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Are we going down the "Road to Serfdom?"

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  • Are we going down the "Road to Serfdom?"

    Keynesian ideas were criticized by Austrian economist and philosopher Friedrich Hayek. Hayek's most famous work The Road to Serfdom, was written in 1944.

    Hayek taught at the London School of Economics from 1931 to 1950. Hayek criticized Keynesian economic policies for what he called their fundamentally collectivist approach, arguing that such theories, no matter their presumptively utilitarian intentions, require centralized planning, which Hayek argued leads to totalitarian abuses.

    Keynes seems to have noted this concern, since, in the foreword to the German version of the 'The General Theory of Employment Interest and Money', he declared that "the theory of aggregated production, which is the point of ['The General Theory of Employment Interest and Money'], nevertheless can be much easier adapted to the conditions of a totalitarian state [eines totalen Staates] than the theory of production and distribution of a given production put forth under conditions of free competition and a large degree of laissez-faire."

    Hayek’s central thesis is that all forms of collectivism lead logically and inevitably to tyranny, and he used the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany as examples of countries which had gone down “the road to serfdom” and reached tyranny. Hayek argued that within a centrally planned economic system, the distribution and allocation of all resources and goods would devolve onto a small group, which would be incapable of processing all the information pertinent to the appropriate distribution of the resources and goods at the central planners’ disposal. Disagreement about the practical implementation of any economic plan combined with the inadequacy of the central planners’ resource management would invariably necessitate coercion in order for anything to be achieved.

    Hayek further argued that the failure of central planning would be perceived by the public as an absence of sufficient power by the state to implement an otherwise good idea. Such a perception would lead the public to vote more power to the state, and would assist the rise to power of a “strong man” perceived to be capable of “getting the job done”.

    After these developments Hayek argued that a country would be ineluctably driven into outright totalitarianism. For Hayek “the road to serfdom” inadvertently set upon by central planning, with its dismantling of the free market system, ends in the destruction of all individual economic and personal freedom.

    Hayek argued that countries such as the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany had already gone down the "road to serfdom", and that various democratic nations are being led down the same road. In The Road to Serfdom he wrote: "The principle that the end justifies the means is in individualist ethics regarded as the denial of all morals. In collectivist ethics it becomes necessarily the supreme rule."

    John Maynard Keynes read The Road to Serfdom and said of it: "In my opinion it is a grand book...Morally and philosophically I find myself in agreement with virtually the whole of it: and not only in agreement with it, but in deeply moved agreement".

    Having said that, Keynes did not think Hayek's philosophy was of practical use; this was explained later in the same letter, through the following comment and prophecy: "What we need therefore, in my opinion, is not a change in our economic programmes, which would only lead in practice to disillusion with the results of your philosophy; but perhaps even the contrary, namely, an enlargement of them.

    "Your greatest danger is the probable practical failure of the application of your philosophy in the United States."

  • #2
    Re: Are we going down the "road to serfdom?",

    Originally posted by bobola View Post
    "Your greatest danger is the probable practical failure of the application of your philosophy in the United States."
    This has long been our position on the application of libertarian utopianism in the US. The road from the last crash to the next boom is filled with political land mines.
    Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime.
    - Aristotle
    Keynesian reflation is a way around the mines but leaves behind new mines of its own.

    What will happen to the millions of members of the America and British middle class that have been thrown in to relative poverty by the collapse of the FIRE Economy? Seventy percent live paycheck to paycheck. Those who has portfolios have seen 50% of their value wiped out. Their home equity, of they had any, was wiped out by the crash of the housing bubble. How will they vote in 2010?

    See also: New Road to Serfdom
    Ed.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Are we going down the "road to serfdom?",

      Originally posted by FRED View Post
      This has long been our position on the application of libertarian utopianism in the US. The road from the last crash to the next boom is filled with political land mines.
      Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime.
      - Aristotle
      Keynesian reflation is a way around the mines but leaves behind new mines of its own.

      What will happen to the millions of members of the America and British middle class that have been thrown in to relative poverty by the collapse of the FIRE Economy? Seventy percent live paycheck to paycheck. Those who has portfolios have seen 50% of their value wiped out. Their home equity, of they had any, was wiped out by the crash of the housing bubble. How will they vote in 2010?

      See also: New Road to Serfdom
      "Libertarian utopianism"??? That is, frankly, oxymoronic.

      What is so refreshing about libertarian economics is that it lets the chips fall where they may. How people react to that is, qualitatively, entirely a different problem-- a problem of politics, psychology, and crowd behavior.

      I frankly prefer the term "Keynesian Utopianism". That makes much more sense, as your typical Keynesian seems to want to solve ALL the problems-- economic, political, and sociological-- with ONE solution: government spending.

      I am here to pronounce Keynesianism DEAD. It was a product of political expediency combined with an excess of energy resources-- i.e., cheap oil-- that basically no longer exists as we knew it.

      Just as Keynesianism has been dead in, say, Argentina, for the last 80 years (if it was ever even alive there), it is DEAD in the USA.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Are we going down the "road to serfdom?",

        "lets the chips fall where they may"

        Therein lies the central naivete of libertarianism. Has there ever been a society that let the chips fall where they may? The elephant in the living room is power, its acquisition and expansion.

