From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

I have no idea what the answer is to all this. :eek:

It's the same as with investment advice. Study, learn, listen, try this and that, attend the schools of hard knocks, lucky breaks and flaming wipeouts. Sometimes and in someways, one trusts others, and sometimes, in someways, one calls ones own shots and takes care of ones own affairs.

... and then you die. .

[raja]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Any internet search will turn up thousands of goofy "alternative" treatments. Its no wonder people tend to group them all together and throw out the good with the bad. In a modern world filled with liars, medicine has more than its share. It simply is mirroring what is going on in the rest of the world. I think there is valid alternative medicine, but unfortunately, there are low barriers to entry, and any kook can get involved and start selling their version, which they pluck right out of their ass.

It's my understanding big Pharma now funds a lot of the "research" going on. If that's true, then its no wonder they've become so dominant. And physicians are only repeating what they've read as being "proven" by this research.

I have no idea what the answer is to all this. :eek:

My only purpose in posting anymore on this thread would be to help people.
However, I suspect that 99% of iTulip readers have already left this thread, including Jay.
But, what the heck, I'll give it one more shot . . . . .

I published an "alternative" health magazine for 11 years.
It was devoted to pointed out the failures of both modern medicine and "natural" or "alternative" remedies. I wanted people to know the dangers out there, and not be taken in by the hype.
In preparation for each issue, I spent hours with my nose buried in scientific journals and other sources attempting to get to the "truth".
Regards my education, I completed graduate school in a scientific health field, so I understand scientific analysis.
Now I am retired, and have nothing to gain from from being "right", and it doesn't hurt or benefit me if anyone listenens to me.
I am just the kind of person that should be listened to . . . .

For what it's worth, here's my advice:

1) The most important thing is to stay healthy, then you don't need medicine.

2) The prime factor in staying healthy is to satisfy the needs imposed by our evolutionary heritage. Simply put, this means eating and living (biologically) as people did before technology (a very recent devolopment in our evolutionary history). If you live like a typical American, you are not doing this. If you buy into the typical "healthy diet" promoted by most "natural" healers, you are not doing this.
The best source of information on healthy living I have found is www.westonaprice.org -- well researched, scientific analysis, and revolutionary conclusions -- kind of like iTulip.

The main pitfalls of both modern medicine and "alternative" medicine is the lack of seeing the big picture.
People take a grain of truth, and extrapolate it into a money-making business. Ethics is lacking in both modern and alternative medicine.

The problem with the study of health -- and we see the same thing with economics -- is the complexity of the subject matter.
If it were as simple as basic chemistry, there would be no debate. Yet in both of these fields there is endless discussion because the complexity makes truth elusive.

I strongly urge everyone to question any kind of health treatment they undertake, either from a doctor or a "natural" healer. Ignorance, self-serving and fraud are pervasive. You will suffer needlessly if you do not . . . .

If there is something wrong with you, you are probably making some mistake in how you live. When you do not give your body what it needs, whatever your personal genetic weaknesses are will express themselves in disease. Short-term treatment may be helpful, but it will not get to the root of the problem.

[Jay]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

But, as pointed out, it is alright for a fellow professional to disparage European and Canadian health professionals which contributes nothing to a fruitful dialogue. Certainly a double standard.

You are confusing posts and need to re-read this thread. I have not done anything of the sort. The socialized medicine structure has it's pro's and con's. I would agree that a scalar metric is not very useful in this case.

As for "painting an entire profession with generalisations", Professor Of Medicine Doctor Nortin Hadler, a member of your own profession has already done that: "The institution of medicine is ethically bankrupt."

I haven't read anything he has written. So can't comment on the material. I would agree that he has made generalizations about the entire profession being ethically bankrupt, which is in itself rigid and sensationalized.

As for "banging on a drum" as you dismissively phrase it, here is more:

http://www.aconsumerfraudlawyer.com/...-scamming.html

To me, that sounds like a SUBPRIME BOOM in MRIs. Big BUBBLE.
Run these types of scams over all the different procedures that can be billed and you have $BILLIONS.

