Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

    It just isn't going to work, and it's very interesting that the man who invested this type of what I call a voodoo economic policy...
    * Speech at Carnegie Mellon University (10 April 1980), allegedly referring to Ronald Reagan
    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush

    Voodoo Economics certainly entails a high cost but what about Voodoo Medicine?:

    The practice of medicine contains countless examples of elegant medical theories that belie the best available evidence.

    * Recent press reports detailing the dangers of cough syrup for children have noted that cough syrup doesn’t work. True: No cough remedies have ever been proven better than a placebo, either for adults or children. Yet their use is common.
    * Patients with ear infections are more likely to be harmed by antibiotics than helped. While the pills may cause a small decrease in symptoms (for which ear drops work better), the infections typically recede within days regardless of treatment. The same is true for bronchitis, sinusitis, and sore throats. Unnecessary antibiotics are still given to more than one in seven Americans each year for these conditions alone, at a cost of more than $2 billion and tens of thousands of serious adverse medication effects requiring treatment.
    * Back surgeries to relieve pain are, in the majority of cases, no better than nonsurgical treatment. Yet doctors perform 600,000 of these surgeries each year, at a cost of over $20 billion.
    * More than a half million Americans per year undergo arthroscopic surgery to correct osteoarthritis of the knee, at a cost of $3 billion. Despite this, studies show the surgery to be no better than sham knee surgery, in which surgeons “pretend” to do surgery while the patient is under light anesthesia. It is also no better than much cheaper, and much less invasive, physical therapy.

    Treatment based on ideology is alluring. Surgeries to repair the knee should work. A syrup to reduce cough should help. Calming the straining heart should save lives. But the uncomfortable truth is that many expensive, invasive interventions are of little or no benefit and cause potentially uncomfortable, costly, and dangerous side effects and complications. [my bold]

    The critical question that looms for health care reform is whether patients, doctors and experts are prepared to set aside ideology in the face of data. Can we abide by the evidence when it tells us that antibiotics don’t clear ear infections or help strep throats? Can we stop asking for, and writing, these prescriptions? Can we stop performing, and asking for, knee and back surgeries? Can we handle what the evidence reveals? Are we ready for the truth?
    Are we ready for the truth? Not in Economics.
    Are we ready for the truth in Medicine?

    http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/0...f-health-care/

  • #2
    Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

    Originally posted by petertribo View Post
    The critical question that looms for health care reform is whether patients, doctors and experts are prepared to set aside ideology in the face of data. Can we abide by the evidence when it tells us that antibiotics don’t clear ear infections or help strep throats? Can we stop asking for, and writing, these prescriptions? Can we stop performing, and asking for, knee and back surgeries? Can we handle what the evidence reveals? Are we ready for the truth?
    "Can we handle what the evidence reveals?" actually means, "Can we do the best for our patients rather than our pocketbooks?" Isn't this all about money?

    Doctors often use the lame excuse, "The parents wanted the antibiotics, even though I knew it wouldn't do any good, so I gave it to them." What they really means is, rather than lose a good customer to a more accommodating doctor, they give the patients what they want.

    Given that health-care costs are a huge and growing part of the US economy, the fact that ineffective and costly medical treatments are widely practiced is an issue of grave consequence.

    Are the pharmaceutical and medical profession knowingly perpetrating fraud by creating and selling ineffective treatments? Do they purposely avoid research to validate their "products'" effectiveness? Imagine that . . . corporations putting peoples' lives at risk just to make money. Who would have thought? By the way . . . got a cigarette? ;)

    With the financial elite, you only lose your your money . . . with the medico's you lose your money and maybe your life.

    Just like the financial world, the medical profession and pharmaceutical industry needs regulation, because they have shown that they can't be trusted to regulate themselves. Maybe then we can cut down on the out-of-control health care expenditures that are contributing to our country's financial ruin.
    raja
    Boycott Big Banks • Vote Out Incumbents

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

      Originally posted by petertribo View Post
      Are we ready for the truth?
      Not when there is sufficient money, power or prestige on the line.

      Just as some iTuliper's have forsaken the main stock markets, until they are honest again (which may well not be in our lifetime), so would I suggest forsaking main stream medicine and pharmaceuticals for chronic illnesses. For accident trauma and battlefield injuries, they are the best. But I would not invest my day to day health or nutrition in them.
      Most folks are good; a few aren't.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

        Yeah, there's not a doubt in my mind that the medical establishment is every bit as corrupt as the banksters. Its all very corporate now. They have their business consultants come in and tell them how to practice medicine profitably. It really has become all about the money with a lot of them.

        Anyone else out there notice doctor's offices looking like ghost towns lately? On my last three doctor visits, I'm the only person there. And these are big offices with multiple partners. And now every doctor tells me to come back in a few weeks for a "follow up".( I don't) Never used to hear that.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

          Originally posted by raja View Post
          Just like the financial world, the medical profession and pharmaceutical industry needs regulation, because they have shown that they can't be trusted to regulate themselves.
          Regulation is no panacea.

