BullionVault Question

[Charles Mackay]

BullionVault.Com says:

"However all this caution in the Galmarley structure is secondary, because the gold you buy on BullionVault and store at Brinks is your outright property. Our structure ensures that the continued prosperity of Galmarley, Lloyds TSB bank, and even Brinks — or their failure — has no impact on your ownership of your gold. You retain the ability to realise its proper market value whatever the future may have in store for us."

Has anyone looked into how they actually do that? If BullionVault goes broke, how do you get your gold from Brinks?

Thanks,
Charles

[Finster]

Re: BullionVault Question

BullionVault.Com says:

"However all this caution in the Galmarley structure is secondary, because the gold you buy on BullionVault and store at Brinks is your outright property. Our structure ensures that the continued prosperity of Galmarley, Lloyds TSB bank, and even Brinks — or their failure — has no impact on your ownership of your gold. You retain the ability to realise its proper market value whatever the future may have in store for us."

Has anyone looked into how they actually do that? If BullionVault goes broke, how do you get your gold from Brinks?

Thanks,
Charles

Search me. Sorry to reply without actually answering your question, but a perspective might be helpful.

Think of your PM holdings as being in two parts. The part you keep for security, the if-everything-goes-to-hell part. And the part that you keep in a form and place to make it convenient to adjust your position as circumstances warrant.

That first part, IMO, should be bullion in your own physical possession. You are relying on no one but yourself for its safety and security. Of course having all your precious metals here can make it difficult to increase or decrease your exposure as, say, price swings make it too small or too large a part of you portfolio. Enter the second part. Here you can keep some in other, more convenient forms, such as a pool account with Kitco, Central Fund of Canada (CEF) shares, ETF shares, BullionVault, or whatever. This way you have a convenience aspect as well.

Of course, you don't want to throw all caution to the wind with this second part either. But here you just do the best you can to have reasonable assurance of safety. There is no such thing as absolute certainty.

[jk]

Re: BullionVault Question

in another thread, "charles mackay" asked ej why he appeared to prefer bullionvault to e.g. perth mint certificates. i would like to second that question.

[Finster]

Re: BullionVault Question

in another thread, "charles mackay" asked ej why he appeared to prefer bullionvault to e.g. perth mint certificates. i would like to second that question.

If context is relevant to a post, there's nothing like posting it in context!

[Charles Mackay]

Re: BullionVault Question

in another thread, "charles mackay" asked ej why he appeared to prefer bullionvault to e.g. perth mint certificates. i would like to second that question.

Right jk, may as well combine those threads here.

If you include the buy and sell commissions at BullionVault it adds up to 1.6%... PMC on the other hand is 2% on the buy, no charge on the sell at spot. PMC also has no storage fee on unallocated gold or silver whereas BV.com charges .12% per annum. I like the audit trail of BV but I like the gov't guarantee of PMC. I also like the fact that you can store in 3 different vault locations with BV and can maneuver back and forth if you saw a problem in one country (a terrorist attack in London and you can move to brinks in Switzerland for example)

Anyone have any feedback here?
Thanks, Charles

[Finster]

Re: BullionVault Question

Right jk, may as well combine those threads here.

Or better yet, not leave the original thread in the first place.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: BullionVault Question

There is no such thing as absolute certainty.

Yes, there is, but here may not be any such thing as absolute safety.

[Finster]

Re: BullionVault Question

Yes, there is, but here may not be any such thing as absolute safety.

I stand corrected!

[jk]

Re: BullionVault Question

Right jk, may as well combine those threads here.

If you include the buy and sell commissions at BullionVault it adds up to 1.6%... PMC on the other hand is 2% on the buy, no charge on the sell at spot. PMC also has no storage fee on unallocated gold or silver whereas BV.com charges .12% per annum. I like the audit trail of BV but I like the gov't guarantee of PMC. I also like the fact that you can store in 3 different vault locations with BV and can maneuver back and forth if you saw a problem in one country (a terrorist attack in London and you can move to brinks in Switzerland for example)

Anyone have any feedback here?
Thanks, Charles

i gather that at bv the holdings are allocated to individual owners, not pooled. the perth holdings have no storage fee only if you are unallocated. if you purchase a numbered, allocated bar then there is a storage fee.

[Spartacus]

Re: BullionVault Question

Also, have you considered getting a safety deposit box?

When I got my bullion that turned out to be the cheapest way for me to get it - even if I trusted the banks to sell me a certificate, they would not let me have the certificates - they demanded they store the certificates for a fee, and that turned out to be higher than the safety deposit box.

Remember that if you have no Silver, just Gold and Platinum, the box can be very, very small.

If you don't want a box in the US then say Niagara Falls, Ontario if you're in NY, or Windsor if you're in Michigan or Montreal if you're in Vermont/Maine/MA, or Vancouver if you're in Seattle, or Calgary if you're in Minnesota or ND, or Tiuana if you're in California (I have no idea what that entails, or the safety of doing it).

It's worth noting that some United Staters residing in Canada set up shop in Canada to hold Gold on behalf of US residents. They probably lied about the nature of the business to the Canadian authorities, but it was a going business for a few people.

