Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

[Chris Coles]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Freedom to practice religion(or not) and the freedom to enjoy hunting and shooting(or not) in New Zealand helps make this such a fantastic country.

It is also one of the best countries for the sport of gliding as the mountains run crosswise to the wind and make it a great place for wave flying. For the record, I have never flown in NZ, but have many friends that do so regularly and was in part taught by a NZ. Enjoy!

http://www.gliding.co.nz/GNZ

http://www.glideomarama.com/

http://www.soaring.co.nz/

http://www.soaring.co.nz/Southern_Soaring_Gallery4.html

[Guest]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

You couldn't get me to jump out of a plane over those mountains, even if I had a gun pointed at my head. No sir. I'd chain myself to the jump rail and refuse to budge an inch. I like SOLID GROUND under my feet. A little farm would be nice though. Now, what are all the well mannered and upscale New Zealander's going to think about an invasion of us mangy Americans, down on our luck, and scrounging around for bargains? :rolleyes:

It is also one of the best countries for the sport of gliding as the mountains run crosswise to the wind and make it a great place for wave flying. For the record, I have never flown in NZ, but have many friends that do so regularly and was in part taught by a NZ. Enjoy!

http://www.gliding.co.nz/GNZ

http://www.glideomarama.com/

http://www.soaring.co.nz/

http://www.soaring.co.nz/Southern_Soaring_Gallery4.html

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

It is also one of the best countries for the sport of gliding as the mountains run crosswise to the wind and make it a great place for wave flying. For the record, I have never flown in NZ, but have many friends that do so regularly and was in part taught by a NZ. Enjoy!

http://www.gliding.co.nz/GNZ

http://www.glideomarama.com/

http://www.soaring.co.nz/

http://www.soaring.co.nz/Southern_Soaring_Gallery4.html

Yup Tekapo/Omarama/Twizel area is quite nice.......VERY scenic on the ground as well! It's quite common to see gliders around Omarama...I think Steve Fossett was down here trying to break some gliding records before he crashed in the US.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Now, what are all the well mannered and upscale New Zealander's going to think about an invasion of us mangy Americans, down on our luck, and scrounging around for bargains? :rolleyes:

Immigrants to NZ would be appreciated by most, in my opinion.

You would need a place to rent/buy....helping to prop up declining RE markets

There are heaps of Americans here.....lots from the UK as well. Folks from the UK are often viewed as "whingey" hence the term "whingeing Pom". While true in some cases, it's a poor stereotype.

Most Americans I've met during my 8+ years in NZ are good folks.....the only ones I choose to avoid are those that come across as modern day versions of Jane Fonda......those who are almost militantly opposed to all things American.

I believe NZ is VERY receptive to those keen to join Team New Zealand and make the effort to assimilate.......it really is a great "Team"...warts and all

[santafe2]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Then you will know that I am working on creating a structure of the necessary rules for such an organisation with my multi-part thread; The Road Ahead from a Grass Roots Viewpoint. http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7480

Chris, I read the first two episodes of your 'Road Ahead', but it's not striking a chord with me. It may be because I don't see impediments to small business job creation in the structure of the US economy. It's really quite easy to start a new business here. Business profits should likely be taxed differently in the US to allow an easier buildup of working capital, but that issue seems tangential to your point. I've been involved in several start-ups but the most successful have had a few of the same characteristics:

• The partners are all strong in their area of expertise and all the critical areas of knowledge are covered
• Everyone can put the overall success of the business above their own success
• Everyone has a passion for success and hates failure. Fear of failure is BS. I think my dog fears failure. You have to hate it or it will sneak up on you
• The partners are grown-ups and friends. All meetings of value are contentious but contention ends at the conference room door
• One person is the visionary leader and can clearly explain the vision to all the partners in the way they need to understand it
• There is one CEO and that person has two jobs, making final decisions and worrying about the horizon
• The company is self funded. Every partner would rather eat Ramen noodles for a year than give up control of their dream

You appear to have a more top-down view of control and responsibility. It's not something I really understand. I tend to see business building / job creation as a thing you push up from the bottom.

Although they don't meet some of my first world requirements above, I'll give you an idea of how I see responsible, bootstrap entrepreneurship by linking you to some of the people that really inspire me. I've been financing these micro-entrepreneurs for years. Most of them have nothing but their idea of a better life and their dreams. I know it happens, but I've never had someone not repay a loan.

http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses

[Sharky]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Now, what are all the well mannered and upscale New Zealander's going to think about an invasion of us mangy Americans, down on our luck, and scrounging around for bargains?

As a relatively recent immigrant, the reaction I've seen from locals has been nothing but super-friendly and helpful. Like most things involving people, it depends on the individuals involved -- but my experience has been great.

[Chris Coles]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Everyone has a passion for success and hates failure. Fear of failure is BS. I think my dog fears failure. You have to hate it or it will sneak up on you

Santafe, thank you for responding, but you are definitely on a different track to me. First of all, you are taking my reference to failure out of context. What I am trying to highlight is that the fear of failure is on the opposite side of the table to the entrepreneur; that it is the overall attitude of the source of funding for job creation that holds such fears.

"We cannot do that because we might lose our money" is very firmly embedded. What I am trying to get across is that the money is never lost, it simply drops into general circulation within the community that has received the investment. And, that it is the slow elimination of such investment that has created what one now sees very clearly in every city on the planet, a subclass peoples living in a subclass environment.

Yes, I do understand micro loans into indigenous populations, but my view there is that you are encouraging single artisans, rather than true business start ups. yes, again , that is simply an aspect of scale and viewpoint.

What I am trying to get at is an overall structure to thinking that will take us back to the beginning of free enterprise and find a road forward that works for the whole society over the long term. The underlying thinking for the structures needed, such as savings institutions and banks.

What we have today is a failed system. What I am doing is setting out how I see the road forward. It is certain that my viewpoint is entirely coloured by my experience, as yours is by your own. Indeed, I am only about half way through the exercise and have been doing a bit of thinking about the next stage. Bear me out, you might get a better idea of where I am coming from if you wait until I have finished.

But to one thing I am absolutely committed, it is the investment of equity capital, not lending, that forms the foundation stone of capitalism, and to my mind, if we return to capitalism, we will succeed where the present system has clearly failed.

[labasta]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Thanks Sharky for that informative reply. I knew an iTuliper would put me straight. If the banks are bankrupt (which we've suspected for some months now), then what can they do? Issue a new currency perhaps. Bypass the banks altogether. Create new national banks keeping the old system alive.


I've heard from several people who visited NZ, that the people there were very very friendly. I've heard only good things in that regard.

[metalman]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Chris, I read the first two episodes of your 'Road Ahead', but it's not striking a chord with me. It may be because I don't see impediments to small business job creation in the structure of the US economy. It's really quite easy to start a new business here. Business profits should likely be taxed differently in the US to allow an easier buildup of working capital, but that issue seems tangential to your point. I've been involved in several start-ups but the most successful have had a few of the same characteristics:

• The partners are all strong in their area of expertise and all the critical areas of knowledge are covered
• Everyone can put the overall success of the business above their own success
• Everyone has a passion for success and hates failure. Fear of failure is BS. I think my dog fears failure. You have to hate it or it will sneak up on you
• The partners are grown-ups and friends. All meetings of value are contentious but contention ends at the conference room door
• One person is the visionary leader and can clearly explain the vision to all the partners in the way they need to understand it
• There is one CEO and that person has two jobs, making final decisions and worrying about the horizon
• The company is self funded. Every partner would rather eat Ramen noodles for a year than give up control of their dream

You appear to have a more top-down view of control and responsibility. It's not something I really understand. I tend to see business building / job creation as a thing you push up from the bottom.

Although they don't meet some of my first world requirements above, I'll give you an idea of how I see responsible, bootstrap entrepreneurship by linking you to some of the people that really inspire me. I've been financing these micro-entrepreneurs for years. Most of them have nothing but their idea of a better life and their dreams. I know it happens, but I've never had someone not repay a loan.

http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses

compare...

http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses

to...

http://www.prosper.com/lend/

kiva is about funding modest (very!) businesses. prosper is about helping people pay down credit card debts.

the default rate on kiva is minimal. at prosper now approaching 23%.

what does this say about the usa?

[santafe2]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Santafe, thank you for responding, but you are definitely on a different track to me. First of all, you are taking my reference to failure out of context. What I am trying to highlight is that the fear of failure is on the opposite side of the table to the entrepreneur; that it is the overall attitude of the source of funding for job creation that holds such fears.

"We cannot do that because we might lose our money" is very firmly embedded. What I am trying to get across is that the money is never lost, it simply drops into general circulation within the community that has received the investment. And, that it is the slow elimination of such investment that has created what one now sees very clearly in every city on the planet, a subclass peoples living in a subclass environment.

Yes, I do understand micro loans into indigenous populations, but my view there is that you are encouraging single artisans, rather than true business start ups. yes, again , that is simply an aspect of scale and viewpoint.

What I am trying to get at is an overall structure to thinking that will take us back to the beginning of free enterprise and find a road forward that works for the whole society over the long term. The underlying thinking for the structures needed, such as savings institutions and banks.

What we have today is a failed system. What I am doing is setting out how I see the road forward. It is certain that my viewpoint is entirely coloured by my experience, as yours is by your own. Indeed, I am only about half way through the exercise and have been doing a bit of thinking about the next stage. Bear me out, you might get a better idea of where I am coming from if you wait until I have finished.

But to one thing I am absolutely committed, it is the investment of equity capital, not lending, that forms the foundation stone of capitalism, and to my mind, if we return to capitalism, we will succeed where the present system has clearly failed.

Chris, we are coming at this entrepreneur business from completely different points of view. For me, there is no other side of the table. We test and prove our ideas on a scale we can afford. We carve out a position in our market and challenge our customers and vendors to do the same. If we're wrong, we fail and go away, if we're right, we'll succeed.

Investment capital may be important but it has no correlation to early stage entrepreneurship. In first world countries, investors come in after entrepreneurs have succeeded. Either they are angel round investors pushing toward a new public company or they are M&A investors adding growth.

As for micro investing, I see no difference between my need to grow my company by 100% this year and a micro-finance farmer in Afghanistan attempting to move from one cow to two cows. This is where you and I part ways. Although I can't talk to that guy in a mud hut in Kandahar, I completely get, and support, his business objective.

It's a world community. The system is not failed, it's evolving.

[santafe2]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

the default rate on kiva is minimal....

It is. Everyone on iTulip should be supporting a few of these people. As I've said, their drive inspires and humbles me.

[Chris Coles]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Chris, we are coming at this entrepreneur business from completely different points of view. For me, there is no other side of the table. We test and prove our ideas on a scale we can afford. We carve out a position in our market and challenge our customers and vendors to do the same. If we're wrong, we fail and go away, if we're right, we'll succeed.

Investment capital may be important but it has no correlation to early stage entrepreneurship. In first world countries, investors come in after entrepreneurs have succeeded. Either they are angel round investors pushing toward a new public company or they are M&A investors adding growth.

As for micro investing, I see no difference between my need to grow my company by 100% this year and a micro-finance farmer in Afghanistan attempting to move from one cow to two cows. This is where you and I part ways. Although I can't talk to that guy in a mud hut in Kandahar, I completely get, and support, his business objective.

It's a world community. The system is not failed, it's evolving.

It depends upon which "system" we are talking about. You are clearly into micro-loans. But if you were an inventor in the first world you would already know that within an eighteen month period from first filing you will need to fund the fees for every patent office on the planet, including all the translation costs plus your own patent agents fees, (easily as high as any branch of law), and at one and the same time fund the development of the proof of concept.... all from your household income. A quite impossible task. Period.

While not entirely centred upon patents and inventors, I am addressing the fear of failure of funding that first stage because without adequate funding, the originator has no chance of any success at all. So trying to get beyond that first stage again and again , has opened my eyes to the reality; that everyone assumes that stage can be overcome just by the application of the well known attributes of the entrepreneur. That assumption is entirely false but firmly embedded.

With regard to my views about the next stage you will need to read: Adventure and Essential Freedom - The missing elements of a Rich Cultural Life in a Successful Economy

http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5166

But I am going to assume that you are not going to like my description of the rules for a free market either. Or, for that matter, the clear implication that all present downstream sources of funding the "successful" first stage are not free market based but are clearly feudal.

Chris.

PS: I must continue to write the next part of my multi-part thread and will not respond to this thread until I have caught up. I am sure you will all understand why. But thanks for the comments all the same.

[LargoWinch]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Fearmongering?

[due_indigence]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

"[i]f you don't have a banking system, you don't have an economy."

It is important that we must pay attention and decipher the doublespeak my fellow iTulipers! What Rep. Kanjorski meant to say was: “Without a banking system, there is no way to fleece the masses!”

Bingo. There is a persistent, intentional misprision that the mainstream media is not going to helpfully disentangle for us. On the contrary they work actively to promote the equivalency of saving of Morgan Stanley with the saving of civilization itself. Fear-mongering plain and simple. Capitalism is not dependent upon the Western banking model. But they want the people to believe just that.

[ggirod]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

The economy is going down

from Ron Paul in the video, the smiley is to indicate his inflection in the statement.

I find it extremely disturbing that any elected representative should find the economy going down to be cause for satisfaction. Is it possible that he wants it to go down? Does Ron Paul want people to suffer even more than they have? Does he even care? Is he getting satisfaction from the failure of the nation to solve the problem? Is that the kind of attitude we want to encourage in our governing body? Could it be that an attitude like that is part of the problem and definitely not part of the solution? Inquiring minds want to know!