Found a clone of $#* out there in pundit-land. Or maybe Vince Bressler's clone is over here.

[Guest]

Re: Found a clone of $#* out there in pundit-land. Or maybe Vince Bressler's clone is over here.

Digidiver - If there were a "plan" from central banks, perhaps led by US / UK banks, it would be likely riskier for us because this would imply that vested interests really can steer this thing and what they want is not necessarily the best thing for us. They may win it, but it would be largely by chance in our present chaotic environment. IMO a great many actors would like to steer it, but no one is capable of steering it. It is playing itself out on a scale so vast that every last central bank on earth is just being dragged along for the ride.

No one knows if we go over the cliff or not - and that's the point. As no human on earth could claim such vast wizardry, all ideas that this is an "orchestrated" event are ascribing extraordinary powers to these "dark agents". But I'm in that group here who by nature have rarely if ever met a conspiracy theory they did not discard. When I read it's got elements of conspiracy I turn the page. There are others who are drawn to conspiracies like magnets here. If you come across threads regarding "master plans" of any sort you will find us all neatly drawn up into polar opposites.

For instance take two really smart iTulipers. C1ue on the one hand and Rajiv on the other hand. Rajiv is one of the most widely read people on these pages, with what sometimes appears an almost intimidatingly encyclopaedic knowledge. C1ue is another "knowledge-bot" who chops up issues into analytic pieces with sometimes intimidating precison. But Rajiv embraces the idea that the world is full of mysterious conniving and cover-ups, and C1ue tends to shy away from them at every instance. They are like to metal filings with opposite magnetic polarity.

I am convinced it has a lot to do with brain chemistry and also with one's formative years. I personally can't get convinced that there are any groups of people out there with sufficient god-like powers or intelligence to carry out ultra-secret plots, particularly water-tight monetary ones based on Ponzi debt on a global scale.

IMO, real unfolding events regularly sabotage the best laid plans. Random events likely derail the vast majority of "master-plans", and the bigger the plan the more easily derailed. So according to this view, there are probably only a really minute number of conspiracies that don't either quickly leak out or quickly get bogged down in the quicksand of real life - real life means endless entropy - like molasses. People make grand plans and then do face-plants, all the time. Look at any of hundreds of examples: Donald Trump, Richard Nixon, T. Boone Pickens, that brilliant Texas oilman who just lost a couple of billion dollars in long oil bets this past fall.

Or better yet look at all the "fiendishly clever" Wall Street banks that have summarily blown up. How astute and conniving would we really rate these banksters if they've managed to blow all their fingers and toes off when their toy finance scam blew up in their faces? I conclude it would be very difficult for these "GODS" to project a nefarious, inflexible aim upon the world and not have the world bend it hopelessly beyond all recognition.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Found a clone of $#* out there in pundit-land. Or maybe Vince Bressler's clone is over here.

Conspiracy theories often have an element of truth, even though they are usually bogus as you describe, Lukester.

Just as polytheists find spirits animating the many elements of their world which they cannot otherwise explain, and as monotheists, despite the more purist teachings of their best thinkers, tend to imagine their God as a super person, similarly those of us who walk the paranoid side of the street tend to imbue the semi-cohesive, self-serving behavior of the King makers and most powerful with conspiratorial spirits.

The overt conspiracy is usually not there; on that I'd agree with you. But the group think, pack animal behavior of the worlds most powerful (which is likely not the worlds public leaders or best known) is a powerful driving force behind events. That public leaders and their top lieutenants are so often portrayed as bumbling fools does not contradict this.

So I suggest you look past the superficial silliness of conspiracy theories and ask what truth lies beneath their surface.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Found a clone of $#* out there in pundit-land. Or maybe Vince Bressler's clone is over here.

P.S. - Just because the Most Powerful have herding tendencies does not, of course, mean that they can't make a royal botch of things. However they have means at their disposal which the rest of us lack to turn even world depressions and wars at least partially to their favor.

[Rajiv]

Re: Found a clone of $#* out there in pundit-land. Or maybe Vince Bressler's clone is over here.