I will anticipate the answer: it is all the INSURANCE industry's fault. I see behaviour very similar to FIRE, lack of accountability and denial of any responsibility.

Please don't anticipate my answer, it shows no desire for dialogue or understanding, only repeated bashing and assumption. You have already confused another post with mine and jumped on it and are now claiming to know my feelings about the use and misuse of MRI.

[Jay]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

You know its funny, when I posted about needing to listen to out of the mainstream evidence, colloidal silver was exactly what I was thinking of!

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

1) The most important thing is to stay healthy, then you don't need medicine.

Yes - well worth repeating.

http://www.westonaprice.org

Yes - an excellent site. I first found that site when I was re-introducing myself to raw milk after many years. It may be the closest thing there is to a health site that one can trust as given.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

I published an "alternative" health magazine for 11 years.

What magazine? Does it have or did it leave any traces on the web?

[Jay]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

However, I suspect that 99% of iTulip readers have already left this thread, including Jay..

Can't get rid of me that quickly. ;)

1) The most important thing is to stay healthy, then you don't need medicine.

2) The prime factor in staying healthy is to satisfy the needs imposed by our evolutionary heritage. Simply put, this means eating and living (biologically) as people did before technology (a very recent devolopment in our evolutionary history). If you live like a typical American, you are not doing this. If you buy into the typical "healthy diet" promoted by most "natural" healers, you are not doing this.

Well then, on this we agree.

[raja]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

What magazine? Does it have or did it leave any traces on the web?

I'd like to tell you . . . but to retain anonymity, I won't.
I don't want Lukester digging up my back yard :eek: ;)

[raja]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

What magazine? Does it have or did it leave any traces on the web?

I'd like to tell you . . . but to retain anonymity, I won't.
I don't want Lukester digging up my back yard :eek: ;)

[petertribo]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

You are confusing posts and need to re-read this thread. I have not done anything of the sort. The socialized medicine structure has it's pro's and con's. I would agree that a scalar metric is not very useful in this case.

I haven't read anything he has written. So can't comment on the material. I would agree that he has made generalizations about the entire profession being ethically bankrupt, which is in itself rigid and sensationalized.


Please don't anticipate my answer, it shows no desire for dialogue or understanding, only repeated bashing and assumption. You have already confused another post with mine and jumped on it and are now claiming to know my feelings about the use and misuse of MRI.

As usual, you don't address the issues but drag out the usual Red Herrings and then introduce more of them. What you have is RBS (Recalcitrant Bankers Syndrome). When your profitable and corrupt Industry is called to task like the Bankers, you ignore all the obvious evidence and, like your colleague, attack the Messenger.

Hey, what about all those MRI Fraudsters in your profession?

[flintlock]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

My opinion on why today everyone dies of degenerative diseases like cancer and heart disease, and in the "old" days people died of infectious diseases like typhoid and smallpox etc. is that:

1. People had a very close proximity to animals. They worked with them etc. Animals are very dirty creatures. Today the only proximity we come to animals is in a supermarket and our pets.

2. Clean water. Sewage systems , running water etc. We don't shit in our drinking and bathing water anymore like we used to not that long ago.

You can add to that list the fact that antibiotics, vaccines, and other medical "miracles" have weakened the human race genetically speaking. Weaker people who would have died early in life survived to reproduce. They are surviving only to get cancer and heart disease later in life. I suspect we will continue to see a weaker, sicker society in the future, kept alive only by the advances in modern medicine. Some want to downplay genetics, but that is the card that trumps everything else.

[raja]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Hey, what about all those MRI Fraudsters in your profession?

My wife is a big believer in modern medicine, but she fails to distinguish the good (e.g., emergency medicine) from the bad (most of the rest). Even though we have negative experiences, she remains a believer. Two examples:

1. Our daughter has a sore throat. We go to the doctor and he says it's viral, then proceeds to prescribe antibiotics. At my urging, we don't buy the pills, and our daughter gets better in 3 days without the medication.

