From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

[ax]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Wow, I guess pertussis and polio magically disappeared by urbanization, not vaccination.

[labasta]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Polio, mmm polio, I remember something about that. I'll find it...


Here it is:

http://westonaprice.org/envtoxins/pesticides_polio.html

[mcgurme]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Thanks for that link. I did not know that he had written a new book. I will surely be reading that.

His "going rogue" in the Medical Profession raises some interesting questions. As a Professor at UNC I would imagine there is some protection there. I would imagine also that there is somewhat of a movement within the Profession itself to change. I would hope the Profession is not powerful enough to penalize and blackball him. I think there is a parallel to be made with rogue analyst Nassim Taleb and his BLACK SWAN. Much of what Taleb says in his book is directed at this idea of Expertness and Infallibility. We need more contrarian thinkers and iconoclasts.

I can tell you a few things about being a tenured Prof at UNC. There is certainly some protection in that position, but it is not complete. For example, I do research on antibiotics. Now, from my own research, I know for a fact that colloidal/ionic silver is one of the most effective antibiotics known to humans. And I also know that it is probably safer than most common antibiotics. But, unfortunately, I cannot create a research program focused on silver research, because it is unlikely anybody would provide grant money for me to do so. It is not considered "sexy" or "modern" or, ultimately, "profit making," because nobody can patent it. And hence it is not readily fundable research. Therefore, a profit-making academic medical center is uninterested in it.

So I do the best I can. Instead, I am focused on figuring out why conventional antibiotics fail, i.e. how bacteria evolve defenses against them. This is still useful information to have, and may guide the development of better treatments down the road. I do not feel that I am completely wasting my time with this. However, I do believe that my time could be more optimally spent if I could focus it on the area that I think would be the very best.

But it is not like that is an easy problem to solve. Many people have many ideas about what is "best." Some of those ideas are pretty far out. There needs to be a mechanism of deciding which avenues are worth pursuing, and which are just quackery. Currently, that mechanism is peer review, where a group of people just like me get together in a room to score and rank proposals from our colleagues. It is a highly imperfect process (I have been reviewer as well as reviewee). The main problem is that it is subject to groupthink and trendiness (such as in the antibiotic case I mentioned). But it would be no better if some administrator somewhere was doing the deciding. In fact it would likely be worse, because that administrator would be much more susceptible to corruption and abuse of his/her power than is an often-changing group of one's colleagues.

My lack of ability to get grant funding to do colloidal silver research is not because there is a direct conspiracy of Big Pharma somehow pulling the strings of grant reviewers. I know for a fact they are not. Despite the wishes of conspiracy theorists, it is not that simple. It is more like that 40-50 years of dominance of the biomedical industry by Big Pharma, with a constant barrage of marketing messages to doctors and researchers and decision makers (i.e. EJ's trademarked Bullhorn), has led to a particularly acute groupthink that believes modern pharma is the only solution to most problems. That groupthink thus dominates the peer review process. And so anything perceived to be outside of that "mainstream" (the kazoo) is perceived as weak, regardless of the evidence for it.

Here's an example. I know a person who had a problem with a chronic infection. A doctor prescribed an ongoing regimen of Ciprofloxacin for her. She was very concerned about taking it indefinitely, but he said "it is fine." It wasn't fine. She developed all sorts of side effects, AND the Cipro stopped working to control the infection (i.e. the bacteria developed resistance). At one point I mentioned ionic silver to her in passing. She was so desperate, she went right out and bought some, started using it, and within days her infection was in control. She was able to discontinue Cipro so that the side-effects went away. The ironic part is, she won't tell the doctor about using the silver, because she knows he would just patronizingly lecture her (yes, he's that kind of doctor). So she tells him she's still taking the Cipro, and he thinks it is the Cipro that has cleared the infection!

Now one problem with this scenario is that the current market for ionic silver products is totally unregulated. So it is very much a matter of buyer beware. Because it is considered "fringe" by the FDA, there are many manufacturers that make many wild claims, and it is very hard to sort out which formulations are legitimate and actually have what they claim on the label. Since the FDA just labels all silver products as "quackery", it thereby leads to a situation where many of the people (not all) producing ionic silver products probably are quacks, just doing it for a quick buck. Worse still is that even if people have honest motives, there is very little research available on what forms of silver and what dosages are most effective. It clearly works to kill bacteria in a petri dish (I've done the experiment), but it is not clear what dose is appropriate for human use. And there is no way of knowing without some fairly large-scale research on it. Until the groupthink on this changes, that just won't happen.

