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Can Science Help Solve the Economic Crisis?

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  • Can Science Help Solve the Economic Crisis?

    The main cause of the financial crisis is instability in the financial sector including the firms, institutions and markets which comprise it. To understand this instability, we have to begin with the legitimate primary purposes of the financial markets. One is to provide capital, as equity and debt, to the goods and services economy to allow it to thrive and grow. A second is to provide a stable repository for our collective savings. And a third is to responsibly provide appropriate credit to individuals. These legitimate functions have been hijacked by speculative behavior that was unchecked by regulatory structures. The consequences of this threaten to disrupt the productive efforts of millions of ordinary people who go to work every day to make stuff and provide services to one another.


    In the decades leading to this crisis, the shift in our economic thinking from the long-term view on Main Street to short-term speculation and gratification on Wall Street have not only brought us to the brink of economic collapse, but have also compromised a sufficient flow of capital to important long-term initiatives—economic sustainability, renewal of infrastructure, abatement of climate change, and development of alternative energy sources—all important to a vibrant and sustainable economy.


    This has happened before in history—in Rome, in Spain, Holland and England. More recently, in America, there were smaller crises before to the present one, perhaps early warnings—Black Monday, Long Term Capital Management, the dotcom bomb, and others. Now that we live in a global economy, we cannot afford the next crisis, an order of magnitude larger, in which the world's governments themselves will have to be bailed out. Rather, we can only hope that these governments are collectively up to the task this time.


    There is honor and service to society in inventing and building companies and products that make life better for people, which should be justly rewarded. There is honor in architecting balanced financial regulation, to which we should dedicate careful attention. There is honor for the important financial sector when it functions as it should for the collective good, and this too should also be justly rewarded. Reasoned risk-taking by knowledgeable investors plays an important role in capital markets in providing support for initially risk innovations. But there is no honor in abusing our regulatory and financial systems for reckless speculation (i.e. gambling) that has no productive value for our collective future and that of the generations who will follow.


    Nonetheless, blame will not get us out of this situation. We need to understand how and why the crisis happened and why warnings over the last years were not understood or heeded. We need to use this knowledge to stop this crisis and get the economy functioning again. In the longer term, we need to redesign and reregulate the financial system so that it performs its necessary functions without leading to periodic crises of global scale.


    Two basic assumptions must guide any thinking as we undertake these tasks. First, economies, financial institutions and markets cannot function without a context of rules and laws, which regulate them. In a market, each participant tries to do the best they can for themselves. In a properly architected and regulated market this contributes to the public good. There is simply no place for an ideological discussion about regulation. Stable systems in nature such as individual organisms and ecosystems are regulated. So must ours be. The only relevant question is do the regulations work or not, where work means that stable markets allow an orderly flow of capital to and from the goods and services economy and the people who comprise it.


    Second, mathematics, physics and computers already play a major and necessary role in our economic affairs. People with training in mathematical sciences play a big role on Wall Street designing and valuing complex investment instruments, and running sophisticated trading strategies. There is no going back to the era before banks and funds depended on quantitative analysis and big computer programs, and the scientifically trained people to run them. Along with economists with whom they work, other scientists and computer scientists now have a profound responsibility to see that their skills, the principles which they have found effective, and the tools they have wrought, are all used well and wisely.

    2. The crisis is at least partly due to shortcomings a certain theory of economics

    "Those of us who have looked to the self-interest of lending institutions to protect shareholder's equity (myself especially) are in a state of shocked disbelief. … It was the failure to properly price such risky assets that precipitated the crisis. In recent decades, a vast risk management and pricing system has evolved, combining the best insights of mathematicians and finance experts supported by major advances in computer and communications technology. A Nobel Prize was awarded for the discovery of the pricing model that underpins much of the advance in derivatives markets. This modern risk management paradigm held sway for decades. The whole intellectual edifice, however, collapsed in the summer of last year because the data inputted into the risk management models generally covered only the past two decades, a period of euphoria."
    — Testimony of Dr. Alan Greenspan, US House of Representatives Committee on Government Oversight and Reform, October 23, 2008
    When economists and other scientists study a complex system they begin by asking about what assumptions have been used previously in understanding it, and how well they have done compared to data. So if we approach the crisis in this way, we have to begin by asking about the principles and assumptions that have been used to construct and justify ...
    Continued...
    http://edge.org/3rd_culture/brown08/brown08_index.html

  • #2
    Re: Can Science Help Solve the Economic Crisis?

    No, just being honest with ourselves on the current situation and using common sense.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Can Science Help Solve the Economic Crisis?

      ----nm----
      Last edited by politicalfootballfan; February 02, 2009, 08:13 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Can Science Help Solve the Economic Crisis?

