Beware when the angry mob is middle class

[Jay]

Re: Beware when the angry mob is middle class

I once lived in a chicken coup.

I lived in my car and my tent for a year but that was out of choice.

[pwcmba]

Re: Beware when the angry mob is middle class

As shown in these clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ-IP...eature=related

[ASH]

Re: Beware when the angry mob is middle class

Ditto in Oklahoma City last weekend. A year or two ago, there would be a gun show every two-three months, you could get in for $6 and wander around at leisure.

Before the November election, the gun shows started popping up maybe once a month, and a little more crowded, and $8 to get in.

Right after the election through year end, two shows a month, $10 entry fee and a lot more people.

January/February 2009: A gun show every week, $12 to get in, and mobs of people competing to buy guns, and in size, ammunition.

OK and other states still have a "gun show" exemption by which "private sellers" not otherwise engaged in gun sales as a business/profession, can legally sell guns to any other private buyer - no paperwork, no instant background check, no ID, cash only.

I think lots of people are catching on to this as a way of insuring they have at least one firearm that's "off the books" so to say.

Recession? What recession? Guns and ammo are through the roof in OK and elsewhere.

Care to speculate what fraction of the demand for guns and ammo relates to the economic crisis, and what fraction relates to the change in administration? The NRA has been beating the "Obama will take your guns!" drum quite a bit, and sales of potentially banned weapons like assault rifles seem to go up when folks are concerned about the potential for new gun control laws. I assume we're seeing some of both.

[FRED]

Re: Beware when the angry mob is middle class

Ditto in Oklahoma City last weekend. A year or two ago, there would be a gun show every two-three months, you could get in for $6 and wander around at leisure.

Before the November election, the gun shows started popping up maybe once a month, and a little more crowded, and $8 to get in.

Right after the election through year end, two shows a month, $10 entry fee and a lot more people.

January/February 2009: A gun show every week, $12 to get in, and mobs of people competing to buy guns, and in size, ammunition.

OK and other states still have a "gun show" exemption by which "private sellers" not otherwise engaged in gun sales as a business/profession, can legally sell guns to any other private buyer - no paperwork, no instant background check, no ID, cash only.

I think lots of people are catching on to this as a way of insuring they have at least one firearm that's "off the books" so to say.

Recession? What recession? Guns and ammo are through the roof in OK and elsewhere.

Gun bubble?

[don]

Re: Beware when the angry mob is middle class

Beware when the angry mob is middle class I found a curious title for this thread. Middleclass has always had a special, if not out of time and space, meaning in America. "Most Americans are middleclass" is a hominy that says essentially nothing, a Cold War invention that torpedoed any analysis of American society in any meaningful way, paving the way, I suppose, for things like "The Generation Gap" and "The Women's Movement" (not to mention the ad nauseum "Boomer Generation")

Historically, mass movements against corrupt governments and elites have been intellectually led by the sons and daughters of the professions and small proprietors. The rank and file have been working class people and small farmers. Trailer trash, or lumpen, are if anything the thugs of proto-fascist groups.

In another Great Depression in America I don't forsee unemployed neighbors crawling through my kitchen window for food. I certainly do not put much credence in gun ownership to stand up to the police powers of the State. It's a comforting fantasy but that's about the extent of it in real life (and a quick death. Think Waco).

[fightthepower]

Re: Beware when the angry mob is middle class

Beware when the angry mob is middle class I found a curious title for this thread. Middleclass has always had a special, if not out of time and space, meaning in America. "Most Americans are middleclass" is a hominy that says essentially nothing, a Cold War invention that torpedoed any analysis of American society in any meaningful way, paving the way, I suppose, for things like "The Generation Gap" and "The Women's Movement" (not to mention the ad nauseum "Boomer Generation")

Historically, mass movements against corrupt governments and elites have been intellectually led by the sons and daughters of the professions and small proprietors. The rank and file have been working class people and small farmers. Trailer trash, or lumpen, are if anything the thugs of proto-fascist groups.

In another Great Depression in America I don't forsee unemployed neighbors crawling through my kitchen window for food. I certainly do not put much credence in gun ownership to stand up to the police powers of the State. It's a comforting fantasy but that's about the extent of it in real life (and a quick death. Think Waco).

Think Iraq, Think Afghanistan, Think Revolutionary War, Think 100 million Americans unwilling to live under Tyranny. That was the point of the second Amendment.

[pwcmba]

Re: Beware when the angry mob is middle class

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/67fba682-0...077b07658.html

I like the quote that with the protest under 5,000 the risk is not so bad.

[pwcmba]

Re: Beware when the angry mob is middle class

[url]http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/67fba682-075a-11de-9294-000077b07658.html

[don]

Re: Beware when the angry mob is middle class

Think Iraq, Think Afghanistan, Think Revolutionary War, Think 100 million Americans unwilling to live under Tyranny. That was the point of the second Amendment.

Iraq and Afghanistan are fighting invaders and occupiers. In a sense so was the Revolutionary War. It took three years, and millions of dead, for the Russian people to revolt in 1917. It don't come easy.