So, for me, the study of something that is not in the mainstream becomes relegated to "hobbyist" pursuit. I do it in my "spare" time (when I'm not spending 90 hours/wk writing grant proposals). I could just drop all the "mainstream" research in my lab, but I am under no illusion about the results of that: they would make my life hell. And besides, I do think the mainstream research I am doing is useful - just not as useful as it could be if the "Big Pharma" groupthink weren't in place.

I think the only way this situation can change is to totally eliminate the ability of Big Pharma to market/advertise to anyone in the profession (eliminate the Bullhorn). And it would require total elimination of money flow from Big Pharma to researchers. But even if the marketing barrage and money flow were to cease today (which is unlikely), it would take 10-20 years for its influence to ebb, as the older folks retire and the new folks that haven't been brainwashed replace them.

I think the same applies to doctors. Many here are pointing fingers at doctors. While there are some greedy doctors, I think the bigger issue is exactly the kind of groupthink I mentioned above. I see this groupthink from doctors all the time, such as in the paranoia about mildly elevated cholesterol levels. Somehow, many doctors have become convinced that it is a greater good to prescribe lifelong treatment with a statin like Lipitor - and to accept the many side effects - than to live with mildly elevated cholesterol. And yet if one digs into the research, it is clear that the statins are more dangerous than having mildly elevated cholesterol (it is a different story for familial hypercholesterolemia, a rare disorder where statin treatment is better than the leaving things be).

Are doctors prescribing statins because they directly profit from them? In most cases, no. They are prescribing them because Big Pharma has captured the Bullhorn, and so the only message most docs hear is that it is imperative to reduce cholesterol, at all costs. That bullhorn quickly translates into groupthink, that leads to overprescription (just like the antibiotic overprescription cited by Raja).

Ultimately, I think the message here is the same. The bottom line is that many of these problems can be traced to unchecked corporate greed, that has been allowed to capture the Bullhorn for the biomedical profession and mutate it to a point where it is inefficient at accomplishing its core mission. Many individuals like myself very much want to do the right thing, but we must work within the framework as it exists, or not work at all.

[mcgurme]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Welcome Mcgurne.

You are now on one incredible journey into the world of medicine. He he

Well, thanks for the welcome... but I've been around here for years.

And as for the "incredible journey," I have been on that journey for 20 years, since I am both a mainstream Biomedical researcher at a major academic medical center, at the same time as having done extensive reading outside the mainstream.

My viewpoint is a centrist one. I have encountered many folks who become discouraged with "conventional" medicine, and hence sweep it aside in one broad stroke. And I have encountered others who buy the mainstream line (such as cholesterol) hook, line, and sinker. I don't think either viewpoint represents any kind of "truth." The truth is more ephemeral, and lies with studying the evidence carefully on one's own, weighing it, and making an appropriate decision for one's own situation. A major failure of the "system" is that most people just leave such decisions "up to the experts" (be they mainstream experts like MD's or "fringe" experts like Chiropractors). Anytime one leaves the decisions up to another expert, it puts oneself in a position to be exploited, whether intentionally or not.

So, as to the information you posted about heart disease being caused by bacteria, that is an intriguing theory. However, it is just that: theory. There have been many other such theories, each with their proponents: cholesterol, homocysteine, oxidative damage of LDL, stress, etc. What seems clear is that heart disease is a complex, multi-factorial process. I find it unlikely that such a simple explanation as bacteria lodged in the heart might in one fellswoop solve the problem of heart disease. But ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. Barry Marshall so strongly believed in his theory that ulcers were caused by H. Pylori in the stomach, that he drank a culture of bacteria and gave himself ulcers to prove it to his skeptical colleagues. And, twenty years later, he got a Nobel Prize to show for it. And so it may be that someone may develop irrefutable evidence for the theory you mentioned, and 20 years from now, get the Nobel prize. Or they may not.

But the point is that, just because the mainstream may have been off-track for many years due to groupthink (such as the cholesterol nonsense), doesn't mean that every wacky alternative theory is suddenly validated.

My only problem with the system is not the groupthink (which is IMHO unsolvable as long as humans are involved), but rather the fact that Big Pharma has had too much sway over that groupthink for the past 30-40 years.

On the other hand, if one truly thinks that mainstream medicine has made no progress over the last 100 years, I suggest going back and looking at life spans around 1900. It certainly reveals that medicine has made some little bit of progress since then.;)

[ax]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Well said, mcgurme. Turns out delivering babies after performing bare-handed autopsies wasn't good for maternal health, as I'm sure spraying your house plants with DDT wasn't very good for anybody's health.

[labasta]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Brillaint post mcgurme.

Sums it up well. We are trapped in the less than flexible framework which defines our career.

