Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-up

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

Thank-you, medved, for that moderated defense of America.

[c1ue]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

And on the other side of the coin: I have regular contacts with much of the Russian community (not Jewish Russian) in the Bay Area.

While there are some who are as "America the Great" or perhaps "America the least of all evils" as Medved (50%), on the other hand there is an increasing number (once 5%, now probably 25%) who view the events in the US with alarm. This to the extent of ensuring their children learn Russian because they are preparing to move back.

So I think it is a mistake to assume that all those happy immigrants in the land of the free share the same beliefs in "Manifest Destiny".

Again, consider the alternatives. Supporting Aytollahs against the Shah and Saddam Hussein? Just let them kill each other?

Um, perhaps you are not aware, the Shah was a US puppet. Through and through. As with most propaganda, even a cursory inspection of the past will show that the US has acted in just as manipulative and self serving a fashion as any other aspiring empire in history.

A large part of the Iranian hatred of the US is due to this, plus the uniform US policy against Iran since the 70s hostage crisis.

Saddam in turn was at least a collaborator with the Soviet Union. The nations of Iraq and Iran were to be the West's and the Communist's balance of power in the Middle East. Of course Iran's revolution upset that equation, and so Saudi Arabia became even more of a focus.

The point is that believing American propaganda is no different than believing Soviet propaganda.

[medved]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

And on the other side of the coin: I have regular contacts with much of the Russian community (not Jewish Russian) in the Bay Area.

While there are some who are as "America the Great" or perhaps "America the least of all evils" as Medved (50%), on the other hand there is an increasing number (once 5%, now probably 25%) who view the events in the US with alarm. This to the extent of ensuring their children learn Russian because they are preparing to move back.

So I think it is a mistake to assume that all those happy immigrants in the land of the free share the same beliefs in "Manifest Destiny"..

This is correct, and over time this ratio will normalize from 50/25 to 50/50, the same Right/Left split you will see in any Western democracy.

Um, perhaps you are not aware, the Shah was a US puppet. Through and through. As with most propaganda, even a cursory inspection of the past will show that the US has acted in just as manipulative and self serving a fashion as any other aspiring empire in history.

I am very aware of this, because back in USSR I worked for three years in a design bureau, that designed and built power stations in Iran. We had several engineers in every department going on regular business trips to Esfahan. They told us a lot of things that contradicted either US or Soviet official line. Their description looked more like pre- civil war situation than anything else.

In the cold war era for every Soviet puppet (Mossadeq, Allende) you could find an American one (the shah, Pinochet).

A large part of the Iranian hatred of the US is due to this, plus the uniform US policy against Iran since the 70s hostage crisis.

Saddam in turn was at least a collaborator with the Soviet Union. The nations of Iraq and Iran were to be the West's and the Communist's balance of power in the Middle East. Of course Iran's revolution upset that equation, and so Saudi Arabia became even more of a focus.

Iranians are by no means united in their hatred of the US, and have never been, even during “Isalmic revolution”. The more time they spend under control of ayatollahs, the more they will appreciate the US and the Carter doctrine.

The point is that believing American propaganda is no different than believing Soviet propaganda.

This is correct, to a degree. Here is the difference.

America has the established tradition of political discourse. The propaganda here is facing counterpropaganda. It has to be more subtle and thruth-like, than the Soviet one. Soviet propaganda was just as inefficient as Soviet agriculture. Even the propagandists themselves did not believe it. This type of propaganda needs to be supported by tanks in the street or a threat of the tanks. In America you don’t have to believe whatever propaganda you hear, you always have alternatives. America is the country of personal choice, be it car model or political platform. There is no such tradition in Russia, and creating it (if ever) will take quite some time.

The “no difference” argument implies, people are complete dummies and cannot make their choices. This is a traditional socialist idea that quickly leads to the principle “Freedom is slavery”.

[c1ue]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

America has the established tradition of political discourse. The propaganda here is facing counterpropaganda.

Medved,

I agree the Soviet propaganda was much less subtle and believable than American propaganda. But on the other hand, do you prefer your propaganda obvious and pervasive or insidious and pervasive?

I prefer no propaganda.

The entire iTulip concept of the bullhorn and the kazoo is something I wholly agree on.

The statement there is that politicial discourse in the United States is just as biased against revelations of truth as the Soviet model; only in America it is drowned out via monolithic news sources and production quality vs. legal fiat.

At least in the Soviet Union there was no pretense. For that matter, the neighbor of my wife's family - an ethnic Georgian - continually and vocally disses both Putin and Shakashvili. His hero? George W. Bush.

[medved]

Re: Hudson - Economic Meltdown: The "Dollar Glut" is What Finances America's Global Military Build-u

Medved,

I agree the Soviet propaganda was much less subtle and believable than American propaganda. But on the other hand, do you prefer your propaganda obvious and pervasive or insidious and pervasive? .

I prefer the latter. It means the propagandists are trying to brainwash me, but are not strong enough to control me in real life (e.g. decide where I can live or what I can read). The rest is my own responsibility. Separation of powers and political diversity do work.

I prefer no propaganda.

So do I, but in real life this does not happen.

The statement there is that politicial discourse in the United States is just as biased against revelations of truth as the Soviet model;

We have to agree to disagree on this one too. .