[ASH]

Re: Beware when the angry mob is middle class

Think Iraq, Think Afghanistan, Think Revolutionary War, Think 100 million Americans unwilling to live under Tyranny. That was the point of the second Amendment.

In my opinion, it absolutely will not come to that:

Don't buy into the paranoia about domestic use of Blackwater or other mercenary forces.

Small unrest (a couple of guys in a remote compound) are dealt with by the FBI or ATF.

Protests are managed by local law enforcement; protests which turn violent are dealt with by local law enforcement, backed by the national guard.

On rare occasion, major protests (thousands of protestors, such as the Bonus Army of 1932) are dispersed by troops. Out of 43,000 marchers, the dead and injured included, according to Wikipedia:

Two veterans killed.
Two infants asphyxiated with adamsite gas.
An 11-week-old baby suffered shock from the gassing.
An 11-year-old boy, David Barscheski, was partially blinded by the gassing.
A civilian bystander was shot in the shoulder.
Veteran Christopher Bilger's ear was severed by a cavalryman.
A veteran was bayonetted in the hip.
Twelve policemen were injured by the veterans.
More than 1,000 men, women, and children were gassed with adamsite gas, including policemen, news reporters, civil residents of Washington D.C., and ambulance drivers.

Contrast this to what happens when people riot in real totalitarian countries.

Widespread and popular anger would not, in my opinion, be met with force. Members of the armed forces are not -- I repeat for the n'th time on iTulip -- the robotic jack-booted thugs some of you imagine. There are two structural reasons why the American military cannot be used effectively against widespread and popular dissent. First, and foremost, the military is not a route to riches. In some societies, a job in the government -- and the security forces in particular -- is the only means of getting ahead, and the way one gets ahead is through graft and corruption. The principle draw for joining the military in such countries is the opportunity to victimize one's fellow citizens (and not be a victim oneself) -- that is most certainly not the case in the US. The second reason is that the members of the American armed forces are drawn from -- and sympathetic to -- the people. They are not from a single dominant ethnic or social class, and they are not the instruments of such a class's dominance.

If hard times persist, and the government becomes the only game in town, then eventually our civil service and military might become overtly corrupt. However, that is a cultural change which would happen over time. The way I see it, people are going to get angry and start protesting long before then. Thus, if we're talking about the government's response to widespread protest now, it makes sense to talk about the securities services now.

[don]

Re: Beware when the angry mob is middle class

In my opinion, it absolutely will not come to that:

Use of a National Minority is SOP in these internal matters, ergo the Czar and his Cossacks. History is chock full of this. The US, probably due to its heterogeneous population, is an exception

[flintlock]

Re: Beware when the angry mob is middle class

Use of a National Minority is SOP in these internal matters, ergo the Czar and his Cossacks. History is chock full of this. The US, probably due to its heterogeneous population, is an exception

I think the new class of "government workers" will become the minority class you speak of. People who's jobs and very existence is dependent on their government leaders. A huge segment of the populace is now working either directly or indirectly for government. This segment will become the loyal core of followers that give government the ability to rule. "Vote for us or you'll lose your cushy govt job and benefits". Government has become so large that they basically can elect themselves to a degree. What govt worker would vote for a smaller govt if it means losing his job? Its no coincidence that govt is about the only sector still growing in this economy. Divide and conquer.

I also find police I know to be well meaning but extremely brainwashed in terms of understanding the real picture of what is going on. Any dissent will be labeled "terrorist" by the leadership, and who isn't against terrorists? Ever notice how police refer to others as "civilians"? Its coming.

[don]

Re: Beware when the angry mob is middle class

I think the new class of "government workers" will become the minority class you speak of. People who's jobs and very existence is dependent on their government leaders. A huge segment of the populace is now working either directly or indirectly for government. This segment will become the loyal core of followers that give government the ability to rule. "Vote for us or you'll lose your cushy govt job and benefits". Government has become so large that they basically can elect themselves to a degree. What govt worker would vote for a smaller govt if it means losing his job? Its no coincidence that govt is about the only sector still growing in this economy. Divide and conquer.

I also find police I know to be well meaning but extremely brainwashed in terms of understanding the real picture of what is going on. Any dissent will be labeled "terrorist" by the leadership, and who isn't against terrorists? Ever notice how police refer to others as "civilians"? Its coming.

The at-times outrageous job securities of government workers is intentional. It did not come through organized labor struggles. A mildly corrupt civil service was decided upon at its creation. Who wants the kitchen help revolting when you're busy looting the Nation's pantry ;)
(and having been a civil servant for a few years- fed apprenticeship at a shipyard- I could never see these people taking to the streets to put down civil unrest. That's a bad Robin Williams movie :p )

[sn1p3r]

Re: Beware when the angry mob is middle class

I think it would be wise to distinguish the types of guns...it's not like people are beating down the doors to buy antiques or even hunting rifles and shotguns...this is a specific bubble that is directly related to the political and economic atmosphere. From what i've read you actually have police depts trying to beef up and at the same time citizens buying the same types of weapons and ammo...sounds to me like an arms race (but that's admittedly being a little paranoid)...i guess there is a reason that the gun stores i've been in have pictures of Obama behind the register as employee of the month