        Originally posted by CharlesTMungerFan View Post
        I read this and thought... WTF?

        Mathematical techniques are not, in and of themselves, "science". Scientists are trained in mathematical techniques, but just because a trained scientist goes to Wall Street and gets a job as a "quant" applying mathematical techniques to trading doesn't make his or her product the product of "science". What they were doing is really more akin to engineering based upon an unproven theory, which is ass-backwards. Now, if they close the loop and adjust their theory, then maybe I'll agree they are engaging in science -- but a branch of science that is too early in its development for any sensible person to use as the basis for engineering. This is a case of "borrowed prestige": "scientists" figured out how the atom works pretty well and gave us lots of neat technology, so we'll use quantitative models in finance, call it "science", and everybody will be impressed.

        More broadly speaking, science -- real science -- can help solve the financial crisis. rj1's comment notwithstanding, real science is "being honest with ourselves" and "using common sense". Being objective in the interpretation of data is at the core of science -- looking at what is, and not what "should be" from a dogmatic standpoint. Common sense is another word for logic, and implies the application of Occam's razor. All science is, is objectivity and common sense, with a bit of math.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Can Science Help Solve the Economic Crisis?

          ----nm----
          Last edited by politicalfootballfan; February 02, 2009, 08:13 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Can Science Help Solve the Economic Crisis?

            Originally posted by politicalfootballfan View Post
            Is this really what we want, more advanced markets so our pockets can be picked by economic rocket scientists?


            "Investing is increasingly becoming dominated by mathematicians,
            electrical engineers, and programmers," says Adrian Cooper,
            vice president of Wall Street Analysts."


            Cracking Wall Street
            http://www.cs.brown.edu/research/ai/...allStreet.html
            With more science, and less faith, at work in the markets, you would have less money riding on untested theories. Don't conflate mathematical complexity with science. It seems to me that part of the present problem is that mathematically and scientifically illiterate Wall Street types can't tell the difference between math and science, and they assume that the successes of quantitative techniques in the hard sciences carry over into economics -- or, more particularly, they assume that any quantitative model must be a good model, because it looks complex and has a reassuringly formal name. Associate the words "predictive and fallsifiable" with science. As I wrote above, it is not scientific to perform engineering based upon an unproven theory. The appearance of scientific rigor is no substitute for its substance, and Wall Street -- and the world -- is learning why you don't design bridges or aircraft without a theory of mechanics and good material parameters that have been directly tested six ways from Sunday under more extreme conditions than they will encounter in service. These bozos "stress-tested" their models theoretically, which is exactly as useless as it sounds. If your model is wrong, then you are going to be wrong about the nature of the "stress", and your stress test is meaningless. That's why you have to directly test your theory in the real world before you go committing the lives (or finances) of others to something you engineer based upon theory.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Can Science Help Solve the Economic Crisis?

              Originally posted by ASH View Post
              With more science, and less faith, at work in the markets, you would have less money riding on untested theories. Don't conflate mathematical complexity with science. It seems to me that part of the present problem is that mathematically and scientifically illiterate Wall Street types can't tell the difference between math and science, and they assume that the successes of quantitative techniques in the hard sciences carry over into economics -- or, more particularly, they assume that any quantitative model must be a good model, because it looks complex and has a reassuringly formal name. Associate the words "predictive and fallsifiable" with science. As I wrote above, it is not scientific to perform engineering based upon an unproven theory. The appearance of scientific rigor is no substitute for its substance, and Wall Street -- and the world -- is learning why you don't design bridges or aircraft without a theory of mechanics and good material parameters that have been directly tested six ways from Sunday under more extreme conditions than they will encounter in service. These bozos "stress-tested" their models theoretically, which is exactly as useless as it sounds. If your model is wrong, then you are going to be wrong about the nature of the "stress", and your stress test is meaningless. That's why you have to directly test your theory in the real world before you go committing the lives (or finances) of others to something you engineer based upon theory.
              You are right on Ash. The critiques conflate math with science. Edge.org is an amazing site which I encourage all to check out. The math/science distinction is not lost on the edge contributors:

              NASSIM NICHOLAS TALEB: I urge all you scientists to go take your "science" where it may work—and leave us in the real world without more problems. Please, please, enough of this "science". We have enough problems without you. ...


              DOUGLAS RUSHKOFF: The greatest danger of this compromised and arbitrary "scientific-style" approach to economics is that it implies an equivalence of the economy with nature. The sense is that the economy is really an ecology in which the laws of physics and nature actually apply. Sure they apply, but only as much as they apply to any utterly synthetic and manufactured environment. ...


              MIKE BROWN: I think the main thing science has to offer in this crisis right now is a little dose of its traditional empirical humility, and when things have gotten pretty screwed up, that is usually a good place to start, if only just for good form. It would also, of course, be wise to remain skeptically mindful of where science may have contributed to the mess. ...


