Who Killed the Electric Car? A "MUST SEE" FILM

[ggirod]

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car? A "MUST SEE" FILM

From Chris:

As a child I grew up sleeping on real Linen sheets and can atest to their superior qualities. Today it is impossible to find anything made of real Linen. A major industry that can be revived once again is in everybodies best interests...

If anybody could make a go of it, including in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, or China you would have your linen sheets -- that is ... if you and your neighbors wanted to pay for them. Bottom line is nobody has the cash to buy linen anymore, or if they do they are using permanent press sheets and saving up for a hybrid car.

By the way, more on topic, my 2000 Saturn still gets 37 Mpg, cost $12K when new, has almost 200K miles on it, and runs like a top. I might consider a hybrid if it were cost effective. 2000 was the last year they made it, of course. We don't even necessarily need hybrids to save gas, just common sense and the ability to resist the marketing droids who want to sell us behemoths.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car? A "MUST SEE" FILM

As a child I grew up sleeping on real Linen sheets and can atest to their superior qualities. Today it is impossible to find anything made of real Linen. A major industry that can be revived once again is in everybodies best interests...

When I attempt a google search for "linen sheets", I find several vendors of what appear to be quality goods. In general, for merchandise that is not volume sales mass-market, I shop online. Trying to get such items in the local retail shops is a waste of time.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car? A "MUST SEE" FILM

Pure electric vehicles face two fundamental problems: Battery capacity and recharge times. Years ago we did research that showed the important challenges.

First, the amounts of energy and power delivered by the chemical fuel industry are orders of magnitude greater than the electric grid. Our national electricity grids deliver small amounts of energy and power with magical convenience, that's why we love them. But gasoline and diesel fuel are hugely more energetic and do the heavy lifting in our economy, thermally. Here's an example.

When you pump gasoline into your auto, you are transferring energy at a rate - that's a power rate. If a US gallon of gasoline has 114,000 BTU and you pump it at 6 gal/minute, you can convert that into watts. It comes to 12 million watts. Just a few electric cars attempting to refuel would overwhelm the local grid. Diesel trucks and buses are even more so. Diesel at 129,500 BTU/gallon pumped at 20 gpm is 43 million watts. Just a dozen large trucks refueling would consume the total output of a commercial power plant.

If EV's are double or triple the efficiency of typical cars and trucks it won't close the gap - they need to be 100 times more efficient, and that's unlikely.

Batteries are the other fundamental challenge. The good old lead-acid battery in your car contains the energy equivalent of about a tablespoon of gasoline, that's all. And you can only use about 5% of that small energy if you expect the battery to live for 3 years. Modern advanced batteries are much better, but only twice as good or four times as good. In the end, pure EV's need huge, heavy expensive batteries to carry enough energy for even a small urban range, and it's hard to get them to live very long.

And like any good conundrum, these two problems aggravate each other - you want a lightweight, efficient EV but need to carry huge heavy batteries.

And by the way, this is why hybrids are so popular and successful. The gasoline tank refuels quickly and carries the big energy; the small motor-generator coverts power to electricity so we can use an electric drive motor (small, reliable, tons of torque) and we add a modest battery pack for peak-shaving and regenerative braking.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car? A "MUST SEE" FILM

When you pump gasoline into your auto, you are transferring energy at a rate - that's a power rate. If a US gallon of gasoline has 114,000 BTU and you pump it at 6 gal/minute, you can convert that into watts. It comes to 12 million watts. Just a few electric cars attempting to refuel would overwhelm the local grid. Diesel trucks and buses are even more so. Diesel at 129,500 BTU/gallon pumped at 20 gpm is 43 million watts. Just a dozen large trucks refueling would consume the total output of a commercial power plant

This compares refill/recharge rates unfairly, and it posits an unrealistic straw man.

One should not compare human attended prime time refill rates with unattended overnight recharging rates. I am willing to leave an electric car plugged into the mains all night long, while our electric generation and transmission capability is otherwise underutilized, and I am fast asleep (or perusing iTulip ;).) I would rather not stand at a gas pump for more than a few minutes.

