declining.

Inflation-adjusted government subsidies have been going down.

There has also been more competition for available spots, which motivates universities to increase their fees.

Seems to me those increases on top of inflation pretty easily add up to another 33% on top of $12K, which would bring it up to $16K.

Actually academic salaries have not kept pace with rise in tuition, not at all. Many institutions have increased the number of adjuncts, who usually only get paid about 6k or so per course, in order to make it work. As for numbers of hours taught by tenured professors, that has pretty much remained steady.

[cjppjc]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

Huh? :confused: Not sure what you are trying to say. For the record the local market has probably dropped another 10% or so since that brilliant idea of theirs. Luckily they couldn't get a loan and it never happened. My point was the wife was trying to connect a MBA in manufacturing with some sort of mystical inside knowledge of Real Estate. He lost his job AFTER his plan to flip houses, so yes he is lucky, lucky he didn't go through with it.

Yes I know reread, my post. You'll see it's very funny.;)

Maybe not.

[plinko]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

I went to school from 2001-2005, my last year of loans needed was 50% of my the total money I borrowed to cover tuition and a few other costs. Tuition significantly rose that year. I still meet a number of college students (mostly engineers), and many of them are complaining about finding jobs this year.

I've been debating this in my mind lately:

1) Do you think apprenticeship will become a more important method of education in the coming years?

2) Will certain fields of higher education be more valuable as the accessibility of education? If so, will it be more business-oriented degrees, or more technical-oriented degrees?

I can still see lots of value in an MBA, but it may require a greater focus in either enterpreneurship skills, or organization / strategies specific for Asian countries (wearing the Jim Rogers hat here).

Anecdote: I've noticed many of my ex-engineering colleagues now enrolling into MBA programs, while a number of experienced MBA-wielding managers at my company recently got laid off in an acquisition.

[BrianL]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

So what would you advise someone straight out of college who doesn't have inertia along any given path?

My wife didn't go to college for personal reasons. For a while, she worked at hotels cleaning rooms, dealing with inventory, eventually becoming almost a personal assistant to one of the managers there. She left last year when it became a bit too personal - her manager wanted her to start dealing with the managers personal bills/mortgage payments/etc. Aside from not being comfortable something so outside her responsibilities, it was on top of her full work load.

Since this, she's been looking for an entry level position - and with the glut of experienced people out of work, all positions are taken. At this point she's thinking about either some sort of trade class or volunteer work.

So if you were starting fresh and weren't interested in a BS, what options would you focus on in this economy?

[Master Shake]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

Haven't been on a campus in a while, eh?

[Sharky]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

So if you were starting fresh and weren't interested in a BS, what options would you focus on in this economy?

Here's a recipe that I've successfully used myself and with a number of people that I've helped coach in finding jobs, keeping them, and moving ahead quickly. In my experience, I've found that only about a third of the people I speak with really get this, but when they do, it tends to work extremely well for them.

1. Find subject that she's is both passionate about and that people are willing to pay for. Passion in areas that people aren't willing to pay for shouldn't be real jobs; they're hobbies. It's impossible to give specific advice about that without knowing a lot about her.

2. Find the most successful company in that subject that's within reasonable commute distance (actually, for many people, it's a much better investment to move across country to work for the right company than it is to pay for a 4-year degree).

3. Get a job at that company, doing something related to the subject of interest. Don't focus on the money at first; get the job even if you have to do it on a volunteer basis. Getting experience at that company will more than make up for any difference in wages later on.

4. Work your ass off. Do more than expected. Be reliable. Do high-quality work. Make your boss look good.

5. Take advantage of as much on-the-job training as possible, to improve your knowledge of the company's business: company lending library, conferences, workshops, etc6

6. After two years, ask for a promotion. If they don't give you a good one, then leave and go to work for that company's main competitor.

7. Repeat again in another two years.

[Basil]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

http://www.boston.com/yourtown/news/...ails_layo.html

[petertribo]

Re: The Crisis of College Affordability

colleges better get ready for the future:

for example:MITopencourseware

take a lookey:

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/home/home/index.htm

it is going to hit them like a freight train

sites like this are awesome!

I was going to post that. Good for you. Here are my comments:

Our education is all about programming people and socializing them.

John Gatto is one innovative thinker in the field:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/

Another famous educator was Maria Montessori:
http://www.montessori.edu/maria.html

But I think all this education business may be left in the dustbin. MIT now offers it courses on line for FREE! So, education now becomes available to all, FREE! The computer revolution post IBM Monopoly involved many dropouts from conventional education. These folks taught and learned on the fly what they needed. There were no "educators" around to drone on in lectures, take attendance (hey, are you here mentally?) and give exams.

This on line capability may actually turn out to be very dangerous but that is another story.

So, if the Global Best and the Brightest take advantage of this, degreed education may become a thing of the past. Business entities who hire personnel based on pieces of academic paper are going to take a whipping. Meanwhile America cranks out the Worst and the Dumbest through its by rote, by rules system. What will be important, unlike in America, is What do you actually know? and How can you use it? So, as America again wallows in an antiquated, privileged, non accountable Industry (universities included), the World will leave it behind.

Personally, I think in this day and age of the Internet I would never send a child to a by rote, by ring the bell, by top down programming institution. Of course, as an truly educated child grows up, it will be constantly asking, "Why is everything so effed up?" That's a heavy burden for a parent to bear.