              LARY SANGER: Any scientific project to take on economics and boldly transform it into a hard science will run into that problem of a complexity that is not amenable to rigorous scientific model-building. The other trouble with an "economic Manhattan project" suggestion is the fact that work in the social sciences is inherently ideological. I suppose that the title of the article's section 4, "What is to be done?" was chosen ironically—being the title of Lenin's most famous tract and all. ...


              GOERGE DYSON: "Ten years ago I started a company based on the assumption that people are basically good," argued E-Bay founder Pierre Omidyar (at the Santa Fe Institute) in 2004. "And now I have the data to prove it." Instead of putting a dozen scientists in a room to come up with a better model of the existing global financial system, we should put a dozen Pierre Omidyars, Elon Musks, Salar Kamangars, and Jeff Bezoses in a room (with Danny Hillis) and let them actually build one (a new financial system, not another model). ...


              EMANUEL DERMAN: This is a noble proposal, but I remain a bit of a skeptic with respect to the ability of a cohort of scientists and economists to find a scientific solution to the problems of our economy. Economies are living organisms, about as old as the oldest profession, and rebuilding the economic system from scratch is a problem in engineering and social engineering, not in science. Human's and scientists don't have a good history as regards social engineering. ...


              MICHAEL SHERMER: Expand the problem by many orders of magnitude and we get a sense of the breathtaking inanity of trying to control an entire economy, no matter how smart the experts in our hypothetical economic Manhattan Project may be. The economy is a product of human action, not of human design. Trying to redesign something that was never designed in the first place is futile. I vote no on an economic Manhattan Project. ...


              PAUL ROMER: To be successful, a Capital Markets Safety Board (CMSB) would require both funding and careful attention to incentives. Like the NTSB, a CMSB should be truly independent from the government agencies that are responsible for crisis prevention and crisis management. It should also be protected from influence by firms in the financial sector. In its data collection efforts, it should not rely on university researchers who are themselves susceptible to influence by the interested government agencies or the private sector players. Nor should it use academics who have a personal or professional stake in any particular view about what caused a crisis. It's the soft corruption of lobbying and regulatory capture that should worry us, not ideology. Institutionalized transparency is the best antidote. ...


              TOR NØRRETRANDERS: We now know from experimental economics, game theory and the anthropology of gift giving that this creature exists only in the mind of economists, not in the real world. Humans (and other primates) treat each other with empathy and a striving for fair play (often through the punishment of free riders). Therefore the laudable new discussion of models of the economic system fail to discuss the real issue: Our model of human beings. And it fails to discuss the crucial externality to the economic process: Sometimes we decide to do great things that will lift each and everyone up where we belong. ...


              ERIC WEINSTEIN: Some salvageable models have been kept on life support by adding epicycle after epicycle to deal with their obvious incompatibilities with markets and observed human behavior (e.g. the inexplicable neoclassical insistence on fixed preferences) while common risk measures like Value-at-Risk are probably flawed beyond hope. And yet, insights from fields as diverse as gauge theory, and evolutionary psychology may have a positive role to play in healing what ails the cartoonish homo economicus model to create a more realistic scientific theory of market agency. But the best way to do this is too subject the models to a marketplace of ideas somewhat more vigorous than modern day economics. ...


              BRIAN KNUTSON: What are some implications of these findings for the current crisis? Presently, we need to put a price on ambiguous derivatives (a job for the economists). As long as the value of these contracts remains unresolved, this could generate ultra-uncertainty, which will promote fear, which will keep money in peoples' mattresses and out of the market. In the future, we should regulate (or incentivize) against contracts that resist pricing. ...

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Can Science Help Solve the Economic Crisis?

                Originally posted by ASH View Post
                I read this and thought... WTF?

                Mathematical techniques are not, in and of themselves, "science".
                Mathematics is a language used to describe phenomena, structural and space relationships. To take these descriptions of our world and apply them to economics is akin to a psychologist creating a spreadsheet to diagnose and treat a patient. These failed mathematicians, bringing their trade to economics have less than nothing to offer.

                I was reminded of a quote by Richard Feynman, "I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something." The mathematicians associated with economics know the name of everything and know the meaning of nothing.

                And one more corollary quote, (if you'll allow me to be loose with my terminology): "God was invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand." In the case we're reviewing here, mathematics itself is God, and economics remains a mystery.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Can Science Help Solve the Economic Crisis?

                  Originally posted by santafe2 View Post
                  Mathematics is a language used to describe phenomena, structural and space relationships. To take these descriptions of our world and apply them to economics is akin to a psychologist creating a spreadsheet to diagnose and treat a patient. These failed mathematicians, bringing their trade to economics have less than nothing to offer.