Electric cars make sense for light use, usually just one or two passengers for less than say 50 miles per day average. Then one can refuel them at a reasonable power draw overnight.

One has to keep in mind the daily cycle of electric power demand. Any power generation source (such as a natural gas powered generator) that can easily be varied in daily cycles has a natural advantage over a source (such as nuclear) that is difficult to vary that quickly, or over a source (such as wind) that is difficult to control. Any power draw (such as charging batteries overnight) has a natural advantage over a draw (such as air conditioning) that hits right at demand peak times.

So ... power recharging/refill rates do matter, but it matters both (1) whether the human is (more or less) present for the process and (2) whether this happens overnight or not.

The straw man is that no reasonable person is suggesting we convert long haul big rig trucking to pure electric batteries charged off the grid. That makes only a little more sense than converting commercial passenger airliners to pure wind or geothermal . The human attended refill/recharge rates and the energy per pound of fuel/battery are both critical for long haul trucking. That's a key reason that they use diesel rather than gasoline.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car? A "MUST SEE" FILM

This compares refill/recharge rates unfairly, and it posits an unrealistic straw man.

One should not compare human attended prime time refill rates with unattended overnight recharging rates. I am willing to leave an electric car plugged into the mains all night long, while our electric generation and transmission capability is otherwise underutilized, and I am fast asleep (or perusing iTulip ;).).

True enough, but the point still holds when you postulate many people switching to EV's. I've installed EV chargers -they draw 50 amps and run all night. A few million of those in LA or Paris would have the local utility pulling it's hair out.

Europe's electric trains are a truly superior EV , not vast fleets of little cars each lugging around 1000 pounds of batteries. Electrochemical batteries are just a lousy energy storage solution.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car? A "MUST SEE" FILM

True enough, but the point still holds when you postulate many people switching to EV's.

Well then ... don't postulate that .

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car? A "MUST SEE" FILM

LOL! I like your style!

EV commuter cars are very small, low powered, short range autos. If we bought little diesel autos like that we'd probably do more for the environment, considering the toxic aspects of those battery packs and the energy cost of hauling them around. By the way, if you use 10 gallons of gasoline each week in your little commuter car, that would convert to about 325 killowatt hours of electricity each week, or about 1400 kWHr / month. The average US home uses about 950 kWHr / month. Even one tiny little car uses much more energy than a whole house. At a national scale, if two normal cars in each household were replaced with 2 tiny EV's, we'd need to triple the national grid capacity. EV's don't make practical sense.

[bobola]

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car? A "MUST SEE" FILM

Chris,

Nice thread. Interesting discussion.

My big interest is to see folks leave the car at home and take a bicycle for transport. I commute to work by bike several times each week / 12 miles each way...FYI.

Why can’t we build more bicycle-friendly infrastructure in the big American cities, and copy what a place like Amsterdam has done?

I lived in Europe for 5 years back in the 80’s and traveled all over. Amsterdam was amazing to me, with bike lanes and bike stop lights all over the city.

Kansas City is building a new bridge over the Missouri River, and they cut the plan for a dedicated bike lane. To me this is a big mistake. The message it sends is ‘leave your bike at home and take the car’.

With obesity as a major driver of escalating health care costs in the USA, one would think spending a little extra money on improving the bike friendly infrastructure would be a priority. Maybe the city managers figured that if they built it, nobody would come..??

I saw the electric car movie a few years ago. I don't recall GM's reasoning for destroying all the leased cars en mass....

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car? A "MUST SEE" FILM

At a national scale, if two normal cars in each household were replaced with 2 tiny EV's, we'd need to triple the national grid capacity.

You left out the daily cycle again. And you presumed that postulate that "we all do it" again. And you went to 2 EV's not 1, for yet more unrealism.

EV's don't make practical sense.

EV's don't make practical sense two to a garage for everyone, that's for sure.

However they could make good sense in more limited use, especially in regions (such as France with its 70% nuclear electric generation) where there is essentially "free" excess nighttime capacity.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car? A "MUST SEE" FILM

I am perhaps being too harsh toward EV's, especially when considered as a niche solution in crowded urban areas. As a compliment to mass- transit, they could really work. In transit circles, researchers talk about the "last-two-mile problem"; getting from the station to your final destination in foul weather with a bundle of groceries. Little EV's run on a shared service like ZIP CAR could be a great solution.