Here's an example. I know a person who had a problem with a chronic infection. A doctor prescribed an ongoing regimen of Ciprofloxacin for her. She was very concerned about taking it indefinitely, but he said "it is fine." It wasn't fine. She developed all sorts of side effects, AND the Cipro stopped working to control the infection (i.e. the bacteria developed resistance). At one point I mentioned ionic silver to her in passing. She was so desperate, she went right out and bought some, started using it, and within days her infection was in control. She was able to discontinue Cipro so that the side-effects went away. The ironic part is, she won't tell the doctor about using the silver, because she knows he would just patronizingly lecture her (yes, he's that kind of doctor). So she tells him she's still taking the Cipro, and he thinks it is the Cipro that has cleared the infection!

I've heard similar stories for cancer.

Patient X takes chemo or radiation therapy for cancer. No remission. X tries different alternative therapies and either lives for many years (when diagnoses was weeks or months from dying) or cancer goes away completely. X doesn't tell the doctors at the hospital as they "heavily frown" on such self-treatment and they think it was the chemo doing the trick. It's not that chemo is completely ineffective, but a bit barbaric and ill-informed to say the least.

Now one problem with this scenario is that the current market for ionic silver products is totally unregulated. So it is very much a matter of buyer beware. Because it is considered "fringe" by the FDA, there are many manufacturers that make many wild claims, and it is very hard to sort out which formulations are legitimate and actually have what they claim on the label. Since the FDA just labels all silver products as "quackery", it thereby leads to a situation where many of the people (not all) producing ionic silver products probably are quacks, just doing it for a quick buck. Worse still is that even if people have honest motives, there is very little research available on what forms of silver and what dosages are most effective. It clearly works to kill bacteria in a petri dish (I've done the experiment), but it is not clear what dose is appropriate for human use. And there is no way of knowing without some fairly large-scale research on it. Until the groupthink on this changes, that just won't happen.

You are in the group and you think differently. Be the light. You may be surprised how many contemporaries are secretly thinking the same. I know it's difficult to know the boundaries when rocking the boat. The power of money which ultimately controls the profession is beyond your control, but I'm sure you are influencing things in your own way the best you can.

You are not alone, there are thousands like you all over the profession.

Obviously, it is to your best judgment whether to be more useful outside or inside the system.

[labasta]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Quite.

Well, I am a believer in the scientific process. When I talk about alternative medicine, I'm not talking about crystals, aromatherapy etc.

I'm not an expert. I only get fleeting second-hand info on those who are.

The key word being "info".


In 1991, when I was first at the European conference for the IAOMT in D-dorf Germany, I was blown away by the amount of scientific research done in certain health areas. This research could not 100% prove one thing caused something, but it was 99% plus. I mean, they tested their theories on Chimpanzees and rabbits etc, but not on a human patient as part of a scientific process. That year opened my eyes to the underbelly. The research was there. So much science. It just wasn't public. The info wasn't in use. It was then after a few years I cam to realise why.

I remember the likely candidate for alzheimers being mercury poisoning from amalgam fillings. As I can remember it was that mecury lacked electrons (2 I think) which it needed and so reacted well with those molecules which had extra ones to give. Unfortunately, in the human body, it was sulfur in the myelin insulating sheath of the nerves which binded with the mercury. Because of this, the myelin sheath broke down and became less insulating so that a right mess ensued.

That's a layman's interpretation of a tiny snippet of what i heard. These guys were not a pulpit ranting alternative health doctor newsletter type thing. They were very hardcore scientists. Most of the data they presented to themselves went way way over my head. Even the simultaneous interpreters had to ask them to slow down.

The conference was largely funded by interested dentists (those with the money). The interpeters didn't come cheap.

Conventional medicine has its role, but it has way overstretched itself in very ineffective areas (namely degenerative diseases).

Also, herbal and electronic therapies have been lambasted and yet shown to be just as effective in a lot of areas.

Dentistry is the very hidden cause of a lot of diseases IMO. That's the real battlefront. The scientists actuatly named them the three amalgam wars.
One in the mid nineteenth century, one in the 1920s and one circa 1985 to the present. We are talking about prevention here rather than cure. But I suppose what is a cure, if it is not prevention, if you know what I mean. Take away the cause.

I've never tried colloidal silver as an anti-bacterial as I have never trusted it completely. I do recommend Oreganol oil p73. That is the bomb. You can over do though. I have used it as a once or twice off bang. I found that one three times stregnth tablet did the trick. I mistakenly took three of them once and got the runs.

[mcgurme]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

A physician named Broda Barnes spent his whole life studying the thyroid and how problems with how the body processes it may very well be linked to cancer, depression, heart disease, hypertension, and quite a few other chronic illnesses. The incidence of cancer and heart disease among a study of 1500 patients he treated over his career was extremely low. Much lower than would have been expected in a group that size.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broda_Otto_Barnes

Some really amazing stuff if true.