        Libertarianism is the deadest duck of all. We're headed towards increased centralized control, be it fascism, socialism or a combination thereof. A nation of free people requires a nation of thinking people. Where's the citizen outrage over TARP? Where are the labor riots over the Big 3 dissolution? There is no broad-based articulated outrage percolating up from the grassroots. The sheeple await their Fuehrer.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Are we going down the "road to serfdom?",

          "What will happen to the millions of members of the America and British middle class that have been thrown in to relative poverty by the collapse of the FIRE Economy? Seventy percent live paycheck to paycheck. Those who has portfolios have seen 50% of their value wiped out. Their home equity, of they had any, was wiped out by the crash of the housing bubble. How will they vote in 2010? "

          Fred..............F*ck them!

          No, These are the arseholes whom drove about in BMW's & Rangerovers & looked down on the "Little" people...........These Scum had NO real wealth, just a Bloody big credit line!

          Back at the end of the 80's i did some repo work ref Cars.........I can't begin to tell you the "SAddness" (JOY) of driving off with some "High flyer" Whom had crashed back to earth car. 944 Turbo was the high point, i used it for a WEEK or so before passing it back............An left hand drive M3 EVO was also one to remember.

          Fred, have VERY liitle saddness for these fools, just dish up the cake to them!!!!!
          Mike

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Are we going down the "road to serfdom?",

            Serfdom has been with us for thirty years, though there were opportunities for some to join the elite as they took over. Everything is already decided by a small elite; they're called banks. They write the laws (my favorite was the Citigroup Bill back in the mid-nineties that finally allowed a bank, an insurance company, and a broker to come under one roof). They set the rates. They determine who can and can't afford a home. They determine. ultimately, what a livable wage is.

            Originally posted by FRED View Post
            What will happen to the millions of members of the America and British middle class that have been thrown in to relative poverty by the collapse of the FIRE Economy? Seventy percent live paycheck to paycheck.
            Let's re-phrase it: what will happen to the millions of members of the America and British middle class that have been thrown in to relative poverty by the rise of the FIRE Economy?

            They are the seventy percent. How many towns have you visited that have a local hardware store? How about a locally-owned department store?

            Happy new year.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Are we going down the "road to serfdom?",

              Originally posted by bpr View Post
              Serfdom has been with us for thirty years, though there were opportunities for some to join the elite as they took over. Everything is already decided by a small elite; they're called banks. They write the laws (my favorite was the Citigroup Bill back in the mid-nineties that finally allowed a bank, an insurance company, and a broker to come under one roof). They set the rates. They determine who can and can't afford a home. They determine. ultimately, what a livable wage is.



              Let's re-phrase it: what will happen to the millions of members of the America and British middle class that have been thrown in to relative poverty by the rise of the FIRE Economy?

              They are the seventy percent. How many towns have you visited that have a local hardware store? How about a locally-owned department store?

              Happy new year.
              Besides some mom and pop spots in NYC and in upstate NYC I can't think of too many.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Are we going down the "road to serfdom?",

                Originally posted by bpr View Post
                Serfdom has been with us for thirty years, though there were opportunities for some to join the elite as they took over. Everything is already decided by a small elite; they're called banks. They write the laws (my favorite was the Citigroup Bill back in the mid-nineties that finally allowed a bank, an insurance company, and a broker to come under one roof). They set the rates. They determine who can and can't afford a home. They determine. ultimately, what a livable wage is.



                Let's re-phrase it: what will happen to the millions of members of the America and British middle class that have been thrown in to relative poverty by the rise of the FIRE Economy?

                They are the seventy percent. How many towns have you visited that have a local hardware store? How about a locally-owned department store?

                Happy new year.
                The sad part is that what is left of the middle class, went all cash in 2008 (or if they have not done so, is about to do so in early in 2009 when reviewing their y-o-y 401k statement) just to get robbed of the little wealth they have left via inflation

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Are we going down the "road to serfdom?",

                  Originally posted by bobola View Post
                  Keynesian ideas were criticized by Austrian economist and philosopher Friedrich Hayek. Hayek's most famous work The Road to Serfdom, was written in 1944.

                  Hayek taught at the London School of Economics from 1931 to 1950. Hayek criticized Keynesian economic policies for what he called their fundamentally collectivist approach, arguing that such theories, no matter their presumptively utilitarian intentions, require centralized planning, which Hayek argued leads to totalitarian abuses.
                  What did Hayek think about multinational corporations? What do the "libertarians" here think about the centralized planning that goes on in, say, Exxon Mobile?

                  Hayek argued that within a centrally planned economic system, the distribution and allocation of all resources and goods would devolve onto a small group, which would be incapable of processing all the information pertinent to the appropriate distribution of the resources and goods at the central planners’ disposal.
                  Doesn't sound at all like what happens in the "free market" with multinationals.

                  After these developments Hayek argued that a country would be ineluctably driven into outright totalitarianism. For Hayek “the road to serfdom” inadvertently set upon by central planning, with its dismantling of the free market system, ends in the destruction of all individual economic and personal freedom.