2. My wife and I have not conceived for two years, despite trying. We recently went to a big fertility clinic in Nashville for tests. The tests show nothing wrong, but the doctor wants me to go for a sperm-penetration test costing $700. I get on the internet, and in 5 minutes find a study indicating that the test is worthless. Furthermore, the study's authors have reviewed the literature and concluded that the test is worthless. Yet this doctor is very happy to take my $700.

Despite these experiences and others, my wife's faith in doctors is unshaken . . . it's like a religion.

I urge everyone to do a little homework before accepting any medical or "alternative" health treatment. Get on the internet and find out what the success rate is for that treatment. You may not have the background to understand the details of the study, but the conclusions are usually in plain English. There are many bad studies out there, so look for reviews that look at the results from several past studies.

Of course, you could ask your doctor, but that you run into a few problems there:

1) The doctor will feel insulted, because why would he/she recommend the treatment if it was not good? You are questioning the doctor's intelligence and competence.

2) The doctor will not have reviewed the recent literature, so may be giving you outdated information.

3) The doctor likes to think of him/herself as a savior of humankind, and may be largely unconscious of a self-serving bias. In bringing this to the surface, you will no doubt incur some negative reaction, such as anger.
An example: Doctors frequently say they prescribe unnecessary antibiotics because the parents want them. But the real reason, which they are probably not aware of, is that they don't want to lose a customer by denying the parents request, i.e., it comes down to money. This is a reason why there are rules in medicine to protect against conflicting interest, yet still it is pervasive

Aside from the fraud and self-serving greed, perhaps the big tragedy of modern medicine is the failure to understand the root cause of disease. For example, doctors consider it a success when a high-blood pressure medicine controls blood pressure . . . but they do not realize that this is in reality a failure, since the medicine would be totally unnecessary had they really cured the underlying disease rather than merely controlled the symptoms.

Supporters of medicine report all these apparent "successes", and they can't understand why some are so critical of their profession. It's a "not seeing the forest for the trees" thing . . . .

This discussion has seemingly ranged far from the purpose of this website -- economics -- but considering that a huge part of US expenditures are for health care costs, it is entirely relevant.

[ax]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Raja, you make some excellent points, but a few of your argments are too simplistic. I certainly don't think of myself as any type of "savior," but one of the joys of emergency medicine is the opportunity to improve patient outcomes acutely and tangibly. Your argument against hypertension medicine leaves out genetic factors and the reality of, at least, the American lifestyle. I can encourage smoking cessation and dietary changes all I want, but is my 250 lb., pack-a-day, 12-pack of beer on weekends 50-year old going to control his pressure with these changes anytime soon? Probably not. Would I be considered negligent for not prescribing him an ACE-inhibitor if he comes to my office with a pressure of 174/93 on consecutive visits? Sure.

I'm a little surprised no one followed my post on medical malpractice with a response. Could anyone outside the U.S. comment on tort law and the commonplace of malpractice suits/costs of malpractice insurance in nationalized healthcare systems? I'd be curious to know. Thanks.

[raja]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Raja, you make some excellent points, but a few of your argments are too simplistic. I certainly don't think of myself as any type of "savior," but one of the joys of emergency medicine is the opportunity to improve patient outcomes acutely and tangibly. Your argument against hypertension medicine leaves out genetic factors and the reality of, at least, the American lifestyle.

I agree, my comment on doctors seeing themselves as "saviors" was excessive, but it was motivated by the arrogance for which doctors are often accused and I myself have personally experience.

Your opinion that some of my arguments are too simplistic probably stems from our differing knowledge base . . . until you were presented with the same information I have been exposed to, you would naturally come to that conclusion.
Let's look at the genetics question . . . .

