United States of Amnesia

[don]

6 Years in, Troops Glimpse Real Path Out of Iraq

As he returned to base here after a day patrolling a place once called the Triangle of Death, Capt. Landgrove T. Smith of the First Battalion, 63rd Armor, summarized the war in Iraq in a way that would once have been unthinkable.

“We’re in the endgame now,” he said.

President Obama’s plan to withdraw American forces called for the end of combat operations by August 2010, but here in Mahmudiya, as in many parts of Iraq, the war is effectively over already, the contours of an exit strategy having taken clearer shape than at any time before.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/07/wo...ef=todayspaper

The US plan in invading Iraq was always to install a quasi-puppet government in Baghdad and build remote, elaborate bases out in the desert that would be held forever. The only fly in the ointment was more Iraqi resistance than expected. But my point is not in discussing the Iraqi Adventure but rather the 2-party dog and pony show that frames the argument before a shot is fired.

We have now entered the Withdrawal Zone. That's what Obama's are for, along with the Wall Street/Bankster smoke screen. As usual, and as discussed quite well here on iTulip, it's a dis-connected world of propaganda and ignored, thundering herds of elephants in America's parlor. Most events spring into existence without a past. 100-car freight trains are run into the Memory Hole on practically a regular schedule.

When FIRE controls the media that most people are exposed to, this time-honored technique is nearly fail safe. The GM 'debate' is another prime example.

Many iTulip participants favor a return to a production/consumption model, a real economy. That would place a premium on the production fixed capital and machine tool skill labor in Detroit. Is that in any way within the frame of pronouncements from anybody involved in those decisions?

Not to my ears ;)

[Mega]

Re: United States of Amnesia

I think America was beat, they did a sercet deal with Iran, thus they wrecked Is-reals plan to attack Iran.

Af-gan?................Hope-less
Mike

[c1ue]

Re: United States of Amnesia

Hopefully the withdrawal is because Iraq truly is stable, as opposed to "Vietnamization" or the Nixon doctrine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_Doctrine

In Nixon's own words (Address to the Nation on the War in Vietnam November 3, 1969):^[1]

• First, the United States will keep all of its treaty commitments.
• Second, we shall provide a shield if a nuclear power threatens the freedom of a nation allied with us or of a nation whose survival we consider vital to our security.
• Third, in cases involving other types of aggression, we shall furnish military and economic assistance when requested in accordance with our treaty commitments. But we shall look to the nation directly threatened to assume the primary responsibility of providing the manpower for its defense.

Doctrine In Practice

Both Nixonians and Contrarians argue that this doctrine may have masked other needs, intentions and motives: 1) Nixon was president when a resolution of the Vietnam War was essentially mandatory due to growing public opinion in favor of withdrawal,^[4] [A Gallup poll in May shows that 56% of the public believed that sending troops to Vietnam was a mistake, 61% of those over 50 expressed that belief compared to 49% of those between the ages of 21-29] even if tacit abandonment of the SEATO Treaty was ultimately required, and which resulted in complete communist takeover of South Vietnam despite previous US guarantees;^[5]; 2) US retreat from unconditional defense guarantees as to lesser allies in general was driven as much by financial needs^[6] as by re-examination of strategic and foreign policy objectives (Nixon's goals of detente and nuclear arms control with the Soviet Union, and establishment of formal diplomatic relations with Communist China; 3) as a consequence, direct sales of weaponry^[7] to nations no longer under the nuclear umbrella of previous US security guarantees dramatically increased as US guarantees were withdrawn.

Hmm, Nixon -> withdrew from Vietnam, broke US out of Bretton Woods.

Obama -> withdraws from Iraq, breaks US out of world economy?

[Uno]

Re: United States of Amnesia

Look at your own country if you are talking hopeless, freedom is dead in the UK. The UK way of life is in danger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5Ygx...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S55o2hNIXzk

GW Bush (yes he is an idiot) was 100% correct about the threat from radical muslims to civilized western society.