                  John Maynard Keynes read The Road to Serfdom and said of it: "In my opinion it is a grand book...Morally and philosophically I find myself in agreement with virtually the whole of it: and not only in agreement with it, but in deeply moved agreement".

                  Having said that, Keynes did not think Hayek's philosophy was of practical use; this was explained later in the same letter, through the following comment and prophecy: "What we need therefore, in my opinion, is not a change in our economic programmes, which would only lead in practice to disillusion with the results of your philosophy; but perhaps even the contrary, namely, an enlargement of them.

                  "Your greatest danger is the probable practical failure of the application of your philosophy in the United States."
                  Keynes rightly noted that the "Libertarianism" that Hayek advocates is an unworkable fantasy.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Are we going down the "road to serfdom?",

                    Originally posted by CharlesTMungerFan View Post
                    What did Hayek think about multinational corporations? What do the "libertarians" here think about the centralized planning that goes on in, say, Exxon Mobile?

                    Doesn't sound at all like what happens in the "free market" with multinationals.

                    Keynes rightly noted that the "Libertarianism" that Hayek advocates is an unworkable fantasy.
                    CTMF: I am not sure what you are driving at? You seem to think that the multinational corporations are some sort of stable, static organism, at least insofar as their "internal form of government planning" is concerned.

                    Not so. These companies change faster than societies. And they are remarkably subject to fashion in the form of "flavour of the month" management theories and consultants, and a high degree of herd mentality. If they are not charging off on "in search of excellence", they are trying to become more "entreprenuerial" by breaking up into semi-autonomous "business units". And once they tire of that experiment they immediately reverse course having lept to the conclusion that they can "save a bundle" by re-aligning the whole corporation around collectivist-inspired global "shared services".

                    I don't know if you are familiar with Scott Adam's Dilbert cartoons, but his lampooning of life inside the typical corporation was so accurate, so often, that his daily strip used be circulated around the multinational that I used to work for years ago [a few would hit so close to home they'd be posted, by anonomous subversives, on the coffee station bulletin boards].

                    Here's today's:


                    Last edited by GRG55; January 01, 2009, 05:13 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Are we going down the "road to serfdom?",

                      I'm a little more optimistic. I think the sheeple are rebelling. It's a gradual proces, kind of like the 5 stages of grief.

                      2006 was stage 1, where Republocans lost control of Congress. 2008 is stage 2, the sheeple have REALLY thrown the bums out. Democratic president and increased Democratic majorities in Congress.

                      The public is clearly disillusioned with the free market fundamentalism of the current batch of Republicans, so they've voted in a new crew.

                      Now, they will take a wait and see attitude, to see if the new guys do a better job of addressing their needs.

                      I think the Democrats had better and probably will pay more attention to the needs of John Q. Public.

                      If not, the next stage will be more public displays of dissatisfaction - maybe not Athens, probably more like the civil rights movement, at least initially, with peaceful protests and demonstrations, organized primarily by more left-wing types, but also by some right-wing groups.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Are we going down the "road to serfdom?",

                        Originally posted by CharlesTMungerFan View Post
                        What did Hayek think about multinational corporations? What do the "libertarians" here think about the centralized planning that goes on in, say, Exxon Mobile?
                        Just how much central planning goes on within ExxonMobile, anyway? Do you know?

                        Besides, nearly all of what ExxonMobile does petroleum. The central planning of command economies goes well beyond that of just trying to figure out how to provide and process a single commodity like oil.

                        A better company for comparison would be a company like General Electric. And I bet there's plenty of decentralized decision making within that company.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Are we going down the "road to serfdom?",

                          Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
                          CTMF: I am not sure what you are driving at? You seem to think that the multinational corporations are some sort of stable, static organism, at least insofar as their "internal form of government planning" is concerned.

                          Not so. These companies change faster than societies. And they are remarkably subject to fashion in the form of "flavour of the month" management theories and consultants, and a high degree of herd mentality. If they are not charging off on "in search of excellence", they are trying to become more "entreprenuerial" by breaking up into semi-autonomous "business units". And once they tire of that experiment they immediately reverse course having lept to the conclusion that they can "save a bundle" by re-aligning the whole corporation around collectivist-inspired global "shared services".

                          I don't know if you are familiar with Scott Adam's Dilbert cartoons, but his lampooning of life inside the typical corporation was so accurate, so often, that his daily strip used be circulated around the multinational that I used to work for years ago [a few would hit so close to home they'd be posted, by anonomous subversives, on the coffee station bulletin boards].

                          Here's today's:


                          Having worked for large companies, as well as start-ups, I can relate to all you describe. During the 1980s when things were not going well at a company there was the inevitable "re-reorganization" which basically entailed the creation of new groups and titles, and some changes in management, but no real change in the way the company operated. I used to call this "shaking the bird cage" because the birds (managers) flew around and made much noise, but once they landed again wound up doing what they were doing before because they were the same people, albeit in different positions.

                          The only way to meaningfully change any organization you have to change the people, although process changes can effect a business at the margins.

                          Comment

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