          Once an industry is sufficiently powerful, regulation does more harm than good. It becomes a tool of the powerful to extend monopolies, increase compulsory demand, shut out competition, avoid unfavorable law suits, proliferate favorable law suits, spread favorable propaganda, shut down unfavorable propaganda, ...
          Most folks are good; a few aren't.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

            Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
            Not when there is sufficient money, power or prestige on the line.

            Just as some iTuliper's have forsaken the main stock markets, until they are honest again (which may well not be in our lifetime), so would I suggest forsaking main stream medicine and pharmaceuticals for chronic illnesses. For accident trauma and battlefield injuries, they are the best. But I would not invest my day to day health or nutrition in them.
            Exactly my take on it. Great for acute illness but next to worthless for any chronic problems. Unfortunately, a lot of the alternative physicians are just as scammy, if not worse.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

              It looks like many of you are having fun painting all physicians with the same brush. Well, congrats. It is also ignorant and the easy, unthinking man's way out. Do you really think that physicians as a body are so homogenous? I don't excuse for one second the problems in medicine and that article highlights a few of them. Not, by far, the biggest, but real problems none the less. But to lose sight of the fact that there are doc's out there who's mission is to provide solid care to those that need it is unfortunate. If you come into my Emergency Department dying, you might be happy to see a qualified, caring individual pulling you away from a dark place. Your flippant comments may be more tempered afterward. I could have followed the siren song of easy money through a vapid career in easier fields, but thought I might make a difference instead, and I'm not the only one. Medicine is broken, but to blame the practitioners as a body is too easy and limited.
              Last edited by Jay; April 05, 2009, 08:33 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

                Originally posted by Jay View Post
                It looks like you are having fun painting all physicians with the same brush
                It's not a personal slam ... it's a slam of the profession.

                It would be very difficult for a medical doctor to practice the sort of medicine which I would be interested to purchase (outside of acute trauma sorts of things) and still keep his license, sanity and insurance.

                In some ways it is how I feel about United States Presidents as well. There are one or two in the last few decades for whom I had considerable respect and affection, to whom I would be happy to marry off my daughter (if I had one.)

                But the job has become quite impossible to do right.
                Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

                  Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                  It's not a personal slam ... it's a slam of the profession.

                  It would be very difficult for a medical doctor to practice the sort of medicine which I would be interested to purchase (outside of acute trauma sorts of things) and still keep his license, sanity and insurance.

                  In some ways it is how I feel about United States Presidents as well. There are one or two in the last few decades for whom I had considerable respect and affection, to whom I would be happy to marry off my daughter (if I had one.)

                  But the job has become quite impossible to do right.
                  Well, slam away. But what the profession needs is a reasoned examination of its problems, not a knee jerk, uneducated reaction. To forget that most doc's are actually interested in their patients well being and not just their pocket book is just silly and a lay, uninformed opinion. If you come to my Emergency Department, I will still save your ass if can be. THAT is my job, not checking to see if you will pay. And, of course, there are doc's who are not so enlightened. But to throw the baby out with the bath water will get you the stone age and skull trephinations. Looking at some of the ridiculous comments here, some of you want that.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

                    Originally posted by flintlock View Post
                    Exactly my take on it. Great for acute illness but next to worthless for any chronic problems. Unfortunately, a lot of the alternative physicians are just as scammy, if not worse.
                    Have fun with your diabetes and hypertension; and losing weight doesn't work for everyone. Do you know how many children died before insulin? All of them that got type one diabetes.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

                      Originally posted by Jay View Post
                      Well, slam away. But what the profession needs is a reasoned examination of its problems, not a knee jerk, uneducated reaction. To forget that most doc's are actually interested in their patients well being and not just their pocket book is just silly and a lay, uninformed opinion. If you come to my Emergency Department, I will still save your ass if can be. THAT is my job, not checking to see if you will pay. And, of course, there are doc's who are not so enlightened. But to throw the baby out with the bath water will get you the stone age and skull trephinations. Looking at some of the ridiculous comments here, some of you want that.
                      I'd gladly trust you, or whatever doctor is on duty, in the Emergency Dept, when my ass is on the line. I've repeatedly qualified my statements as applying to chronic treatments, not trauma.

                      And I never said or intended to imply that most doctors were just interested in the money, not in their patients well being.

                      It's not the motives, skill or dedication of the individual that I malign. The medicine that they teach you guys to apply to chronic illnesses is broken. As usual (some Congressman and Senators excepted) individuals tend to be a decent, hard working, honest lot, unless their integrity is destroyed by way too many years of socialist welfare, shunted opportunity, and lack of good hard work. Certainly doctors do not lack for good hard work.

                      You're taking things too personally, sir.

                      Look to see where the greatest piles of money and power are that involve health care. You will see the Rockefeller foundations, the big pharmaceutical companies, the trial lawyers, the top medical universities, the top teaching hospitals, the most prestigious medical journals, the AMA and ADA, the CDC and FDA, and further down the list, a few of the top paid surgeons.

                      My distrust lies with some on that list.

                      It is not an entirely uneducated distrust either. Though I have no formal medical education, I have spent years reading and studying such matters, in pursuit of my own good health, over many decades.