But Rajiv embraces the idea that the world is full of mysterious conniving and cover-ups

IMO, real unfolding events regularly sabotage the best laid plans. Random events likely derail the vast majority of "master-plans", and the bigger the plan the more easily derailed. So according to this view, there are probably only a really minute number of conspiracies that don't either quickly leak out or quickly get bogged down in the quicksand of real life

I don't think I would disagree with you overall -- however, I do think that you are misinterpreting Ockham's Razor - I think you could do with a little bit of reading of the linked article

Ockham’s Razor, otherwise called the principle of the economy of thought, is invoked often in debate, usually to discount one or more theories on the basis that another exists which is simpler or more parsimonious. In this essay we shall consider this principle, its domain of application and some associated philosophical concerns, using examples from the history of science to illustrate some of the points at issue.
.
.
.
.
.
The basic error inherent in the counting approach is to consider theories in isolation. A theory includes a host of ancillary presuppositions and exists within a metaphysical system. A comparison with an alternative implicitly or otherwise assumes that all other things are equal (called a ceteris paribus clause in Latin) when they are not (or, at the very least, no attempt is made to show that this requirement is satisfied).
.
.
.
There are several lessons to take from this historical episode. In the first place, we have two competing theories with the same content, and thus a prime candidate for the application of Ockham’s razor. Upon consideration, however, we immediately note that the ceteris paribus clause was not satisfied, and for many reasons. The theological consequences were (ostensibly) very different;

I also think you need to read the following - Silent Repression: The CIA's Covert Operations and assure me that none of these well documented events occurred -- or that they were well known and documented by the media when they were occurring, or soon after they occurred -- and that these conspiracies (and I would in fact call them that! were leaking like a sieve as you would have us believe as the implication of your statements above)

[Guest]

Re: Found a clone of $#* out there in pundit-land. Or maybe Vince Bressler's clone is over here.

Very well put Mr. PythonicCow.

Digidiver, just so you understand, I would agree that it is quite possible to see trends in motion that have been carried out collectively by a group, say financial engineers, all acting quite coherently according to a set of very clear and urgent interests which manifest as "herd intelligence" - in this case bankers packaging Ponzi debt which got us into this horrific mess. Talking about whether they ever were actively colluding in that case, would be a crude and unsubtle approach to understanding what happened, because collective "herd" intelligence can act just as concertedly to further a narrow set of interests, as a supposed conspiracy could.

At some point enough of that "herding" by bankster's packaging Ponzi debt and then trying to foist it off on the rest of the world crosses a grey line where one does not know what distinguishes strong herding behavior from concerted action.

Your only comment was concerning US government attitudes towards the EURO as a USD challenge, and it is entirely plausible that the surging Euro and moves by multiple nations to discuss pricing in Euros rather than USD, has absolutely caused some sharp twinges at the Treasury Dept. over the past few years. So the distinctions I was making, which were more addressed to $#* wider thesis, are perhaps not meeting the subtlety required all around on what constitutes collusion, and what is "merely" herding. Be sure to let yourself be heard. If you think others are not making sense, then speak up.

Conspiracy theories often have an element of truth, even though they are usually bogus as you describe, Lukester.

Just as polytheists find spirits animating the many elements of their world which they cannot otherwise explain, and as monotheists, despite the more purist teachings of their best thinkers, tend to imagine their God as a super person, similarly those of us who walk the paranoid side of the street tend to imbue the semi-cohesive, self-serving behavior of the King makers and most powerful with conspiratorial spirits.

The overt conspiracy is usually not there; on that I'd agree with you. But the group think, pack animal behavior of the worlds most powerful (which is likely not the worlds public leaders or best known) is a powerful driving force behind events. That public leaders and their top lieutenants are so often portrayed as bumbling fools does not contradict this.

So I suggest you look past the superficial silliness of conspiracy theories and ask what truth lies beneath their surface.

Rajiv - believe it or not, it's 12.30 at night on a Sunday, and I am at my office studying for a certification exam. I'm a little flagged out, feeling tired and a bit discouraged with my upcoming week, and I must surrender the point to you, particularly when you cite the CIA! I did not mean to disparage your viewpoint, but apparently I did in a backhanded way. Perhaps all I can say in my defense is that the thesis that certain kinds of people are drawn naturally to one or the other world views is likely true. My father for instance, was paranoid. I spent the last ten years of our lives shared in a constant state of grating nerves at the occasional irrationalities which this led to.

