From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

It was a much better world when everyone had the opportunity to get smallpox.

Well ... obviously not.

Mechanisms have good uses and misuses.

Reacting to complaints about the misuses of vaccines as if one were objecting to all vaccines does not help clarify the discussion.

Similarly, your earlier reactions to complaints that the medical establishment has become substantially corrupt as if one were personally trashing all doctors did not help clarify the discussion.

May I encourage focus, clarity and compassion in your comments.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

To be fair, Jay, the post to which you were responding, lambasting vaccines, was just as over reactive. Perhaps because it was over reacting in the direction I lean, I didn't mind as much ;).

[Jay]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

To be fair, Jay, the post to which you were responding, lambasting vaccines, was just as over reactive. Perhaps because it was over reacting in the direction I lean, I didn't mind as much ;).

I stand by my post and don't see my answer as over reactive at all. I could add similar remarks about polio, tetanus, diptheria, and many others. None are diseases anyone here would want and fortunately those vaccines have helped humanity greatly.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

I stand by my post and don't see my answer as over reactive at all. I could add similar remarks about polio, tetanus, diptheria, and many others. None are diseases anyone here would want and fortunately those vaccines have helped humanity greatly.

Whether such vaccinations were a major contributor to the control of these diseases is a matter of some debate.

While I will grant that the substantial majority of references I find to vaccinations, including all the big and respected sources, support the value of vaccinations, a minority finds serious flaws in them. Those minority sites do tend to appeal to the tin-foil-hat conspiracist in me, that I will admit. I am sure that you, Jay, would not find those minority sites trustworthy.

As just one example, here's a graph from http://www.ivanfraser.com/articles/h...ccination.html claiming to present the death rates due to smallpox in England and Wales spanning the time that mandatory smallpox vaccination laws were enforced. The dominant pattern it shows is that smallpox was declining anyway. The secondary pattern it shows suggests that the mandatory vaccination actually caused a temporary spike back up in smallpox death rates.



I'd happily offer up more such links and data, however I doubt that doing so would further improve the value of this iTulip thread to iTulip. It's both a contentious subject and a subject that is rather far afield from the iTulip mission.

[Jay]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Whether such vaccinations were a major contributor to the control of these diseases is a matter of some debate.

While I will grant that the substantial majority of references I find to vaccinations, including all the big and respected sources, support the value of vaccinations, a minority finds serious flaws in them. Those minority sites do tend to appeal to the tin-foil-hat conspiracist in me, that I will admit. I am sure that you, Jay, would not find those minority sites trustworthy.

As just one example, here's a graph from http://www.ivanfraser.com/articles/h...ccination.html claiming to present the death rates due to smallpox in England and Wales spanning the time that mandatory smallpox vaccination laws were enforced. The dominant pattern it shows is that smallpox was declining anyway. The secondary pattern it shows suggests that the mandatory vaccination actually caused a temporary spike back up in smallpox death rates.



I'd happily offer up more such links and data, however I doubt that doing so would further improve the value of this iTulip thread to iTulip. It's both a contentious subject and a subject that is rather far afield from the iTulip mission.

TPC, I support rigorous questioning of all things that are accepted as facts in medicine or otherwise. I don't think that vigorous banging on a drum and painting an entire profession with generalisations is helpful and does not lead to fruitful dialogue. Evidence should be taken from both the mainstream and from other sources but should be held to a high standard. I have not read the sites you mention, and, certainly, would not discount them without examining them myself. I don't see as many hard truths in this world as some others, including those in mainstream medicine. That being said, I don't come off of my beliefs easily as it takes me a long time to form them. And, to be fair, much of the tin-foil-hat stuff in lay medical blogs is very limited.
Most people, and some physicians, don't understand the limitations in much of the literature and research. Something as simple, yet vital, as understanding the difference between sensitivity and specificity is confused often. Many discount the absolute importance of a method section. There are also many other issues that are overlooked in much of what is claimed as medical research. Once you get beyond the research, putting the knowledge into a practice takes years of work and hands-on patient contact and needs to be refined often. The truths when you find them should be held onto tightly.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Best to you Jay.