Yes, the invasion of Iraq was a huge, neo-liberal bone head mistake that wasted post 9-11 political capital to stand up against the real threat that is radical islam.

Instead, GW Bush turned the world against "radical Christians in America" and gave a huge push to "radical muslims" to pratically take over the UK.

How many Americans realize that the UK has implemented Islamic Law in the UK along side UK law!!! And you are worried about the UK financial collapse????

Yes, this evil has also jumped into Jewish and Christian communities creating radicals within these cultures as well in opposition to radical muslims. Parts of Isreal is getting very radical as they are very close to the threat on a daily basis.

However, the root of the problem is radical muslims and until so called "moderate" muslims stand up against these radicals and prove that they stand for western civilization and freedoms then they should not be treated as some kind of "victims" by overly politically correct westerners.

To all you UK and Europeans posting: yes the financial collapse sucks but it is in no way the collapse of the USA. We will be just fine, we will rebuild, we still have freedoms, we still have guns.

You should be more worried about what is going on in your own countries, my grandparents saved you from Hitler and I do not feel like sending my kids over there to save you pussy Brits from 8th century radical muslims.

[medved]

Re: United States of Amnesia

Look at your own country if you are talking hopeless, freedom is dead in the UK. The UK way of life is in danger.

GW Bush (yes he is an idiot) was 100% correct about the threat from radical muslims to civilized western society.

Yes, the invasion of Iraq was a huge, neo-liberal bone head mistake that wasted post 9-11 political capital to stand up against the real threat that is radical islam.

I would say, that invasion of Iraq was not caused 100% by reaction to 9-11. There is an old principle of the US policy called “the Carter doctrine” that underlies all US actions there, and both parties support it. So, I never took Obama’s promises seriously. He is not going to leave Iraq.

Instead, GW Bush turned the world against "radical Christians in America" and gave a huge push to "radical muslims" to pratically take over the UK. How many Americans realize that the UK has implemented Islamic Law in the UK along side UK law!!! And you are worried about the UK financial collapse?

This is UK’s own problem. It needs to find some guts to resist radical Islam and wisdom to do it without turning into an intolerant racist society. The same problem is facing all the western countries today.

Yes, this evil has also jumped into Jewish and Christian communities creating radicals within these cultures as well in opposition to radical muslims. Parts of Israel is getting very radical as they are very close to the threat on a daily basis

I think, you overestimate this problem. For all the talk and whining about “Christian fundamentalism” I have never seen anything, that can be perceived as a threat here, in the US (and I am an agnostic). People here talk all the time about “separation of Church and State”, but most of them forget, this principle was introduced to protect Church from State, not the other way around.

However, the root of the problem is radical muslims and until so called "moderate" muslims stand up against these radicals and prove that they stand for western civilization and freedoms then they should not be treated as some kind of "victims" by overly politically correct westerners.

Spot on. Nobody else can solve this problem.

To all you UK and Europeans posting: yes the financial collapse sucks but it is in no way the collapse of the USA. We will be just fine, we will rebuild, we still have freedoms, we still have guns.

You should be more worried about what is going on in your countries, my grandparents saved you from Hitler and I do not feel like sending my kids over there to save you pussy Brits from 8th century radical muslims.

Don’t forget about Russia. They will use any weakness in the Western unity and resolve.

[Uno]

Re: United States of Amnesia

The problem is that Christian radicals in America help VALIDATE Muslim radicals by having similar absurd beliefs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1b0QKO1rJQ

Bush's support of Christian radicals added fuel and validatity to muslim radicals.

If we believe in armagedon, hell fires, miracles, and angeles flying around in the clouds then it makes it more difficult to stand up against people that believe in Islam.

Richard Dawkins, an athiest, is brillant at pulling the covers off radical Islam but in doing so he also shows how ignorant evangelical bible pounders are in the USA.

I do agree with him that Christians are completely benign in comparison to Islam but still believe that evangelical radical beliefs have added fuel to this rise of human ignorance around the earth against the civilized world.

