got gold?

[jk]

Re: got gold?

This is like Groucho asking you why you've stopped beating your wife. What makes you think gold and crude were ever "coupled" to begin with?

It's purely a monetary illusion. The "price of crude" = value of barrel of oil / value of dollar. The "price of gold" = value of ounce of gold / value of dollar.

Both have the same denominator.

come, come, finster. you know that talking heads rattle on about whether gold is just another commodity, or whether it's some kind of money substitute. [we know, everything can be expressed in terms of every other thing, but that's the way people talk about it.] the underlying question in "is gold coupled to oil?" is "will gold plunge in a recession the way we expect industrial metals and energy products and agricultural commodites to plunge?" [in terms of dollars. {sigh:rolleyes:}]

[Finster]

Re: got gold?

come, come, finster. you know that talking heads rattle on about whether gold is just another commodity, or whether it's some kind of money substitute. [we know, everything can be expressed in terms of every other thing, but that's the way people talk about it.] the underlying question in "is gold coupled to oil?" is "will gold plunge in a recession the way we expect industrial metals and energy products and agricultural commodites to plunge?" [in terms of dollars. {sigh:rolleyes:}]

Okay, here're the answers. Gold is a commodity. Period. Does it have monetary aspects? Yes. Will it plunge in a recession? What the heck is a "recession"? Please define. Keynesian gobbledegook. Irrelevant distraction.

Will it fall in price if the dollar rises in value? It depends. What's going on with the other currencies? Usually, currencies tend to move together since no one seems to want theirs to appreciate relative to the others for too long. In what terms do you mean "plunge"? If the dollar increases in value, the gold price in dollars generally will fall. But if due to popular perception a "recession" is in progress or imminent, the dollar may lose value and the gold price in dollars therefore rise, because the market expects the Fed to respond to this purported "recession" by printing money.

Glad we got that straightened out.

[spunky]

Re: got gold?

Okay, here're the answers. Gold is a commodity. Period. Does it have monetary aspects? Yes. Will it plunge in a recession? What the heck is a "recession"? Please define. Keynesian gobbledegook. Irrelevant distraction.

Will it fall in price if the dollar rises in value? It depends. What's going on with the other currencies? Usually, currencies tend to move together since no one seems to want theirs to appreciate relative to the others for too long. In what terms do you mean "plunge"? If the dollar increases in value, the gold price in dollars generally will fall. But if due to popular perception a "recession" is in progress or imminent, the dollar may lose value and the gold price in dollars therefore rise, because the market expects the Fed to respond to this purported "recession" by printing money.

Glad we got that straightened out.

Finster:
If decoupling is not the proper term, please let me know what is.

[Finster]

Re: got gold?

Finster:
If decoupling is not the proper term, please let me know what is.

:eek:

Well that's probably about the most concise way to put it. It's just that the propaganda value of the term is much too important to let slide. It connotes that the rise in prices of just about everything from gasoline to houses to gold to medical bills to college tuition is somehow due to some mysterious "coupling" force between them. Tend to obscure the fact that our 'honorable' central planners are actually driving down our money, doesn't it?

[jk]

Re: got gold?

What the heck is a "recession"?

finster, please. sometimes your comments on relativity are illuminating, but often, i think, they serve to obscure instead of illuminate. in einsteinian analyses a space-time frame of reference is chosen, against which to calculate the motion and timings of other objects and events. so let's choose a frame of reference. yes, it's all relative. you have written 100 times, bart simpson style [where did i just read that phrase], "the dollar is a variable, not a constant." ok, already. why not say that words mean, in our posts here, just what they'd mean in a reasonably sized dictionary. i'm sure you're aware of the common definitions. "define your terms" is dull debating.

Will it fall in price if the dollar rises in value? It depends.

well something must fall in price if the dollar rises in value. otherwise what does it mean for the dollar to rise in value?

In what terms do you mean "plunge"?

