From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

[Guest]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

I've read you on these pages for two years Raja and yet you are only now beginning to divulge a little bit about who you are. Very interesting comments. Thank you.

Your last conclusions are may be just little bit the radical side, although in principle (more than in principle, in fact!) seem quite correct as core precepts to this reader.

Here is one pragmatic consequence however: Don't forget that when you take the "tough love" approach with patients you unleash a time bomb of pent up consequences wherein everyone who was a candidate for a stroke, diabetes, kidney failure, diabetic retinopathy, and and every other last implicit illness from the US lifestyle, duly proceeds to acquire that ailment and then when they are really ill, between life and death any civilized society has the burden of making some effort to save their lives (even at this eleventh hour). So if America took your advice we'd unleash a tidal wave of critically ill people ten or fifty times greater than at present and the system would promptly break. Hence you put Jay in an impossible position with this advice. I therefore find the advice a little too idealistic to be practicable - unless we drive everyone back to an energetic and spartan farmer's or pre-industrial lifestyle which clearly won't happen.

There is a reason why the mature industrial nations were only too glad to leave those pre-industrial lifestyles behind - they enslaved much more of humanity's time - and free time in life to pursue higher callings is a great gift. But in principle I fully understand every last one of your concerns and they seem to abide in correct principles.

Last week I went in to my HMO hospital for a checkup, and my regular doctor has left for private practice. I was temporarily assigned an adjunct doctor who was extremely capable IMO. He was from Chad in central Africa, and had trained for ten years in China. I am unclear whether he completed his medical degree there or in the US. We got talking about vascular health and then got onto the topic of Chi Kung, (aka Qi Gong) which we both practice, and I discovered from this Kaiser Permanente doctor that the world's single most senior instructor of Chi Kung visits San Diego's Chi Kung club from southern China every year, and they all practice every sunday in Balboa Park in the center of the city (free). We literally lost track of the time (these docs sometimes range up to a three thousand patient caseload to mind) and were there for half an hour enthusiastically discussing Qi Gong and visits to West Africa. He turned out to be an absolutely fascinating hybrid of Western classical medical training and traditional Chinese medecine.

AnyWay appreciate where both you and Jay and Ax are coming from. You are a bundle of surprises after two years of keeping it all firmly under your hat, Raja. Great discussion here. BTW I still maintain that your "rolling dice" avatar is incorrect. You are essentially a conservative and risk averse guy, according to my makeshift psychological identikit assembled from the gist of your comments.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Don't forget that when you take the "tough love" approach with patients you unleash a time bomb of pent up consequences wherein everyone who was a candidate for a stroke, diabetes, kidney failure, diabetic retinopathy, and and every other last implicit illness from the US lifestyle, duly proceeds to acquire that ailment

I quite agree with your appreciation of Raja's comments, Lukester.

Perhaps however such "tough love" would reduce future medical costs. If all the doctors started tomorrow insisting on the sorts of healthier diets that Raja mentions, if they even indignantly kicked out of their offices patients who refused to consider such, then I would expect future medical costs and future rates of serious chronic illneses both to start declining, not to jump upward.

[Jay]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

I quite agree with your appreciation of Raja's comments, Lukester.

Perhaps however such "tough love" would reduce future medical costs. If all the doctors started tomorrow insisting on the sorts of healthier diets that Raja mentions, if they even indignantly kicked out of their offices patients who refused to consider such, then I would expect future medical costs and future rates of serious chronic illneses both to start declining, not to jump upward.

I strongly agree that preventative medicine should be emphasized and should be the central tenant of all health care. I also agree that our highly processed diet and lack of excercise are major reasons for many of the conditions humans are faced with. I also believe that some vaccines are essential, but then again I don't expect many of the anti-vaccine folks to know what a child with congenital rubella syndrome looks like. I also, obviously, feel that there are both emergent and chronic conditions that can be helped with classical medicine. Some of these, especially the chronic ones, would be much mitigated or eliminated entirely by proper preventative care and I feel that this is a major weakness of the current system that needs to be addressed. I also feel that there is, of course, corruption and group think in medicine, but may differ from some here in that I don't think either of these issues change the core belief that most physicians hold in their hearts and that is to heal. I also know from personal experience that there are many, many people who's lives are better due to caring physicians like these.