                      I may be wrong, but whether or not that is the case, I am betting my life on my conclusions.

                      Currently, I carry no health insurance, even though I am not young, and could easily afford it and have no "prior conditions" that would make obtaining it difficult. I do so intentionally; it's like doing a high wire act without a net in that it focuses the mind. I figure it is better I take the best care I can of my health, as if there were no fall back, than let myself slip, trusting that modern medicine can fix up whatever problems occur.

                      I am putting my money ... er eh my health (which I value more) ... where my mouth is.

                      My best to you, and may you be the one on call when my ass is on the line.
                      Last edited by ThePythonicCow; April 05, 2009, 09:47 PM. Reason: add AMA and ADA
                      Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

                        Originally posted by Jay View Post
                        Have fun with your diabetes and hypertension; and losing weight doesn't work for everyone. Do you know how many children died before insulin? All of them that got type one diabetes.
                        Type one diabetes might be one of the exceptions to my comments. Might be. I don't personally have it (though three of my cousins do), so I haven't been motivated to come to life affecting conclusions on it.

                        Though not type two diabetes or hypertension. Now we're getting closer to the area where I have chosen (not to get too specific about my own medical history) to part ways with modern day American medicine and nutrition.

                        This is not the right forum for me to attempt or expect to change your mind. Just know that some folks are quite serious about alternatives. Life and death serious. And having fun doing it .
                        Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

                          Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                          I'd gladly trust you, or whatever doctor is on duty, in the Emergency Dept, when my ass is on the line. I've repeatedly qualified my statements as applying to chronic treatments, not trauma.

                          And I never said or intended to imply that most doctors were just interested in the money, not in their patients well being.

                          It's not the motives, skill or dedication of the individual that I malign. The medicine that they teach you guys to apply to chronic illnesses is broken. As usual (some Congressman and Senators excepted) individuals tend to be a decent, hard working, honest lot, unless their integrity is destroyed by way too many years of socialist welfare, shunted opportunity, and lack of good hard work. Certainly doctors do not lack for good hard work.

                          You're taking things too personally, sir.

                          Look to see where the greatest piles of money and power are that involve health care. You will see the Rockefeller foundations, the big pharmaceutical companies, the trial lawyers, the top medical universities, the top teaching hospitals, the most prestigious medical journals, the CDC and FDA, and further down the list, a few of the top paid surgeons.

                          My distrust lies with some on that list.

                          It is not an entirely uneducated distrust either. Though I have no formal medical education, I have spent years reading and studying such matters, in pursuit of my own good health, over many decades.

                          I may be wrong, but whether or not that is the case, I am betting my life on my conclusions.

                          Currently, I carry no health insurance, even though I am not young, and could easily afford it and have no "prior conditions" that would make obtaining it difficult. I do so intentionally; it's like doing a high wire act without a net in that it focuses the mind. I figure it is better I take the best care I can of my health, as if there were no fall back, than let myself slip, trusting that modern medicine can fix up whatever problems occur.

                          I am putting my money ... er eh my health (which I value more) ... where my mouth is.

                          My best to you, and may you be the one on call when my ass is on the line.
                          TPC, thank you for your thoughtful post. My reaction was not to you specifically, but to the tenor of the thread in general. I agree that the greatest corruption lies smack in the middle of those "piles of money," which are not in the hands of individual physicians. The most fruitful course of action to fix the problems in medicine is to follow the money. As in everything else, that is where the preponderant corruption lies.

                          Otherwise, I agree with much of what you say except about chronic conditions. While many can be dealt with outside of classical medicine, and some with excellent results, there are plenty of chronic conditions that are best suited to at least have the sidecar of a caring qualified physician in attendance: diabetes, hypertension, hypercholesterolemia, other endocrine abnormalities, coronary artery disease and other vascular diseases, and a few prudent semi-invasive diagnostic procedures, like colonoscopy and mammograms in the right patient population, among many others off the top of my head. The list is actually quite long when I think about it.

                          People are afraid of the unknown, it is natural. But there is a lot in medicine that works and has been proven, acute and chronic.
                          Last edited by Jay; April 05, 2009, 09:47 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

                            Originally posted by Jay View Post
                            TPC, thank you for your thoughtful post.
                            You're welcome.
                            Originally posted by Jay View Post
                            Otherwise, I agree with much of what you say except about chronic conditions. While many can be dealt with outside of classical medicine, and some with excellent results, there are plenty of chronic conditions that are best suited to at least have the sidecar of a caring qualified physician in attendance: diabetes, hypertension, hypercholesterolemia, other endocrine abnormalities, and a few prudent semi-invasive diagnostic procedures, like colonoscopy and mammograms in the right patient population, among others off the top of my head.
                            There I respectively disagree, and wish you well.
                            Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: From Voodoo Economics to Voodoo Medicine

                              Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                              You're welcome.There I respectively disagree, and wish you well.
                              If you develop diabetes, who is going to treat it? Edit: Just saw your other post, we can agree to disagree. I just won't change your diaper when you have a stroke from familial hypertension that could have been treated. ;)
                              Last edited by Jay; April 05, 2009, 09:56 PM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X