[Uno]

Re: United States of Amnesia

Winston Churchill on Islam - exactly why radical christians (intelligent design crowd) are also part of the problem and fueling the fires of human ignorance.

"were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome'

Full text here:


How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.

The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.
No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.

[medved]

Re: United States of Amnesia

The problem is that Christian radicals in America help VALIDATE Muslim radicals by having similar absurd beliefs.

Bush's support of Christian radicals added fuel and validatity to muslim radicals.

If we believe in armagedon, hell fires, miracles, and angeles flying around in the clouds then it makes it more difficult to stand up against people that believe in Islam. .

Absolutely not. American political system allows us to live together with people, that believe in all kinds of nonsense, be it Christianity or Atheism. This sytem was created as a result of cooperation between agnostics, deists, protestants, catholics, etc. The majority of people, that sustained it for 200+ years were Protestants. Trust me, they believed (and still do) in all kinds of nonsense. Yet, it did not prevent them from supporting and defending the most free society in the world. You need to spend a few years in an atheistic society to appreciate it. A lot of people in Russia just had it. Over there religion is coming back, believe it or not. The difference is, Russian Orthodox Church is a centralized organization, that traditionally supports some central gov’t (it used to be monarchy before, now it’s Putin and Co).

I do agree with him that Christians are completely benign in comparison to Islam but still believe that evangelical radical beliefs have added fuel to this rise of human ignorance around the earth against the civilized world.

There is nothing radical about evangelical beliefs. They are moronic, but not radical. Compare it to commi atheistic beliefs. Which of them brought more misery upon the civilized world? Most people will always believe some kind of religion anyway. I rather they believe in Protestant Christianity, than in Atheism or Islam.

[flintlock]

Re: United States of Amnesia

Hopefully the withdrawal is because Iraq truly is stable, as opposed to "Vietnamization" or the Nixon doctrine:

Vietnam appeared fairly stable too when we pulled out most ground forces. Iraq will fold up like a cheap tent once we pull out. The various factions are just biding their time, not wanting to slow down the pullout process. Then they'll go at each others throats all over again. I expect complete anarchy in Iraq for a long time. Al Qaeda will NOT be one of the major players.

[BigLandbaron]

Re: United States of Amnesia

Vietnam appeared fairly stable too when we pulled out most ground forces.

WHAT ?!

The Viet Cong were shelling the crap out of South Vietnamese capitol of Saigon when the US pulled out! Chaos, unrest, and panic broke out as hysterical South Vietnamese officials and civilians scrambled to leave Saigon.

[K Carlson]

Re: United States of Amnesia

Your grandparents must have mis-informed you. It was the British, who stood alone and saved the world. My grandparents also fought in WWII and repeatedly spoke with admiration about the British heroism of its soldiers and citizens. Your ranting is not only wrong; it is boorish and rude.

[don]

Re: United States of Amnesia

The ARVN was toast. The US military wasn't doing too good either.

The army in Vietnam was "dispirited where not near mutinous."
from The Collapse of the Armed Forces, the Armed Forces Journal, June, 1971. Author Colonel Robert Heinl.

"During the years of 1969 down to 1973, we have the rise of fragging - that is, shooting or hand-grenading your NCO or your officer who orders you out into the field," says historian Terry Anderson of Texas A & M University. "The US Army itself does not know exactly how many...officers were murdered. But they know at least 600 were murdered, and then they have another 1400 that died mysteriously. Consequently by early 1970, the army [was] at war not with the enemy but with itself."

It was a complicated "withdrawal".

[flintlock]

Re: United States of Amnesia

WHAT ?!

The Viet Cong were shelling the crap out of South Vietnamese capitol of Saigon when the US pulled out! Chaos, unrest, and panic broke out as hysterical South Vietnamese officials and civilians scrambled to leave Saigon.