BullionVault.Com says:

"However all this caution in the Galmarley structure is secondary, because the gold you buy on BullionVault and store at Brinks is your outright property. Our structure ensures that the continued prosperity of Galmarley, Lloyds TSB bank, and even Brinks — or their failure — has no impact on your ownership of your gold. You retain the ability to realise its proper market value whatever the future may have in store for us."

Has anyone looked into how they actually do that? If BullionVault goes broke, how do you get your gold from Brinks?

Thanks,
Charles

[Spartacus]

Re: BullionVault Question

I spoke for a good hour at least to Mr. Spicer of CEF. Answered all my questions - even told me how to avoid his fund if I wanted to (which bank branches to go to, where the safety boxes are, etc ...). And I did hold some CEF for a while, probably will again.

Over on the SSRI Yahoo board someone asked various questions about LBMA and SLV (the Silver ETF) and Barclays and the JPM vault where the Silver would be stored - and I replied with

"here's the phone number for Barclays and the JPMorgan vault facility in London where the Silver will be stored - phone and ask (They weren't my questions so I didn't phone and ask) "

Someone in London did phone - they answered all the questions.

I told the guy to arrange a tour of the JPM facility and asked him to take pics if he got in (130 million ounces of silver must be quite a sight - and in fact there might actually be much more, if there is other-than-SLV's Silver being held there), but that was a non-starter.

So ... why don't you phone them? Or email them?

"What's the procedure in place, what documentation do I need, who do I need to contact, in what order, what forms do I need to fill out, what address do I drive to, to pick up the materials, what identification will I be asked for?"

If they refuse to send details, tell them you suspect there are no procedures in place, threaten to send the brochure to the regulatory authorities.

When I really get a bug up my ass and think someone is lying through their ass I record phone calls (legal where I am) - a $10 piece of equipment from Radio Shack - but you don't sound like you've been rubbed the wrong way.

BullionVault.Com says:

"However all this caution in the Galmarley structure is secondary, because the gold you buy on BullionVault and store at Brinks is your outright property. Our structure ensures that the continued prosperity of Galmarley, Lloyds TSB bank, and even Brinks — or their failure — has no impact on your ownership of your gold. You retain the ability to realise its proper market value whatever the future may have in store for us."

Has anyone looked into how they actually do that? If BullionVault goes broke, how do you get your gold from Brinks?

Thanks,
Charles

[Finster]

Re: BullionVault Question

Also, have you considered getting a safety deposit box?

Again, no absolute safety. The word of Franklin D Roosevelt's 1933 Executive Order confiscating gold should be chilling:

"Your possession of these proscribed metals and/or your maintenance of a safe-deposit box to store them is known to the Government from bank and insurance records. Therefore, be advised that your vault must remain sealed, and may only be opened in the presence of an agent of the Internal Revenue Service."

[jk]

Re: BullionVault Question

if anyone [in the u.s.] has in fact rented a safety deposit box in canada, i'm curious about the logistics. have you purchased pms in the us and taken them to canada in your luggage? purchase in canada? how have you worked the mechanics?

[Spartacus]

Re: BullionVault Question - storing in Canada

if anyone [in the u.s.] has in fact rented a safety deposit box in canada, i'm curious about the logistics. have you purchased pms in the us and taken them to canada in your luggage? purchase in canada? how have you worked the mechanics?

I really don't know what to tell you about this conclusively - I can tell you a couple of things you should consider.

If the border guards take a disliking to you they can decide that you're carrying cash for drug transactions and confiscate your gold. Just because someone else has made it through with no problems doesn't mean you will. So you might think it's better to buy in Canada with a Visa or something.

But if you buy in Canada in several provinces you may get hit with various provincial sales taxes.

"specialty" coins (gold and Silver and platinum - anything not normally used as money) are subject to provincial sales taxes in several provinces.

Bullion is not subject to any tax (provincial or federal) that I know of at purchase (Canadians have to pay capital gains if they sell at profit but that won't apply to you), but you can't walk into just any bank and buy bullion. They also want your personal information so they can report the capital gains to the government (the so called T-5 tax form) - I doubt they'll ask you that information if you show your US ID.

The federal government may end the practice of refunding federal sales tax to tourists - not enough tourists apply for the refund to make the program worthwhile, so your annual safety deposit box fee will be taxed at the federal sales tax rate (the "GST", 7%)

We're luckier than the Europeans, anyway - I've heard bullion is taxed in Europe (the GST was patterned on Britain's VAT, so I don't know how bullion got exempted here and not there).

How about GoldMoney, or one of the the ETFs - despite being an SEC regulated security, I doubt the US government can confiscate gold or Silver held in London.

[EJ]

Re: BullionVault Question

BullionVault.Com says:

"However all this caution in the Galmarley structure is secondary, because the gold you buy on BullionVault and store at Brinks is your outright property. Our structure ensures that the continued prosperity of Galmarley, Lloyds TSB bank, and even Brinks — or their failure — has no impact on your ownership of your gold. You retain the ability to realise its proper market value whatever the future may have in store for us."

Has anyone looked into how they actually do that? If BullionVault goes broke, how do you get your gold from Brinks?

Thanks,
Charles

I like BullionVault better than Perth Mint certs because it has all the advantages of Perth Mint Certs plus I can trade gold in my account on BV with thousands of other account holders 7/24.