[petertribo]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

I don't think that vigorous banging on a drum and painting an entire profession with generalisations is helpful and does not lead to fruitful dialogue.

But, as pointed out, it is alright for a fellow professional to disparage European and Canadian health professionals which contributes nothing to a fruitful dialogue. Certainly a double standard.

As for "painting an entire profession with generalisations", Professor Of Medicine Doctor Nortin Hadler, a member of your own profession has already done that: "The institution of medicine is ethically bankrupt."

As for "banging on a drum" as you dismissively phrase it, here is more:

A Surge in MRIs
The profits some of these doctors are making through these scams could be the driving force between the recent surge in imaging procedures. Many believe medical imaging to be the fastest growing health-care service in the U.S.
Doctors in the United States ordered over 400 million imaging procedures last year, compared with only 281 million in 2000. But critics say it is hard to know how much of that growth has been a result of illegitimate referrals and shady business dealings, and how many are a result of a genuine rise in the need for imaging.
“I'm not sure anybody knows the scope of [the problem],” said Dr. David Levin, a radiologist at the Thomas Jefferson University Hospital. “It's big.”
Levin co-authored a study that found about $16 billion in unnecessary imaging was recommended by doctors who made money performing the tests themselves.

http://www.aconsumerfraudlawyer.com/...-scamming.html

To me, that sounds like a SUBPRIME BOOM in MRIs. Big BUBBLE.
Run these types of scams over all the different procedures that can be billed and you have $BILLIONS.

I will anticipate the answer: it is all the INSURANCE industry's fault. I see behaviour very similar to FIRE, lack of accountability and denial of any responsibility.

[ax]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Pete, I don't think you read my response to one of your earlier posts where I clearly do not bash the medical professionals of other parts of the world, simply point out that there are flaws with nationalized health care as well as the U.S. system.

I'll have to agree with Jay on vaccinations. Most pediatricians in this country will not accept your child as a patient if you refuse to immunize your child.

[yernamehear]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Perfection? No, but as usual, the utopian ideal as the standard is not reality. Judging real performance is always relative. The more useful discussion is about outcomes, and there are some good points in the post. However, generally, I would rather get U.S. health care than any other.
How U.S. Health Care Really Stacks Up

By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Thursday, March 26, 2009 4:20 PM PT
Facts: A movie has been made solely to criticize it. The left treats it as if it's an invader that must be repelled. Most Americans, however, are satisfied with this object of so much hate — America's health care industry.

..........


• "Lower-income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians." Nearly 12% of U.S. seniors with below-median incomes self-report being in "excellent" health, while 5.8% of Canadian seniors say the same thing.
• "Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the United Kingdom." Canadians and Britons wait about twice as long, sometimes more than a year, to see a specialist, have elective surgery or get radiation treatment.
• "People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed." More than seven in 10 Germans, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders and Britons say their health systems need either "fundamental change" or "complete rebuilding."
• "Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians." More than half (51.3%) of Americans are very satisfied with their health care services, while 41.5% of Canadians hold the same view of their system.
• "Americans have much better access to important new technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K." There are 34 CT scanners per million Americans. There are 12 per million in Canada and eight per million in Britain. The U.S. has nearly 27 MRI machines per million. Britain and Canada have 6 per million.
• "Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations." The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed nation; the most important recent medical innovations were developed here.
..........

[labasta]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Don't get me wrong. There are some amazingly good and courageous people out there. Members of the IAOMT are some. I went to one of their conferences in 1991. They were mostly doctors, dentists and scientists (biochemists) from around the world who stumbled on the truth scientifically, saw a huge moral discrepancy, reported it to their employers and then got fired.

Why? Because either it went against the othodoxy, but much more comon was it went against profit.


There is a whole stinking underbelly of decipt in the world of Mammon, that is unknown to the general public.


My personally opinion is that vaccines are not just useless, but downright dangerous.