However your objections above, based on pointing out the covert activities on the part of all governments are absolutely true and indeed quite obvious, so I have to retract my whole argument. I made a dumb argument which I cannot defend - and you've barely had to lift a finger to point out why. But I still think $#*'s thesis is out there in the Milky Way somewhere in terms of realism for today's US predicament. Any megalomaniac government intent on taking over the world on a pyramid of unsustainable debt is 100% certifiably demented. And I credit these guys with a lot of things, but not dementia.

[Rajiv]

Re: Found a clone of $#* out there in pundit-land. Or maybe Vince Bressler's clone is over here.

Lukester,

A Ponzi scheme if I am to believe some (Hudson) has been going on for perhaps 600 years, only moderated because of the convertablity of money to PMs for most of that time period - today, I do think that monetary collapse becomes imminent, because of the necessity of exponentially expanding the money supply in the absence of any converability to a concrete asset at a fixed rate.

This I believe can be laid at the foot of Human Greed, and its obvious short sightedness - as can be visualized clearly in the psychology and political economics of bubbles - so eloquently put forward by EJ

[jtabeb]

Re: Found a clone of $#* out there in pundit-land. Or maybe Vince Bressler's clone is over here.

Yup Lukester, things are becoming obvious for more and more people. We were talking about the M1 multiplier a few weeks back. Do you remember that part with the money that doesn't exist being created by the Fed, lent to banks and deposited back by those banks as reserves with the Fed ? The FFR being basically the same with the interest paid on deposits, all this money exploding on the Fed balance sheet is an illusion for now (or actually it is more like the Shroedinger's Cat)

Read this one and have fun:
http://jengafinance.blogspot.com/200...e-of-lies.html

And some quotes from that blogger taken from another forum:

Oh, and by the way, in the quotes from Vincent Bressler, you posted here there is a small detail missing. The dollar is a debt system. The Federal Reserve Notes are actually fractions/shares of US government/treasury debt. If, by some miracle, the US government pays all its debts to the Fed then there will be no dollars.

Therefore, if you want to create a huge amount of dollars (to push it down the throats of ROW) you would have to create a huge ......US debt ;)

It is THAT simple!

So, how does this all pan out, in concrete terms, for the dollar, equities, and gold? I think you do a very good job of explaining the processes at work, but what outcome will be the result of those processes?

Thanks!

[Supercilious]

Re: Found a clone of $#* out there in pundit-land. Or maybe Vince Bressler's clone is over here.

Lukester, sometimes in your posts you make incorrect or unfounded assumptions. For example:

$#* you are a very smart, economically literate (and witty) guy,

You have no way of knowing that, and in most of my posts I use absolutely plain language. FWIK may be an economically illiterate person just talking nonsense.

but I note you don't yet have many people converted to this thesis.

Here you make another is incorrect assumption. Why do you believe I want to get converts to my thesis? I don't mind when people don't agree with me, or don't think my ideas are correct, as long as they don't use BS arguments for their rebuttals. I'm more interested to find others to confirm or dispel some of my theories with solid arguments and logic.

Plus, trying to convert others to my theories would be wrong, because nobody (me included) has the monopoly on absolute truth. Recently I found on internet a great unattributed quote. It goes like this:

I maintain that the only true salvation from any oppression or enslavement is self-empowerment. Knowledge. Consciousness.

This is true rebellion!
Don't get caught up in the 87% of people that follow the leader. People who think that they are rebels because they denounce authority simply because its the latest fashion.

Don't march the streets claiming that you are the enlightened one because you read a book or saw a film that gave you a glimpse into an uncommon knowledge.

Don't scream phrases into a megaphone that you borrowed from another persons research. And don't proclaim yourself an original thinker because you belong to a group that represents an unpopular belief.

Those are all examples of the other side of the coin of "group think" : leading a false rebellion. False rebellion is dangerous because it gives an illusion that you are free and thinking for yourself.

A TRUE rebellion, a true revolution begins when you quit following... and start leading. And those that end up following you, should be taught by you to quit following you and start leading. And the only way to lead successfully is by fully understanding your rights as a human being on this planet.

I believe most people don't understand that we have a right to be free, we don't have to accept serfdom in disguise and we don't have to put up with the crap the Fed shoves on us. The Federal Reserve Bank was created in order to prevent future financial crises (after the 1907 engineered panic). The record clearly shows they've failed miserably and many argue they were the root cause of all crises that benefited only a few.