What I can't understand is why his studies are not pursued further. He's either a total liar, or there's a vested interest in the medical establishment in not following up his studies. Think about it. Dramatically lower cancer and heart disease with an inexpensive treatment that costs about $30 month. That would put a lot of drug companies and medical specialists out of work. Just something to think about.

I believe the issue he addressed as being due to thyroid deficiency, probably traces to something more fundamental, like widespread magnesium deficiency (e.g. http://www.krispin.com/magnes.html), that affects both thyroid and many other bodily functions. If you google it, you'll find a very strong link between Mg deficiency and the same diseases that he pinpointed.

As to why these studies weren't appreciated, it is for the same reason that I mentioned in my other post. The Big Pharma bullhorn leads to groupthink that ignores people like this. What profit is to be made in selling thyroid extract? Certainly not as much as selling Lipitor. So all the "big money" gets focused on the things like Lipitor.

[mcgurme]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Quite.

Well, I am a believer in the scientific process. When I talk about alternative medicine, I'm not talking about crystals, aromatherapy etc.

I'm not an expert. I only get fleeting second-hand info on those who are.

It sounds like we see this similarly. The issue I was trying to get at in my response to your post is that I've often seen people give up on conventional medicine, only to succumb to equally tempting, and even less substantiated, alternative therapies. It is now seems clear that you don't fall in that category.

What you point out about the scientists studying mercury is right. There often are scientists who study things like the effects of mercury, and come surprising conclusions, but then it can take years for that information to filter down to the working professionals like doctors and dentists (particularly when the bullhorn muddles the message).

Anyway, as to silver, I am cautious about my use of it, but after numerous experiences like the one I mentioned both amongst friends, family, and myself, I am becoming slowly more convinced, at least for anti-microbial use (there are many other claims about the miracles of silver, which I think are as yet unsubstantiated). And I do plan to do more rigorous research on it, I just have to figure out how to get funding to do that (without accepting funding from someone who has a profit motive).

[Slimprofits]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

The methods of Dr. John Sarno, for all intents and purposes, saved my life.

http://www.med.nyu.edu/people/J.Sarno.html

http://www.healingbackpain.com/

Physical therapy was useless.
Letting the pain win and doing nothing, was stupid.
Muscle relaxation pills softened the brain.
Open your mind and watch the pain fade away, permanently.

When my lower back even hints at tightening up and the muscles hint at a severe spasm which could spiral into a multi-day event during which I cannot move, my mind in a matter of seconds, armed with the tools fashioned by Dr. Sarno, now always defeats the very pain it is attempting to create. After suffering off and on for a few years, it is no longer an issue at all and nothing else changed. Same lifestyle, same work habits, same athletic pursuits, but different methods for defeating the pain.

[labasta]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

You gotta love the internet.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

It's not just root canals but also teeth extraction.

Oops -- I have a mouth full of expensive dentistry, including several root canals, implants, bridges and many crowns.

I am so screwed!

What should I do?

• Remove both jaws and sip through a straw?
• Rush down to the cemetery now and select my grave site?
• Invent a time machine, go back, and relive my life?

[labasta]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Hahaha.

Well, as luck would have it, your immune system could be strong enough, or your root canals are not infected. I can't remember if the number of infected root canals is one in three or two in three (judging from the Hall V-tox guy's experience). Anyway, that reminds of another snippet of info from 1991. It seems that genetics plays a big part in who reacts to how much.

One person may react badly to a tiny amount of infection or heavy metal, whereas someone else may have a whole shitload in them before any symptoms start to emerge.

If you have the money for private dental work, I recommend seeing a holistic dentist. Maybe a member of the IOAMT.

A very good one in the UK is http://www.hallvtox.dircon.co.uk/

This man will be able to recommend one in the US as he has good connections over there.

Hope that helps.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

What should I do?

Actually, the most useful thing I've done for my dental health in the last few years, besides nutrition (such as quality oils) has been getting a mirror like the ladies use for make-up, with magnification and lighting. This provides me a much finer view of my mouth and gum health.


The first key to proper action is proper understanding, and the first key to that is accurate data.

[flintlock]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Any internet search will turn up thousands of goofy "alternative" treatments. Its no wonder people tend to group them all together and throw out the good with the bad. In a modern world filled with liars, medicine has more than its share. It simply is mirroring what is going on in the rest of the world. I think there is valid alternative medicine, but unfortunately, there are low barriers to entry, and any kook can get involved and start selling their version, which they pluck right out of their ass.

It's my understanding big Pharma now funds a lot of the "research" going on. If that's true, then its no wonder they've become so dominant. And physicians are only repeating what they've read as being "proven" by this research.

I have no idea what the answer is to all this. :eek: