Reboot America

[Munger]

Re: Reboot America

And if that which was gotten in trade was the skills of a surgeon, then I guess a surgeon's hands are really "the people's hands" in your world. After all, they were built from the people's food grown from the people's soil on the people's land.

And what happens if a surgeon takes the people's hands away to the land of the free market?

Why just build a wall to keep them in!

It's been done before, of course.

I do believe in property rights. And the free market for that matter. It should be considered, however, that what you have gotten did not come to you solely by your own merit. Many possess vast quantities acquired through dishonesty or through winning the genetic lottery. Free markets are not perfect; neither are they necessarily efficient.

The idea that taxes and government are slavery vs. the absolute beauty and freedom of unfettered markets and property rights is what I was criticizing.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: Reboot America

Yes, my preference is for anarchy. I used to favor a small government, but I can't figure out a way to do it that wouldn't still attract the bad elements of society, and that would therefore lead to future abuse. The best I've been able to come up with so far is a middle-ground, with insurance-like companies that would take the place of a minimalist government. The idea is that they would be funded voluntarily, and they would compete with one another. Poorly-performing or corrupt companies would be unable to stay in business. Companies that helped their subscribers would thrive.



Somalia is almost as far away from true anarchy as I could imagine; they're closer to being totalitarian -- it's just that we call their rulers "warlords" instead of "congressmen," and they use guns to enforce their rules instead of judges and prisons (whether they hold elections or not is immaterial; just look at Zimbabwe). It's the same problem as with corporate entanglement with government, just on a different scale. Things didn't get bad in Somalia as a result of unbridled free trade; the warlords would never have the kind of power they do if it wasn't for lots and lots of outside "foreign aid."

Pre-1997 Hong Kong is a closer example to what I'm talking about (although they're still a long way off): minimal laws, minimal taxes, minimally-invasive government.



Where you feel safer, I feel the opposite. Laws are used to unjustly imprison thousands for harming no one but themselves. Laws can be passed on a whim that suddenly make previously-legal things illegal and prison-worthy (Patriot Act, etc). In my view, the prison and justice systems don't deter crime; they increase it. The legal profession is out of control, fed by the monster. Fighting an unjust legal case can drain away all of the assets of a middle class family in the blink of an eye.

Why do you like the fact that some people can't do what they want with their properties? Are you saying that a below-code apartment building for the poor would be worse than having them sleep on the street? Plus, code requirements lead to a requirement for licensed builders, which artificially boosts their wages, while suppressing the number of total jobs available. And in the end, who's to say that the codes are really any safer than other ways of doing things? Not to mention the huge amount of fraud that happens in that area -- bribes paid to inspectors to ignore code violations, etc. How do you even know for sure that the building you live in actually meets code?



OK, here's my version (off the top of my head): All government and related institutions as we know them would be abolished over a period of three or four years. All government assets would be sold to the highest bidder, including buildings, roads, parks, land, water and mineral rights, etc (nukes and similar dangerous tech would have to be handled as a special case). The resulting fund would be used on a pro-rated basis to pay off existing holders of US debt and to provide a one-time stipend to government pensioners and people who have paid into social security. The country's gold reserves would be distributed in exchange for dollars remaining in circulation, and would become the new currency. Everyone in prison for a non-violent crime would be pardoned and released. All taxes of any kind would be gone. I would then resign as king, stand back, and let the real free market work.

I like that some "force" (government) is out there that will keep people from not cutting their grass, that will keep them from filling their front lawns with cars that don't run, that keep them from having multiple dogs, hogs, cows, chickens in their backyards, or letting all these critters run wild. There would be no need to have laws to make these things happen, and I am rather sure there weren't always such laws, if people's shortcomings did not interfere with the quality of life of those around them. I would hate to continually be at odds with neighbors were they to choose to do things in their way of living that interfered with my way of living; thus rules for the society evolve, and to me societal rules and regulations have some definite usefulness.

Well, if the below-code apartment-building burns down and kills whoever is in it through no fault of theirs, then I think those killed would have been better off not living in the below-code-apartment building even if it meant living homeless, the assumption being that staying alive has some value.

You write like someone who has never been ripped off by hiring a workman that your buddy knows and got you to use him, but who isn't licensed to plumb, wire a service box, install a gas water heater, etc. Licensure of probably all types I imagine arose because there were too many people without the necessary knowledge to do things well enough to justify the costs and insure the safety of what they were being paid to deliver. That would apply to doctors, lawyers, accountants, nurses, teachers, truck drivers, plumbers, electricians, and I suppose many other trades. If all service providers knew enough to do things well and and actually did things well without taking advantage of customers who don't know everything about everything, no licensure procedures would have evolved. Unfortunately there is something in many humans that makes them want to make as much money as possible by doing the least possible to justify their getting paid.

I think there are people smart enough in the building industry, and professions and trades to know enough to derive some standards that are acceptable. When you get into the bribery and fraud aspects, you get into "bad" human behavior and for that we have fines and prisons and loss of licensure sometimes, without government there would be no possible retribution unless you happen to believe in Hell.

I happen to have had the opportunity to learn about building codes for homes in my city, and I do know about how safe my house is. But that is just for the last 14 years. Prior to that I didn't know jack-shit about codes and was a sitting duck for anyone who might have ripped me off.

[flintlock]

Re: Reboot America

Well there is absolutely nothing forbidding the PRIVATE formation of guilds to ensure quality workmanship. You are free to buy or not buy products UL listed for instance. It's NOT a government entity. The idea that only the government can set acceptable standards is absurd. As a licensed Electrical contractor, I can tell you that people knowingly choose non licensed hacks every day. Why, because they want to save money. Its not like people can't ask for proof of being licensed. So the old " I got ripped off" line doesn't cut it. I'm not saying I'm against building codes, just that having the government sign off on them is about as minimum a standard as you could find in some cases.

And enforcing laws on the books concerning corruption and fraud has almost nothing to do with the SIZE of government. More about the will to do the right thing. I'm no anarchist, but when it gets to the point that you need a license to shampoo hair, you're probably looking at a bloated government.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: Reboot America

Well there is absolutely nothing forbidding the PRIVATE formation of guilds to ensure quality workmanship. You are free to buy or not buy products UL listed for instance. It's NOT a government entity. The idea that only the government can set acceptable standards is absurd. As a licensed Electrical contractor, I can tell you that people knowingly choose non licensed hacks every day. Why, because they want to save money. Its not like people can't ask for proof of being licensed. So the old " I got ripped off" line doesn't cut it. I'm not saying I'm against building codes, just that having the government sign off on them is about as minimum a standard as you could find in some cases.

And enforcing laws on the books concerning corruption and fraud has almost nothing to do with the SIZE of government. More about the will to do the right thing. I'm no anarchist, but when it gets to the point that you need a license to shampoo hair, you're probably looking at a bloated government.

Then the "government sign off" on some project that must comply with building codes, if it is inadequate to assure some standard of quality is a failure of government, though I don't think you implied that, or did you?

It seems to me the greater the population, the more buildings and remodeling there are to take place, so if there is some entity to attempt to assure quality of some degree and to prevent people from being sold substandard workmanship, then it necessitates bigger government in the sense it takes more people to do more inspections, or more people to patrol more traffic for wreckless or drunk drivers, etc.

None of this code enforcement or highway traffic enforcement , etc. would be necessary if one smaller group of people did not infringe upon the welfare of another larger group. To me it is very simple: more people, more crooks, more victims, greater need for some authority to control the crooks. I'm not an advocate for more governemnt, but I absolutely am an advocate for the best government that can exist, and I almost will guarantee you that a civil society cannot exist without government.

Your example of a hair washer needing a license may be true, but I doubt it if the person only washes hair, please correct me if I am wrong. Someone should assure that a barber does something to prevent the transmission of bacterial or viral disease when using intruments that can cut skin. I had a barber cut off a piece of my ear when he was talking about hair styling and all it offered vs. having been paying attention to where he was whacking with his scissors. If all barbers were knowledgeable about HIV and all of them knew how to prevent its transmission in the performace of their trade, then I doubt if licensure or some type of oversight for barbers developed. I don't know now if barbers have oversight (last haircut in 1993), but I suppose they do.

This is rhetorical: If you, flintlock, are bidding on a project and you need work, in order to get your bid low, is it done by cutting down the quality of your work and keeping profits as high as possible, or is the quality going to be as good as you would provide for any price, and your low bid if accepted would result in your having less profit?

I've thought a lot about the situation: does a high fee for services assure the highest possible result? You know people are always saying "you get what you pay for," a statement that to me is meaningless.

My conclusion is that you cannot pay someone to do quality work if such work lies beyond their abilities or their personal need to only do quality work, thus paying the highest bidder does not assure the highest quality for what is being purchased.

[Munger]

Re: Reboot America

Well there is absolutely nothing forbidding the PRIVATE formation of guilds to ensure quality workmanship. You are free to buy or not buy products UL listed for instance. It's NOT a government entity. The idea that only the government can set acceptable standards is absurd. As a licensed Electrical contractor, I can tell you that people knowingly choose non licensed hacks every day. Why, because they want to save money. Its not like people can't ask for proof of being licensed. So the old " I got ripped off" line doesn't cut it. I'm not saying I'm against building codes, just that having the government sign off on them is about as minimum a standard as you could find in some cases.

Which private wine review magazines provide legitimate wine critiques and which private wine review magazines are shams set up to fool consumers? Whenever it is possible and profitable to mislead consumers it will be done.

Free markets are not necessarily efficient because information asymmetry is pervasive. See, e.g., Lemon Markets.

[Uno]

Re: Reboot America

"The influence of corporatism over government needs to be broken."

and you think "private industry" will accomplish that? It must come from centralized leadership and a re-distribution of wealth from the financial class and the governing class back to the middle class.

This is why people voted for Obama, with that hope in mind, we will see if he delivers, but a huge "stimulus" is indeed required to break existing corporate corruption and collusion.

I think many of you have drunk the Fountain Head kool-aid most of your lives.

It is exactly the Chicago School and "there is no free lunch" thinking that is fatally flawed and directly led to the current mess.

Too many people equate this thinking with "America" itself but it is really just a financial theory that led "America" down the wrong path.

A few things in America that were centrally managed:

1. The US Constitution and The Bill Of Rights
2. The Interstate Highway System
3. The Atom Bomb
4. The Internet (google DARPA)
....

America needs a leader with a big vision that dare America to innovate -and I'm not talking Web 3.0 crap:

1. Energy - build an entire new engergy infrastructure from the ground up. No chance private industry can do this alone without a government leadership in breaking down existing walls.

2. Health Care - build an entire new health care infrastructure from the ground up. No chance private industry can do this alone without a government leadership breaking down existing walls.

3. Finance - build an entire new financial system .....

4. Education - ....

If America does not get her act together and fast (ie. Obama) then I predict you will see a massive brain drain OUT of America, first time ever I believe, into those nations that are thinking about the big issues of the 21st century vs. stuck in the industrial revolution and drinking kool-aid out the FountianHead.

[Sharky]

Re: Reboot America

I like that some "force" (government) is out there that will keep people from not cutting their grass, that will keep them from filling their front lawns with cars that don't run, that keep them from having multiple dogs, hogs, cows, chickens in their backyards, or letting all these critters run wild. There would be no need to have laws to make these things happen, and I am rather sure there weren't always such laws, if people's shortcomings did not interfere with the quality of life of those around them. I would hate to continually be at odds with neighbors were they to choose to do things in their way of living that interfered with my way of living; thus rules for the society evolve, and to me societal rules and regulations have some definite usefulness.

So, it's OK with you if people are threatened at the point of a gun if they have too many dogs (or whatever)? Why do you think force is an acceptable solution to that problem?

If your city suddenly decided that something you're currently doing was a crime -- like maybe watering your lawn -- without talking to you and without a popular vote, you're OK with that?

If government is powerful enough to take one of your freedoms away, its powerful enough to take them all.

Well, if the below-code apartment-building burns down and kills whoever is in it through no fault of theirs, then I think those killed would have been better off not living in the below-code-apartment building even if it meant living homeless, the assumption being that staying alive has some value.

Yeah, that's the typical public response. The reality is that it's about risk. What is the risk of dying if you live on the street -- either from crime or disease or just exposure to the elements? Compare that to the risk of dying in a building that's not up to code. The millions of people living overseas in below-code buildings should provide an obvious answer. Sure, you might die in a fire, but you have a much higher chance of dying on the street.

Of course the government's solution is government housing -- and we can all see how well that's worked.

You write like someone who has never been ripped off by hiring a workman that your buddy knows and got you to use him, but who isn't licensed to plumb, wire a service box, install a gas water heater, etc. Licensure of probably all types I imagine arose because there were too many people without the necessary knowledge to do things well enough to justify the costs and insure the safety of what they were being paid to deliver. That would apply to doctors, lawyers, accountants, nurses, teachers, truck drivers, plumbers, electricians, and I suppose many other trades. If all service providers knew enough to do things well and and actually did things well without taking advantage of customers who don't know everything about everything, no licensure procedures would have evolved. Unfortunately there is something in many humans that makes them want to make as much money as possible by doing the least possible to justify their getting paid.

Oh, I've been ripped-off alright. But I've found just as many ripoffs -- in fact, probably even more -- with licensed tradesmen of all kinds as with unlicensed ones. I've found that licensing alone gives almost zero indication as to whether they're either honest or competent. That includes construction workers of all kinds as well as doctors, lawyers, you name it. The best doctor I know just recently his license for totally stupid reasons. The best legal advice I've ever had was from a victim of the law, not a lawyer. I've had construction done by unlicensed construction workers (overseas) that was easily twice the quality of licensed workers, and at only about 20% of the cost.

My conclusion: government adds no value for me, and I suspect adds minimal or no value for most -- and in fact probably costs most people much more than it saves them.

without government there would be no possible retribution unless you happen to believe in Hell.

I don't want retribution. It doesn't help me in the slightest if someone goes to prison after damaging me. What I want is repayment. Does the government make that possible? In most cases, no. If someone steals from me, they get an expensive trial and then get free food and lodging at public expense for some number of years, with the total cost in the hundreds of thousands. And yet I, the victim, never get reimbursed for the few thousand I might have lost. And that's supposed to be "justice"?

I happen to have had the opportunity to learn about building codes for homes in my city, and I do know about how safe my house is. But that is just for the last 14 years. Prior to that I didn't know jack-shit about codes and was a sitting duck for anyone who might have ripped me off.

So now that you understand the codes, would you feel comfortable working with tradesmen who aren't licensed? Does it bother you that you can't legally do so, even if you wanted to?

[Judas]

Re: Reboot America

So the choices are no government at all (because everything will just work itself out), or government which tells me which wine to buy because I can't trust wine magazines (and massive bureacracies are needed instead of just enforcing laws against fraud)?

I think we've reached the silly point. Anyone who thinks our overall government (collective fed/state/county/local in the US) isn't at least three times as big as it needs to be, or who thinks that a town can't collectively decide that there's no dumping of industrial acid in the pond, is probably a bit skewed in public policy issues.

[Guest]

Re: Reboot America

Then the "government sign off" on some project that must comply with building codes, if it is inadequate to assure some standard of quality is a failure of government, though I don't think you implied that, or did you?

It seems to me the greater the population, the more buildings and remodeling there are to take place, so if there is some entity to attempt to assure quality of some degree and to prevent people from being sold substandard workmanship, then it necessitates bigger government in the sense it takes more people to do more inspections, or more people to patrol more traffic for wreckless or drunk drivers, etc.

None of this code enforcement or highway traffic enforcement , etc. would be necessary if one smaller group of people did not infringe upon the welfare of another larger group. To me it is very simple: more people, more crooks, more victims, greater need for some authority to control the crooks. I'm not an advocate for more governemnt, but I absolutely am an advocate for the best government that can exist, and I almost will guarantee you that a civil society cannot exist without government.

Your example of a hair washer needing a license may be true, but I doubt it if the person only washes hair, please correct me if I am wrong. Someone should assure that a barber does something to prevent the transmission of bacterial or viral disease when using intruments that can cut skin. I had a barber cut off a piece of my ear when he was talking about hair styling and all it offered vs. having been paying attention to where he was whacking with his scissors. If all barbers were knowledgeable about HIV and all of them knew how to prevent its transmission in the performace of their trade, then I doubt if licensure or some type of oversight for barbers developed. I don't know now if barbers have oversight (last haircut in 1993), but I suppose they do.

This is rhetorical: If you, flintlock, are bidding on a project and you need work, in order to get your bid low, is it done by cutting down the quality of your work and keeping profits as high as possible, or is the quality going to be as good as you would provide for any price, and your low bid if accepted would result in your having less profit?

I've thought a lot about the situation: does a high fee for services assure the highest possible result? You know people are always saying "you get what you pay for," a statement that to me is meaningless.

My conclusion is that you cannot pay someone to do quality work if such work lies beyond their abilities or their personal need to only do quality work, thus paying the highest bidder does not assure the highest quality for what is being purchased.

Ouch. I'm not sure which part of the licensing training and test says "don't cut people's ears off" though.

I'm just glad we had govn't licensed barbers and home builders to get us through those tough pioneer days.

[Guest]

Re: Reboot America

Everyone in prison for a non-violent crime would be pardoned and released. All taxes of any kind would be gone. I would then resign as king, stand back, and let the real free market work.

I guess you would have Bernard Madoff's vote for King.

[tsetsefly]

Re: Reboot America

"The influence of corporatism over government needs to be broken."

and you think "private industry" will accomplish that? It must come from centralized leadership and a re-distribution of wealth from the financial class and the governing class back to the middle class.

This is why people voted for Obama, with that hope in mind, we will see if he delivers, but a huge "stimulus" is indeed required to break existing corporate corruption and collusion.