[Chris Coles]

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car? A "MUST SEE" FILM

Chris,

Nice thread. Interesting discussion.

My big interest is to see folks leave the car at home and take a bicycle for transport. I commute to work by bike several times each week / 12 miles each way...FYI.

Why can’t we build more bicycle-friendly infrastructure in the big American cities, and copy what a place like Amsterdam has done?

I lived in Europe for 5 years back in the 80’s and traveled all over. Amsterdam was amazing to me, with bike lanes and bike stop lights all over the city.

Kansas City is building a new bridge over the Missouri River, and they cut the plan for a dedicated bike lane. To me this is a big mistake. The message it sends is ‘leave your bike at home and take the car’.

With obesity as a major driver of escalating health care costs in the USA, one would think spending a little extra money on improving the bike friendly infrastructure would be a priority. Maybe the city managers figured that if they built it, nobody would come..??

I saw the electric car movie a few years ago. I don't recall GM's reasoning for destroying all the leased cars en mass....

Thanks Bob, but I do not see the answer being either EV or bicycle. Yes, you are correct to raise the point about the use of the good old Bike. But that will also, as you point out, require a complete change of attitude right across the board and as you have seen, such changes are not on the horizon.

No, I see the answer in following the work of Minato in Japan.
http://www.rexresearch.com/minato/minato.htm (Just scroll down the page).

Like many inventors, I remain completely convinced that it will ultimately be possible to harness the power of the permanent magnet. Yes, in todays scientific world that statement makes me a CRANK......

Such is life!

[Starving Steve]

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car? A "MUST SEE" FILM

[ATTACH]1359[/ATTACH]

One of the "countless examples" may be finally able to overcome the Corporate Interests:

http://thepoliticalcarnival.blogspot...duce-hemp.html

That's a Federal Government which acts on behalf of Corrupt Corporate Interests to restrain trade and competition in the market place.

May the pot-heads and the dopers who have been pushing electric cars enjoy their electric cars when the price of electricity is driven-up to 14cents per kwh, as it is now in British Columbia.

How poetic that the pot-heads and their windmills, their tidal power, their solar power end-up paying 14c per kwh to power-up their electric cars. Whatever illusionary savings they may find doing that might make sense when they smoke another joint of marijuana.:rolleyes:

[0tr]

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car? A "MUST SEE" FILM

If I remember correctly, the energy inputs to produce solar cells are greater than the life time energy deliverable. Agendas and politics figure into everything.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car? A "MUST SEE" FILM

Thanks Bob, but I do not see the answer being either EV or bicycle. Yes, you are correct to raise the point about the use of the good old Bike. But that will also, as you point out, require a complete change of attitude right across the board and as you have seen, such changes are not on the horizon.

No, I see the answer in following the work of Minato in Japan.
http://www.rexresearch.com/minato/minato.htm (Just scroll down the page).

Like many inventors, I remain completely convinced that it will ultimately be possible to harness the power of the permanent magnet. Yes, in todays scientific world that statement makes me a CRANK......

Such is life!

How are you going to carry 3 or 4 sacks of groceries on a bicycle and ride that bike thru snow and rain? And what happens if you have a flat tire on the way home in winter, especially in the dark?

Biking may be a transportation option if you live next to a shopping centre in a warm and dry climate, but not otherwise.

[GRG55]

Re: Who Killed the Electric Car? A "MUST SEE" FILM

How are you going to carry 3 or 4 sacks of groceries on a bicycle and ride that bike thru snow and rain? And what happens if you have a flat tire on the way home in winter, especially in the dark?

Biking may be a transportation option if you live next to a shopping centre in a warm and dry climate, but not otherwise.

Depends how crazy you are Steve. I know some people in Calgary that bike into downtown year-round. Years ago I learned from one of my employees that a mountain bike can be equipped with studded tires so it can be ridden in the snow. :cool: