Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

[santafe2]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

My understanding is that the chairmanship of the Federal Reserve isn't technically a cabinet position that can be changed immediately when a new administration takes office. I believe Bernanke's 4 years are up in 2010.

Fed Chairman is appointed to a four year term by the President. He still has another year+.

[Guest]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

How's this for outlandish (or make that an iTuliper's nightmare rather). Bernanke's gargantuan inflating will "recover the economy", make the stock market rise, he'll be lionized for "saving us" and he'll even win a second term? :eek: :rolleyes: Wanna bet this is what happens? Watch for any turnaround after April-May-June. If no turnaround then Ben's gone down the crapper. If there's a turnaround, he'll be in clover and romp into a second term.

Fed Chairman is appointed to a four year term by the President. He still has another year+.

[santafe2]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

That's the WHOLE DAMN PROBLEM, these assholes are incentivized to NOT FIX THE PROBLEM even though as the two of you point out, a workable solution that would actually SOLVE the problem IS available for use.

That is how fucked up we are right now. SICK!! DISGUSTING!!! Makes me want to VOMIT!!!!

But there you have it. No solution because there is too much money to be made BY NOT SOLVING THE PROBLEM.

SERIOUSLY FUCKED UP!

Is the problem not fixed by paying off your personal debt? Encouraging your neighbors to pay down, then pay off their debt? Building communities where your bankers are invested in the community instead of instruments of exogenous debt? If we structure our lives like this, there is little the Fed, the Treasury, the Debt or taxes can do to change our lives.

[Chris Coles]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Is the problem not fixed by paying off your personal debt? Encouraging your neighbors to pay down, then pay off their debt? Building communities where your bankers are invested in the community instead of instruments of exogenous debt? If we structure our lives like this, there is little the Fed, the Treasury, the Debt or taxes can do to change our lives.

Absolutely right on the button.

The one thing many seem to have forgotten. (Though as I start to write this next sentence I wonder if I am going to cast a hostage to fortune). We do have the right to remove ourselves from the present banking system. There is no possible law in sight that would be able to prevent the removal of all savings from the existing banking system and our setting up our own, new system based exactly as above. To quote Santafe2:

"Building communities where your bankers are invested in the community instead of instruments of exogenous debt?"

Instead of being carried along the river of misfortune of the present banking system, why not simply totally ignore their system entirely and make a new start, today, on building a much better system from the ground up?

Competition is the life blood of true capitalism. Let us compete.

[jtabeb]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Absolutely right on the button.

The one thing many seem to have forgotten. (Though as I start to write this next sentence I wonder if I am going to cast a hostage to fortune). We do have the right to remove ourselves from the present banking system. There is no possible law in sight that would be able to prevent the removal of all savings from the existing banking system and our setting up our own, new system based exactly as above. To quote Santafe2:

"Building communities where your bankers are invested in the community instead of instruments of exogenous debt?"

Instead of being carried along the river of misfortune of the present banking system, why not simply totally ignore their system entirely and make a new start, today, on building a much better system from the ground up?

Competition is the life blood of true capitalism. Let us compete.

Agree, but that is MY POINT. They are INCENTIVEZED TO NOT ALLOW OTHERS TOO COMPETE.

How do you overcome the ingrained special interests that fund the political campaigns? I'm not sure but I'm guessing the public may actually listen to REASON AND LOGIC in the 2012 elections. That's why I think there may be a chance then, so I will try.

[Rajiv]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

No it really it does not!

From the US Treasury website

I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?
The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."
This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.

^ TOP

---

What are Federal Reserve notes and how are they different from United States notes?
Federal Reserve notes are legal tender currency notes. The twelve Federal Reserve Banks issue them into circulation pursuant to the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. A commercial bank belonging to the Federal Reserve System can obtain Federal Reserve notes from the Federal Reserve Bank in its district whenever it wishes. It must pay for them in full, dollar for dollar, by drawing down its account with its district Federal Reserve Bank.
Federal Reserve Banks obtain the notes from our Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP). It pays the BEP for the cost of producing the notes, which then become liabilities of the Federal Reserve Banks, and obligations of the United States Government.
Congress has specified that a Federal Reserve Bank must hold collateral equal in value to the Federal Reserve notes that the Bank receives. This collateral is chiefly gold certificates and United States securities. This provides backing for the note issue. The idea was that if the Congress dissolved the Federal Reserve System, the United States would take over the notes (liabilities). This would meet the requirements of Section 411, but the government would also take over the assets, which would be of equal value. Federal Reserve notes represent a first lien on all the assets of the Federal Reserve Banks, and on the collateral specifically held against them.
Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything This has been the case since 1933. The notes have no value for themselves, but for what they will buy. In another sense, because they are legal tender, Federal Reserve notes are "backed" by all the goods and services in the economy.

So the net is that as long as you are not engaging in barter, or using other "alternative currency" you (the society) is becoming endebted to the bankers -- whether you have personal debt or not! The government is becoming endebted -- and therefore so are you, as that money is going to come from your sweat and labor in the form of taxation

[Chris Coles]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Agree, but that is MY POINT. They are INCENTIVEZED TO NOT ALLOW OTHERS TOO COMPETE.

How do you overcome the ingrained special interests that fund the political campaigns? I'm not sure but I'm guessing the public may actually listen to REASON AND LOGIC in the 2012 elections. That's why I think there may be a chance then, so I will try.

Jtabeb, the answer is very simple, you do not need anyone's permission to remove your savings from any form of banking institution; you only need incentive.

Indeed, this is exactly the same situation as when the first government troops built forts in the wilderness, but the settlers walked right past them, took the risks and built a nation.

Everyone always talks about negative leadership filling a vacuum, why not for once fill the vacuum with positive thinking?

[gwynedd1]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Is the problem not fixed by paying off your personal debt? Encouraging your neighbors to pay down, then pay off their debt? Building communities where your bankers are invested in the community instead of instruments of exogenous debt? If we structure our lives like this, there is little the Fed, the Treasury, the Debt or taxes can do to change our lives.

Hi santafe2,

Well no. Since we have monetized debt paying down debt to solvency is like a snake swallowing its tail. Debt might be a bad thing but when you monetize it, it becomes indispensable. As you pay it down more and more money disappears until there is no money left to pay the debt. Collectively speaking the debt owed is the same but merely expressed in different nominal amounts of the given money supply. For a given money supply when one goes out of debt it simply represents a shift in proportion to someone else who must take on more debt to replace what the other just retired. All people cannot ever get out of debt at the same time. Its a mathematical impossibility.
If we monetized trash there are still some really great arguments to haul it away but if you do, the economy tanks. It might stink attract animals, cause disease, and take up space but please do not haul away the trash if we decide it is our money supply like we do with debt.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Absolutely right on the button.

The one thing many seem to have forgotten. (Though as I start to write this next sentence I wonder if I am going to cast a hostage to fortune). We do have the right to remove ourselves from the present banking system. There is no possible law in sight that would be able to prevent the removal of all savings from the existing banking system and our setting up our own, new system based exactly as above. To quote Santafe2:

"Building communities where your bankers are invested in the community instead of instruments of exogenous debt?"

Instead of being carried along the river of misfortune of the present banking system, why not simply totally ignore their system entirely and make a new start, today, on building a much better system from the ground up?

Competition is the life blood of true capitalism. Let us compete.

Hi Chris Coles,


To do this you need to create a local currency. Can't use the legal tender since its disappearing. Unfortunately the Feds may come knocking to enforce legal tender laws. They put the nix on the barter site on the web just the same.


That is exactly what happened in Guernsey. That had labor and materials but no money to facilitate trade.

http://www.michaeljournal.org/guernsey.htm


Once the banks got wind they shut that down naturally.


Again when money is a debt instrument(like our dollar) for example as in a 10 person society on an island it would best be run by mutual IOUs and NEVER pay them off. If jack the lumber man had 10 firewood IOUs in circulation and the other 9 men on the island passed this around as money (jack the lumber man debt instruments) , it would be a disaster for Jack the lumber man to pay this off with firewood. The money supply would disappear and trade would degrade to barter. Kiss the island good buy. Maybe a Greek philosopher will make mention of that once great little island.

[Chris Coles]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

[quote=gwynedd1;76016]Hi Chris Coles,


To do this you need to create a local currency.quote]

You have entirely misunderstood my meaning. Perhaps I was not clear. I was not talking about changing the currency, simply making the point that you are all perfectly entitled to withdraw your deposit and place it wherever you wish.

Yes, I am not permitted to take deposits. But there will be ways around that.

[Sharky]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Bank deposits are only one tendril of the banking system hydra. If you really want to withdraw from the system, there's a lot more you can do. For example:

-- Get rid of your credit cards
-- Pay off your loans
-- Keep your liquid assets in gold or silver; sell just what you need when you need it
-- Don't work for the banks or other parts of the FIRE economy, and refuse to sell them anything
-- In addition to pulling your money out of the banks, pull it out of stock brokerage accounts, money market funds, retirement accounts, etc.
-- Educate your kids at home and not in government schools
-- Consider moving to a state that doesn't have a state income tax
-- Barter when you can

[jtabeb]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Jtabeb, the answer is very simple, you do not need anyone's permission to remove your savings from any form of banking institution; you only need incentive.

Indeed, this is exactly the same situation as when the first government troops built forts in the wilderness, but the settlers walked right past them, took the risks and built a nation.

Everyone always talks about negative leadership filling a vacuum, why not for once fill the vacuum with positive thinking?

Trying brother, trying.

[jtabeb]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Bank deposits are only one tendril of the banking system hydra. If you really want to withdraw from the system, there's a lot more you can do. For example:

-- Get rid of your credit cards
-- Pay off your loans
-- Keep your liquid assets in gold or silver; sell just what you need when you need it
-- Don't work for the banks or other parts of the FIRE economy, and refuse to sell them anything
-- In addition to pulling your money out of the banks, pull it out of stock brokerage accounts, money market funds, retirement accounts, etc.
-- Educate your kids at home and not in government schools
-- Consider moving to a state that doesn't have a state income tax
-- Barter when you can

Then "they" tax the shit out of you and take away everything you have worked so hard to achieve. Does not work. We change the system, or WE ALL BURN!

[santafe2]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Absolutely right on the button.

The one thing many seem to have forgotten. (Though as I start to write this next sentence I wonder if I am going to cast a hostage to fortune). We do have the right to remove ourselves from the present banking system. There is no possible law in sight that would be able to prevent the removal of all savings from the existing banking system and our setting up our own, new system based exactly as above. To quote Santafe2:

"Building communities where your bankers are invested in the community instead of instruments of exogenous debt?"

Instead of being carried along the river of misfortune of the present banking system, why not simply totally ignore their system entirely and make a new start, today, on building a much better system from the ground up?

Competition is the life blood of true capitalism. Let us compete.

Chris, this is an idea my business partners and I have been tossing around for the last month or so. We'd like to open a bank focused on community investment. We're much too busy building our current business to entertain this today but, I don't think our ideas are all that unique, community bankers will make a return.

[Chris Coles]

Re: Collapse of the Economy in 24 hours. . .

Chris, this is an idea my business partners and I have been tossing around for the last month or so. We'd like to open a bank focused on community investment. We're much too busy building our current business to entertain this today but, I don't think our ideas are all that unique, community bankers will make a return.

Then you will know that I am working on creating a structure of the necessary rules for such an organisation with my multi-part thread; The Road Ahead from a Grass Roots Viewpoint. http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7480

Indeed, I have not posted onto it for a while to take the time to think through the debate about what I will call the fulcrum, around which everything else rotates. Look out for my next post soon.