I was first alerted to the problem a few years ago reading about the Spanish flu. How the towns in England where the vaccines was given suffered high rates of Spanish flu, whereas the the towns that didn't, didn't have a single case.


My opinion on why today everyone dies of degenerative diseases like cancer and heart disease, and in the "old" days people died of infectious diseases like typhoid and smallpox etc. is that:

1. People had a very close proximity to animals. They worked with them etc. Animals are very dirty creatures. Today the only proximity we come to animals is in a supermarket and our pets.

2. Clean water. Sewage systems , running water etc. We don't shit in our drinking and bathing water anymore like we used to not that long ago.

Today's diseases probably come about through either old age, if you live long enough something will get you, and pollution.

1. Tens of thousands of all kinds of chemicals are being made and sold and then put back in the water supply. Pesticide run off is one of many. If it's made, it is in the environment. Low oxygen levels in cities due to the combustion engine hasn't helped either. And of course heavy metals, nearly all from your teeth.

2. Nutritionally bankrupt food. Low minerals, high white sugar and floor makes Jack a depressed boy. Most people are cavemen and need to eat a diet low in wheat and refined sugar.

That's it in a nutshell. Only my opinon of course.

[labasta]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

I completely forgot about the other dangers of dentistry. The mouth is our immediate environment that has been inadvertently messed with. Root canals are extremely dangerous and to be avoided at all costs. This is where bacteria get down into the tiny canals and pockets in the teeth and grow, giving off toxins and suppressing the immune system. It's the number one suspect for cancer. See http://www.amazon.com/Root-Canal-Cov.../dp/0916764095

Or google Dr. Weston A. Price.

It's not just root canals but also teeth extraction. When the bone is snapped (by accident) it can leave cavities which unknowingly become infected.

Dentistry is probably the cutting edge of REAL medicine in my belief:

http://www.hallvtox.dircon.co.uk/cavroot.html



Happy reading.

[mcgurme]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

* Speech at Carnegie Mellon University (10 April 1980), allegedly referring to Ronald Reagan
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush

Voodoo Economics certainly entails a high cost but what about Voodoo Medicine?:

Are we ready for the truth? Not in Economics.
Are we ready for the truth in Medicine?

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/0...f-health-care/

While I work in basic biomedical research, I am very leery about being treated by doctors for this exact reason, unless it is something for which I know there is a precisely defined and proven cure.

You ask are we ready for the truth? Well, when I first found out how much of a sham the whole "cholesterol and heart disease" link is, I was astounded. Well, having gotten over that, I am not so astounded, since I realize how much money is to be made by propagating the nonsense about cholesterol (it promotes fear which sells drugs).

[flintlock]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

A physician named Broda Barnes spent his whole life studying the thyroid and how problems with how the body processes it may very well be linked to cancer, depression, heart disease, hypertension, and quite a few other chronic illnesses. The incidence of cancer and heart disease among a study of 1500 patients he treated over his career was extremely low. Much lower than would have been expected in a group that size.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broda_Otto_Barnes

Some really amazing stuff if true.

What I can't understand is why his studies are not pursued further. He's either a total liar, or there's a vested interest in the medical establishment in not following up his studies. Think about it. Dramatically lower cancer and heart disease with an inexpensive treatment that costs about $30 month. That would put a lot of drug companies and medical specialists out of work. Just something to think about.

[labasta]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Welcome Mcgurne.

You are now on one incredible journey into the world of medicine. He he

You've stumbled across another biggie: the cholesterol myth. The latest research on heart disease which I just read is that it is caused by bacteria becoming lodged in the weak point of the one of the main blood vessels. They fester in the u-shaped bit of the vessel. I'll try and dig up a link.

It gets worse... hehehe

One of the worst is the AIDS myth, that really really pissed me off when I heard about it in the late 90s!

Another link: http://aidsmyth.addr.com/index1.htm

After reading stuff like this, you wonder if there is any hope for humanity at all.

Also google Peter Duesberg, Professor of Molecular Biology at Berkeley

[labasta]

Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Dramatically lower cancer and heart disease with an inexpensive treatment that costs about $30 month.

You answered it yourself.