I think many of you have drunk the Fountain Head kool-aid most of your lives.

It is exactly the Chicago School and "there is no free lunch" thinking that is fatally flawed and directly led to the current mess.

Too many people equate this thinking with "America" itself but it is really just a financial theory that led "America" down the wrong path.

A few things in America that were centrally managed:

1. The US Constitution and The Bill Of Rights
2. The Interstate Highway System
3. The Atom Bomb
4. The Internet (google DARPA)
....

America needs a leader with a big vision that dare America to innovate -and I'm not talking Web 3.0 crap:

1. Energy - build an entire new engergy infrastructure from the ground up. No chance private industry can do this alone without a government leadership in breaking down existing walls.

2. Health Care - build an entire new health care infrastructure from the ground up. No chance private industry can do this alone without a government leadership breaking down existing walls.

3. Finance - build an entire new financial system .....

4. Education - ....

If America does not get her act together and fast (ie. Obama) then I predict you will see a massive brain drain OUT of America, first time ever I believe, into those nations that are thinking about the big issues of the 21st century vs. stuck in the industrial revolution and drinking kool-aid out the FountianHead.

So, the last 20 years have seen a transfer of wealth into the financial sector from the rest of the economy, we agree the transfer was wrong but now the solution is to somehow transfer it back?
But the "transfer" of wealth was the problem in itself...

It was increased government meddling in the economy that gave out favors to the financial industry.

How is this huge bailout going to provide relief?
1. Where is the money coming from?
2. The bailout money is going to those same corporations that failed in the first place?

[petertribo]

Re: Reboot America

Thomas Friedman’s World Is Flat Broke according to Vanity Fair:

"That’s because the author’s wife, Ann (née Bucksbaum), is an heir to the General Growth fortune. In the past year, the couple—who live in an 11,400-square-foot mansion in Bethesda, Maryland—have watched helplessly as General Growth stock has fallen 99 percent, from a high of $51 to a recent 35 cents a share. The assorted Bucksbaum family trusts, once worth a combined $3.6 billion, are now worth less than $25 million."

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/pol...lat-broke.html

Friedman married into billionaire money. If he was Joe Blow, Columnist, do you think he would have a NYT column? Have his books published? Ha, ha.

This guy is in the running for Dean Of Discredited Pundits.

Here's a five year chart of General Growth stock mentioned above, click on five year button below chart:

http://www.zacks.com/stock/quote/GGP

One may fairly ask why wasn't all the Tom Genius applied first to the family finances? Leave the Universe for later, Captain Tom!

Time to reboot indeed without costly baggage like Tom.

[Sharky]

Re: Reboot America

I guess you would have Bernard Madoff's vote for King.

I doubt it. In my fantasy world (and believe me, I know it's nothing more than that), people would be free to respond to fraudsters (or hire others to do so for them) -- with force if necessary. In a world governed by personal responsibility, treating others poorly is a sure way to poverty, not wealth and success. And in a world with no government to fall back on in the event of a ripoff, people would undoubtedly be much more careful about their investments.

FWIW, Madoff's fraud was so large that it could only have happened with extensive cooperation and complicity. We will probably never know the full extent of it, but it wouldn't surprise me if the government itself was involved in a major way.

Also, in the real world, I fully acknowledge the need for government. But to those who bitch about corporate corruption, my response is that the problem is orders of magnitude worse on the government side -- look at the disasters in Iraq and Afghanistan, to name just two examples.

[Roughneck]

Re: Reboot America

The problem is our government has been bought.The old saying he who has the gold makes the rules comes to mind. Many of the laws repealling regulation and control of the banking system(ie glass act) were lobbied for and bought by the banking and finance industry. The money supply is controlled by the fed, a private banking entity controlled by bankers. Many of our founding fathers were greatly concerned with the bankers controlling the issuing of our nations currrency. Sadly we have outsourced our real economy and the jobs that come with it for the sake of higher corporate profits. Now that the financial ponzi scheme is collapsing the government has to step in and replace consumption and spending absent in the real economy. But it's capacity to do so is limited by the constraints of our debt and the ability to finance it. Unless we rebuild a real economy that provides jobs capable of supporting consumption of goods beyond just the necessities then we are pumping blood into a dying patient. Sadly the election of Oabam leads me to believe we are headed down the road toward socialism and more government control of our lives and economy. All this talk about more or less government. What we need is a government of the people by the people and for the people as designed in our constitutuion. Not one bought and paid for by those with money and power. Whose only aim is increasing their personal wealth at the expense of our country.