How much of disease is nature, and how much nurture, has been debated endlessly.
In the 1920s and 1930s, the consensus was that the source of dental disease was a combintion of bacterial pathology and genetic predisposition. A dentist name Weston Price (Member Research Commission, American Dental Association; Member American Association of Physical Anthropologists; Author, "Dental Infections, Oral and Systemic"), disagreed with this. His belief was that nutrition and lifestyle were the most important factors. So, he traveled to many remote regions of the world (Africa, northern Canada, Fiji, remote European villages, Australia, Eskimo in the Arctic, etc.) to study native people who were living in natural conditions without modern technolgy. He found that these people suffered an average of one cavity per three adults. Cancer and heart disease were virtually unknown. (Dr. Price's book is free online: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_lib.../pricetoc.html). There are plenty of photos of healthy natives with perfect teeth who have never brushed, flossed or been to the dentist in their lives.)

Usually in these villages, there would be a family member who had moved to a nearby trading post, and was now regularly consuming sugar and other modern foods. Dr. Price studied these individuals also to shed some light on the degree genetics played a role in dental health. What he found was that those consuming the modern, refined diet had very poor dental health, and their children suffered extensive malocclusions that did not occur in those family members living under natural conditions. Thus, genetics was not the deciding factor in dental health.

Our bodies are designed by evolution to operate on certain quantities of vitamins, minerals and other substances . . . yet modern humans eat copious amounts of white flour and sugar which are stripped of these natural elements. Other foods are fiddled with by food technologists so as to be toxic to our health (e.g., margarine). Then, various unnatural chemicals are added to our foods to extend shelf-life and for other economic reasons. No wonder that our bodies malfunction . . . how could it be otherwise?

So, ax, your and my understanding of the role of genetics is probably quite different.
You see my assertions as "simplistic", I see yours as probably "uninformed".

It's tempting to look at all this as a conspiracy, because the doctors and pharmaceutical companies profit from ill health (the more people are sick, the more profit is generated), but they are eating this empty food just like everyone else . . . and suffering from the same diseases.

I can encourage smoking cessation and dietary changes all I want, but is my 250 lb., pack-a-day, 12-pack of beer on weekends 50-year old going to control his pressure with these changes anytime soon? Probably not. Would I be considered negligent for not prescribing him an ACE-inhibitor if he comes to my office with a pressure of 174/93 on consecutive visits? Sure.

IMO, you are negligent for prescribing these unnecessary drugs.

You should tell your overwieght, beer-drinking smoker that he needs to get off the cigarettes, cut down on the booze, and lose 75 pounds or he's going to die, and you are not going to facilitate his early death by giving him drugs that will only cover up his problems. Your patient needs to take responsibility for himself.

Oh . . . but you say that J6P won't take the healthy advice, so you have to give him drugs. I disagree.
If the medical profession really got behind the idea of preventive medicine, it could work.
For one thing, set up tax incentives to encourage healthy living and make unhealthy choices financially painful.
Tax sugar, refined flour and increase taxes on booze and cigarettes. (Increasing cigarette taxes has reducing smoking.)
But if J6P persists in his bad habits, America is a free country, and he's free to be self-destructive.
However, when he starts to really suffer from his poor choices and is on the way out, don't give him a $100,000 quadruple bypass paid for by the taxpayer. Send him home with with all the pain killers he wants. Switch him from one addiction to another. Poppies are easy and inexpensive to grow . . . .

Consider this the "free market" approach to medicine. When you supply J6P with drugs, you are no different than a drug pusher, because you know that if he continues his bad habits his life will be shortened and he will only succumb to more disease and suffering later on. The whole medical profession needs to do the right thing. Instead of facilitating disease, they should be preventing it.

But they won't see it that way . . . because they know that what they are doing is right. After all, they've got the best minds and huge financial resources, so how could they not be correct? Yeah, there are a few bad apples, and the practice of medicine is not perfect, but America has the best health system in the world. They are, after all, the smartest guys in the room (healthwise, that is) . . . .

[vanvaley1]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Is anybody still in favor of self-regulation of a profession? Seems it hasn't worked out too well in financing, the military, politicians, mediciine, a plethora of corporate interest and products, education, etc. etc. etc.?