Kicking "fat" patients out of your office raises many ethical issues, although I do think it is an issue that should be addressed differently and more agressively than it is presently. Ax is correct when he mentioned the burden of litigation on the profession, for good and bad, and it would pertain here also.

[cjppjc]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

I quite agree with your appreciation of Raja's comments, Lukester.

Perhaps however such "tough love" would reduce future medical costs. If all the doctors started tomorrow insisting on the sorts of healthier diets that Raja mentions, if they even indignantly kicked out of their offices patients who refused to consider such, then I would expect future medical costs and future rates of serious chronic illneses both to start declining, not to jump upward.

I would take the other side of that bet. I don't think most people will not change their diets because of a doctors insistance as you state above. The facts are out there and yet people eat as they like.

[skyson]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Supporters of medicine report all these apparent "successes", and they can't understand why some are so critical of their profession. It's a "not seeing the forest for the trees" thing . . . .

This is well said. Like a lot of "alternative" health professionals point out, the conventional medicine is still a regime of "cut, poison, and fire". Instead of looking into the root cause, treating symptoms and "curing" the outlining factors will not improve the healing process. That is why, despite spending billions billions dollar, the survival rate of cancer patients has not improved significantly, and I don't know how much is the rate of return on investment in this case.

I just personally heard of a very troubling incident recently, from our educational department (a large health authority in western Canada) - six of nursing staff in an affiliate community health center had cancer due to exposure to chemo drugs. This cytotoxic medications (no kidding, they kill cells, healthy or not), are extremely dangerous, and require careful handling (staff should wear gloves, mask and even eye shield if in powder or liquid form). Apparently, these staff were not warned of the danger and did not utilize proper protection precautions. Two of them died already. I am not sure if there are litigations going on or not.

If these chemo medications could cause cancer on healthy humans, what will they do to cancer patients, whose health and especially the immune system is already severely compromised? It is a fact that in the pre-industrial world, one in fifty of the population will get cancer in their life time, and in the post-industrial world, one in three people will develop cancer in their lift time. And many researches point out the cancer and other chronic diseases(heart disease,etc.) are caused by our unhealthy life style. A simple change in our diet and life style will save a lot of lives, and money! I was so baffled, in the pre-mentioned movie (Dying to have known), the doctor stated:"... we just need more new drugs" to cure cancer. This is a typical conventional medicine group thinking. They are trained to think in that way, from med school to their practicing years.

On top of that, there is this powerful tool of "Standard Practice Guidelines" for all disciplines (doctor, nurse, dietician, etc.). Anyone deviate from these guidelines, risk losing their jobs and licenses. So if you could influence the development of these guidelines, you arguably control the the practice of whole health care profession.

The pharmaceuticals are wining big. I read somewhere that the total profits of top ten pharm. companies in the world is larger than the total profits of the rest of fortune 500 companies add together. "More people live off cancer than people die of cancer". Yes indeed.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

I would take the other side of that bet. I don't think most people will not change their diets because of a doctors insistance as you state above. The facts are out there and yet people eat as they like.

Well, to be honest, though I talk big, I'd not risk that bet with you.

We'd probably have to reconstitute the entire American food system to get any widespread improvement. I see no chance of that happening.

[Jay]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

That is why, despite spending billions billions dollar, the survival rate of cancer patients has not improved significantly, and I don't know how much is the rate of return on investment in this case.

There are many children alive today because of advances in chemotherapy protocols in Acute Lymphocytic Leukemia. In fact, leukemias have had drastic 5 year survival increases in the last 40 years.

[skyson]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

There are many children alive today because of advances in chemotherapy protocols in Acute Lymphocytic Leukemia. In fact, leukemias have had drastic 5 year survival increases in the last 40 years.