Why should we keep it, if it doesn't work, and why should we give it authority and monopoly enforced by the government if it serves only a few unelected individuals? Most of my posts are only for those who do realize they have rights and who don't accept to be herded as sheeple to the fleecing pens.

There are others (unfortunately they are the majority) who are absolutely content to get a haircut, and don't bother to see where exactly where we are all going, because they are too busy watching they favourite show on TV in the company of a six pack. Plus, why should they bother, because the shepherds told us they are firmly in control and nothing really bad will happen to the flock they manage with competence. Of course, a few sheeple will end up in the slaughter house, most will lose all comfy and thick layer of wool and they will shiver for a while, milking will be more painful and frequent, but the green pasture (plus the fences and the shepherds) will be there tomorrow and most of us will be there safe.

I think it gives far to much credit for wily intelligence to the US government, for one thing - in fact assigning anything remotely like "wily intelligence" to this government's recent history should more likely cause us to laugh with bitter mirth at their bungling than to take their efforts seriously.

You are putting words in my mouth. Where did you get that? :eek: When did I say the government is smart competent and working for the people !!!???:eek:

First, the Fed is not part of the US Government. It is a hybrid monopoly: privately owned and enforced by the government. It is not part of US government, not has anything to do with free markets (since the government enforces an unequal playing field).

I contend only that they are working exclusively for preserving and accumulating more wealth and power for their own interests. They do that not by being financial Einsteins, but by scheming, lying and deceiving us, using the same simple tricks over and over again. That is not a sign of great intelligence on their part.

[Guest]

Re: Found a clone of $#* out there in pundit-land. Or maybe Vince Bressler's clone is over here.

... too busy watching they favourite show on TV in the company of a six pack. ...

You know, I never thought of a six-pack that way! I am going to have to give it another careful look. Who knows, maybe it really was company? The misanthropists perfect companion. :confused:

[gwynedd1]

Re: Found a clone of $#* out there in pundit-land. Or maybe Vince Bressler's clone is over here.

How did it come to the point where conspiracies are thought of as theories? From OPEC to De beers to Microsoft document format to liqueur distributions I see nothing but conspiracies to drive up the price . What is more overt than OPEC? Now banks are somehow immune to this?

People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices. It is impossible indeed to prevent such meetings, by any law which either could be executed, or would be consistent with liberty and justice. But though the law cannot hinder people of the same trade from sometimes assembling together, it ought to do nothing to facilitate such assemblies, much less to render them necessary.

-Adam Smith

I submit the father of modern economics is a conspiracy theorist. He is telling you anytime a trade or cartel meets behind closed doors they are conspiring against the public. I was right there when the Java 1.0 IDE created applets that only ran on IE and not Netscape. That was a conspiracy. In the case of OPEC, De beers etc. they have some cover since people do ascribe to them (sometimes foolishly) some right over it like to say "I guess it is their oil". Bankers on the other hand use fiat currency and the idea that they are an abusive monopoly is much more delicate since it is hard to see what benefit they actually provide let alone create a wealth sucking monopoly with it. So they hide behind press cheerleaders and complexity. Now we see in this case the monopoly power of the dollar. Of course there is a desire to use it.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Found a clone of $#* out there in pundit-land. Or maybe Vince Bressler's clone is over here.

How did it come to the point where conspiracies are thought of as theories?

Well, duh ... some conspiracies are such in fact, some in speculation, and some doubtful or highly dubious. Good grief, you write as if conjectures of conspiracy were all of the same degree of certitude.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Found a clone of $#* out there in pundit-land. Or maybe Vince Bressler's clone is over here.

Well, duh ... some conspiracies are such in fact, some in speculation, and some doubtful or highly dubious. Good grief, you write as if conjectures of conspiracy were all of the same degree of certitude.

In the case of dollar manipulation it is with a great deal of certitude. It seems the source of disbelief is that of its scale. The nature of fiat currencies is such that their scarcity or plentifulness is the result of the manufacturer alone. A shortage of sand or sea water is infinitely more likely to run short and much more difficult to haul away. Even if it is by rules, it is by rules arbitrarily created. Not only am I biased for it by such theorems presented by respected economists but I see it with my own eyes.