Geez! The US didn't pullout the day before Saigon fell!:rolleyes: Sure we had some diplomats and other personnel there. But the withdraw had started long before that! Pretty much no US troops there by that time. The ARVN had been fighting pretty much on its own for years, albeit with US air support and advisors.

March 29, 1973 - The last remaining American troops withdraw from Vietnam as President Nixon declares "the day we have all worked and prayed for has finally come."

I'm talking about the major pullout of US combat troops by 73. We mostly had just air support units left by 1975, if that. By 72 the ARVN was conducting most combat operations. The situation in Iraq now is similar to Vietnam in 70 or so, not the final NVA offensive in 75. The US ground combat role was drastically reduced for years before SVN fell. Things weren't exactly rosy, but they were considered still in control at the time the majority of US troops left. A peace treaty of some sort had even been signed. And the ARVN was a LOT more combat effective than the Iraqi Army today. Not even a comparison. The ARVN slaughtered the NVA 72 offensive( mostly due to US airpower). It took the NVA years to recover to the point they could finish the job in 75. I'm always amazed at how many people think South Vietnam fell the week we pulled out. North Vietnam needed the support of outside superpowers to pull off their victory. Iraq is so much weaker in comparison, they won't need much outside help.



My point was our government was saying Vietnam was stable when we pulled out, just like they say Iraq is now. They said the ARVN could take over. Iraq falls into civil war the minute after we pull out major ground units. As a matter of fact, they'll be using those weapons and training we gave them to butcher each other. You can't prop up a government and make it fight. It doesn't work.

[Guest]

Re: United States of Amnesia

Uno - Appreciate some of your other comments but Carlson is absolutely correct on the facts. While Europe was disintegrating under Hitler's onslaught, it was the British who offered the only persisting hope of a credible resistance, while for a long time the Americans dithered and insisted on their neutrality. The war could not have been won without thbe US entry into it, but the original obstinacy to remain resolute in the face of Hitler's expansion was British, not American. And it's also entirely possible that the British remain today every bit as bloody minded when cornered as they were then.

Great discussion here with lots of interesting contributed comments. The extreme cynicism about a viable Iraqi government after the US pullout completes seems quite plausible to me. Notwithstanding many other fine qualities he potentially brings to the White House for the next four years, this one accomplishment (summary US pullout with chaotic consequences) may be, or make that "likely will be" the historic millstone that remains draped around Obama's neck in the historical record as the aftermath will likely be a resurgence of drastic further bloodshed.

Iraq will most likely indeed be in some ways remniniscent of a Vietnam redux after a summary US pullout, with an eventual Shia dominance. What Saddam held together with obscene brutality for 30 odd years won't hold together, due to the irreconcilable Shia / Sunni schism and the Iranian / Gulf States schism pulling them in opposite directions. I for one don't imagine that the murky factions (both Shia and Sunni, whohave been devouring their own nation during this warfare) who have until now been labeled "freedom fighters" or "resistance" forces by some idealists will be revealed to be any better than were the Taliban, should they become resurgent after the US departure.

Your grandparents must have mis-informed you. It was the British, who stood alone and saved the world. My grandparents also fought in WWII and repeatedly spoke with admiration about the British heroism of its soldiers and citizens. Your ranting is not only wrong; it is boorish and rude.

[The Bouncer]

Re: United States of Amnesia

The problem is that Christian radicals in America help VALIDATE Muslim radicals by having similar absurd beliefs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1b0QKO1rJQ

Bush's support of Christian radicals added fuel and validatity to muslim radicals.

If we believe in armagedon, hell fires, miracles, and angeles flying around in the clouds then it makes it more difficult to stand up against people that believe in Islam.

Richard Dawkins, an athiest, is brillant at pulling the covers off radical Islam but in doing so he also shows how ignorant evangelical bible pounders are in the USA.

I do agree with him that Christians are completely benign in comparison to Islam but still believe that evangelical radical beliefs have added fuel to this rise of human ignorance around the earth against the civilized world.

We do not disrespect the religions of others here. One and only warning.