I am not disputing the fact that the conventional medicine's advances and its effects on the vastly improved average life expectancy of the population. This is largely due to developments in trauma care, pre and post natal care, and infection control. Please note the maximum life expectancy has not improved at all. It is rare to have people live beyond 100 years old in history, and it is rare to see 100 years old in our modern time (well, if you read Bible, our ancestors actually live to 800-900 years ). It is my impression, beyond the above areas, the conventional medicine has not made significant improvements in the last centuray or so, even though we are throwing more and more money in health care, and majority of those money is consumed by old age populations. Hence, it is my belief that a total new approach to healthcare is in order.

Yes, there is great improvement in relatively small number of cancer cases treated by chemo therapies. However, other approaches could be more effective, less brutal?

[raja]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Here is one pragmatic consequence however: Don't forget that when you take the "tough love" approach with patients you unleash a time bomb of pent up consequences wherein everyone who was a candidate for a stroke, diabetes, kidney failure, diabetic retinopathy, and and every other last implicit illness from the US lifestyle, duly proceeds to acquire that ailment and then when they are really ill, between life and death any civilized society has the burden of making some effort to save their lives (even at this eleventh hour). So if America took your advice we'd unleash a tidal wave of critically ill people ten or fifty times greater than at present and the system would promptly break. Hence you put Jay in an impossible position with this advice. I therefore find the advice a little too idealistic to be practicable - unless we drive everyone back to an energetic and spartan farmer's or pre-industrial lifestyle which clearly won't happen.

I agree, there has to be a transition that is practical as well as compassionate.

But first there has to be a revolution in understanding . . . a recognition of what's wrong with what exists, and an intent to correct it. Enlightened, honest doctors who can see beyond the false reality that now exists in the medical world must speak out.

The problem is that if healthy living were actually instituted, half the medical profession would be out of a job. The pharmaceutical companies would see their profits plummet. Do you think doctors and the drug companies will willingly cut their own economic throats? I don't.

The forces against reform on the individual level are substantial.
If ax kicked his fat patient out of the office, he would probably have his license taken away for not providing "appropriate" medical care. How many doctors would put their families economic welfare at risk to buck the system in that way? And Mr. Fatso would just go down the hall to a more accommodating doctor who would provide him with the easy solution of popping a daily pill.

We need a Martin Luther King of the healing profession, who will lead our society away from ever-increasing enslavement to prescription drugs.

"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention study says just more than 44 percent of all Americans take at least one prescription drug. And 16.5 percent take at least three drugs. That's up substantially from the period from 1988 to 1994." http://www.wesh.com/health/3965650/detail.html

In the meantime, the tragedy will go on. The number of deaths and needless suffering due the misguided medical approach dwarfs that of the World Wars. One hidden blessing resulting from our upcoming Depression will be that when people are poorer, they will eat less junk food and won't be able to afford medical care. I'm shorting doctors and going long rice and beans

[raja]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

BTW I still maintain that your "rolling dice" avatar is incorrect. You are essentially a conservative and risk averse guy, according to my makeshift psychological identikit assembled from the gist of your comments.

Warning: This post is personal and will do absolutely nothing to advance your investment profits. Only read it if you have some time to waste.

Lukester, my avatar of rolling dice represents how I view this huge gambling parlor that is called Wall Street and the world of "investments". It also represents my outlook on the modus operandi of Life. Like the rich man, who looking upon the bum in the streets said, "There, but for the grace of God, go I."

You are quite right in one respect. My response to Life given this philosophy has been one of caution and conservatism in some areas, especially investment. On the other hand, I have taken many risks in my life due to my seeking for "truth" under every nook and cranny.