                  I was reminded of a quote by Richard Feynman, "I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something." The mathematicians associated with economics know the name of everything and know the meaning of nothing.

                  And one more corollary quote, (if you'll allow me to be loose with my terminology): "God was invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand." In the case we're reviewing here, mathematics itself is God, and economics remains a mystery.
                  Very well said.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Can Science Help Solve the Economic Crisis?

                    ha ha ha I'd do you one better: It is by science that economic crisis are created!

                    Grand Master Zui teached: How did Egypt build the Pyramids? By figuring out how much grain and water each slave needed per day for the work they wished to accomplish and taking into account an allowance for the death rate. The same for China and its Wall.

                    ha ha ha, thanks for the laugh!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Can Science Help Solve the Economic Crisis?

                      I agree that the term "Science" is used incorrectly often. Science is about understanding nature and the nature of things. Mathematics is generally the language that Scientific theories and hypothesis are quantitatively expressed. Statistics, a branch of mathematics, is the most used, abused, and misunderstood subject matter human beings have ever invented. Computer software is number two. When combined they make smart people stupid and arrogant people dangerous. This is true for Scientists, Economist, and even Politicians. Computer Science has not yet come to an understanding of intelligence. It doesn't even really have a good understanding of it yet. The idea that anybody, such as Greenspan, thought that these "models" or "ideas" where an understanding of intellgient agents in a complex system were made were Scientific and not faith is tragic.

                      I do think that, if we take a deep breath, decide some priorities and create an enviroment of testing and experimentation we can create a dynamic and vibrant economy that meets our needs and feeds our dreams. Bullshit artists such as many on Wall Street, Most in Politics, and a Majority in academia know who they are should basically shut the F**K up so the rest of us can get some where.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Can Science Help Solve the Economic Crisis?

                        Originally posted by Sapiens View Post
                        ha ha ha I'd do you one better: It is by science that economic crisis are created!

                        Grand Master Zui teached: How did Egypt build the Pyramids? By figuring out how much grain and water each slave needed per day for the work they wished to accomplish and taking into account an allowance for the death rate. The same for China and its Wall.

                        ha ha ha, thanks for the laugh!
                        Through this failed logic we could damn all progress. Fire, stone implements, medicinal herbs - gone. Economics will no problem in your cold, dark cave. You can thank science and the good scientists that created it for your long life and your ability to laugh at science.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Can Science Help Solve the Economic Crisis?

                          Originally posted by santafe2 View Post
                          Mathematics is a language used to describe phenomena, structural and space relationships. To take these descriptions of our world and apply them to economics is akin to a psychologist creating a spreadsheet to diagnose and treat a patient. These failed mathematicians, bringing their trade to economics have less than nothing to offer.
                          Look into the success of Bayesian networks in diagnosis, or the use of wave mechanics in modeling traffic. Critique the misapplication of math rather than the general use thereof.

                          I was reminded of a quote by Richard Feynman, "I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something." The mathematicians associated with economics know the name of everything and know the meaning of nothing.

                          And one more corollary quote, (if you'll allow me to be loose with my terminology): "God was invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand." In the case we're reviewing here, mathematics itself is God, and economics remains a mystery.
                          Truth. Ego mixed with a bit of theory is a dangerous thing.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Can Science Help Solve the Economic Crisis?

                            Originally posted by CharlesTMungerFan View Post
                            Look into the success of Bayesian networks in diagnosis, or the use of wave mechanics in modeling traffic. Critique the misapplication of math rather than the general use thereof.
                            Thanks. I'm quite familiar with Bayesian logic as I spent many years of my career in the search engine business. I was critiquing the misapplication of mathematics but may not have been clear.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Can Science Help Solve the Economic Crisis?

                              I will put some rave since this talk reminds me some work I am doing

                              How the "science" work in complex matters:

                              You want to predict weather but do not have computers to model (ex. not invented yet). But you have a yard of frogs and noted how they changed the behavior depending on future weather. So you can start to create complex equations, correlations, recording their voices, measure their grow, movements etc. So this will be looking very "scientific".

                              - Does it make better predictions then just guessing ? More likely yes
                              - Is it right model ? No
                              - Is it science ? No, because you understand frogs do not impact the weather so you should search real strong relationship in the nature where you have object and subject.
                              But if you do not have this "laws" or they are to complex to account or measure you still use frogs as your best tool.

                              Economic is not a rocket since, it is too complex and involves human. We can make right models and know some laws but in small pieces only.

                              We do not have good tools to describe economic. Look on the development of math: a big part of this development are tools and methods. Example: Can you work with physical laws without complex numbers: yes you can, but this will be more complex environment and some things will be difficult to infer. We have zillions of different domains in algebra.

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