I am a very rational person, and in my youth had difficulty in dismissing out of hand all kinds of wacky stuff without first obtaining evidence that it was false. This lead me down a lot of strange paths. For example, just out of college I went on a 7-month overland journey to India in 1974 seeking hash and enlightenment. I also spent some time in a Japanese Zen monastery in 1980, and was some years later initiated by an Indian guru in the US. I have dabbled or briefly worked as an astrologer, massage therapist, psychic channeler, dietary counselor, professor of computer education, software author, rental property owner, executive director of a large health resort, retail store clerk, and magazine publisher. I am currently raising goats, chickens, sheep, cows and emus, learning how to drive a tractor, managing a few rental properties and spending lots of time on iTulip trying to save my retirement nest egg.

As a result of my life's various inquiries, my conclusions from some of these investigations are FWIW:

India Gurus -- hypocritical skirt chasers, with side jobs as managers of homes for the psychologically damaged

Astrology -- zero predictive value; beautiful philosophy

Buddhism -- unnecessarily obscure, but with very valuable psychological teachings

Crystals and many "New Age" Healing Techniques -- useless, except to enrich the practitioners

Herbs -- most work, but are symptomatic treatments not cures.

Psychic Readers, the Paranormal and Fortune Tellers -- pure imagination. Relies on the human propensity to remember the hits and ignore the misses.

Homeopathy -- placebo effect only. There is a lot of "evidence" of supposed effectiveness, which on closer inspection proves meaningless.

Modern Medicine -- emergency medicine is excellent, while the rest is purely symptomatic. A diversion from true healing that can be dangerous or even life-threatening.

Vitamin and Mineral Supplements -- completely unnecessary with a healthy diet and lifestyle. High quality cod liver oil is useful for those who don't get enough sunlight.

Various Diets and Nutritional Strategies -- the most healthy way to eat is a traditional, pre-industrial diet that accords with our genetic heritage. See www.westonaprice.org for details. (I have no financial or other connection with this group, except that I proofread their periodical as a volunteer service.)

Vegetarianism and Veganism -- disregards millennia of human biological history. As Carl the Caveman says, "Meat good!"

Organic Food -- better than conventionally grown - healthwise and environmentally - but the health benefits are subtle and will take a long time to manifest, so scientists have yet to notice a difference. The harm of conventional methods is a greater risk to health with animal foods than with produce.

Ukrainian Wives -- excellent, but it takes time to get accustomed to them.

iTulip -- the best

The above are generalizations . . . I'm admittedly not trying to cover every aspect of the broad categories that I've addressed.
Also, I don't have 100% certainty in anything. As Chuang Tzu said,

"Once I dreamed I was a butterfly and was happy as a butterfly. I was conscious that I was quite pleased with myself, but I did not know that I was Tzu. Suddenly I awoke, and there was I, visibly Tzu. I do not know whether it was Tzu dreaming that he was a butterfly or the butterfly dreaming that he was Tzu."

[ax]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

So true, Raja. Pediatricians are allowed to refuse care for patients that are not vaccinated. OBs are allowed to refuse care for pregnant mothers who smoke. Why not refuse care for patients who are trying to kill themselves?

[skyson]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Warning: This post is personal and will do absolutely nothing to advance your investment profits. Only read it if you have some time to waste.

Thanks for sharing all your experience and info. I was trained in the very conventional way. Now starting to broaden my view....

[metalman]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

that was awesome. thanks raja.

[Jay]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

It is my impression, beyond the above areas, the conventional medicine has not made significant improvements in the last centuray or so, even though we are throwing more and more money in health care, and majority of those money is consumed by old age populations. Hence, it is my belief that a total new approach to healthcare is in order.

Antibiotics did not exist 100 years ago. Millions of young healthy people died from simple urinary tract infections, pneumonias and cellulitis among other things.
Edit: Do you know what childbirth was like 100 years ago?!

[Jay]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Modern Medicine -- emergency medicine is excellent, while the rest is purely symptomatic. A diversion from true healing that can be dangerous or even life-threatening.

See my post on antibiotics. Millions of people would die of pneumonia, UTI's, cellulitis, etc. if antibiotics didn't exist, no matter how well you live and eat. That may be treating a symptom, i.e not being able to breathe, but it's a symptom most with pneumonia would want taken care of.