3 meter platform diving

If the dollar increases in value, the gold price in dollars generally will fall. But if due to popular perception a "recession" is in progress or imminent, the dollar may lose value and the gold price in dollars therefore rise, because the market expects the Fed to respond to this purported "recession" by printing money.

why obscure or distract from the issue about which spunky was commenting: under what conditions does the price of gold and the price of oil track together? [i'd summarize by saying oil tracks growth and gold tracks inflation{defined as in any dictionary you might have laying around, sigh:rolleyes:}]

[bart]

Re: got gold?

you have written 100 times, bart simpson style

Careful there...

i'm sure you're aware of the common definitions. "define your terms" is dull debating.

You are, he is, and so am I... but how many folk can define terms with precision and then understand them.

It doesn't work to slam a basic like defining terms when much of the whole issue with the economic mess is directly due to false data derived directly from false or misunderstood definitions. You may be debating and have understanding where many (most?) don't.

And besides, it would be a massive surprise and then some to both Hayakawa and Korzybyski to see words and meanings severely under valued or under weighted as you seem to desire.

[spunky]

Re: got gold?

JK:
Yes, I agree with you JK , about gold tracking inflation. However I believe there are 3 things going on with Gold now

1) Money shifting out of american dollars to gold( weakening dollar ) . Asian and Middle Eastern private investors here. Not CB's


2) Basic supply and demand , with consoldation of the Gold mining industry, and South African mines slowly wearing out


3) New ways to invest in gold through quasi equities.They do require X amount in reserve though. I believe most of those funds are lying and dont have enough to cover their assess, or even a fraction there of.


Got Gold :p

[jk]

Re: got gold?

JK:
Yes, I agree with you JK , about gold tracking inflation. However I believe there are 3 things going on with Gold now

1) Money shifting out of american dollars to gold( weakening dollar ) . Asian and Middle Eastern private investors here. Not CB's

a lot of people think at least some of the cb's are buying too. i have no direct knowledge, of course, but in bart's charts of cb reserves the "unallocated" category is more than ample to accomodate some gold buying

2) Basic supply and demand , with consoldation of the Gold mining industry, and South African mines slowly wearing out

don't forget, though, that all the gold ever mined is still hanging around; it is not consumed. the annual new production is low in comparison with gold already mined. i think the big demand swing factor is increased investment/speculation as people lose faith in currencies and see lots of inflation ahead.

3) New ways to invest in gold through quasi equities.They do require X amount in reserve though. I believe most of those funds are lying and dont have enough to cover their assess, or even a fraction there of.

fraud is mor prevalent later in the cycle. look at housing or tech bubble stocks: the fraud was well into the cycle. so it's early for gold-related items to be fraudulent, though that's no guarantee. i wonder if anyone here has knowledge of how stored gold/silver is guaranteed?

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: got gold?

fraud is mor prevalent later in the cycle. look at housing or tech bubble stocks: the fraud was well into the cycle. so it's early for gold-related items to be fraudulent, though that's no guarantee. i wonder if anyone here has knowledge of how stored gold/silver is guaranteed?

http://www.gold-trust.com/safeguards.htm
"Safeguards:
The Deed of Trust of Gold-Trust specifies that at least 90% of the assets of Gold-Trust are to be invested in pure, refined gold bullion. However the policy of the Board of Trustees of Gold-Trust specifies that at least 95% of the assets of Gold-Trust shall be invested in gold at this time.
The gold held for Gold-Trust may not be delivered by the bank custodian for any sale or other purpose without receipt of a certified resolution of the Board of Trustees specifying the purpose and giving direction in respect to specific amounts.
No Trustee or Officer of Gold-Trust may enter the vault storage facility area of the bank where gold is held on behalf of Gold-Trust without being accompanied by a representative of the firm of auditors appointed as Auditors of Gold-Trust and by two officers of the bank where Gold-Trust’s gold is stored.
The gold shall be audited annually and spot audited on at least one more occasion each year by bar number, refiner, weight and purity in the presence of a Trustee or Officer of Gold-Trust, at least one representative of Gold-Trust’s Auditor and two bank representatives. "

I found this in regard to GTU the relatively new Canadian gold fund similar to CEF, except it it only gold. I presume the final answer comes down to "trust."

[metalman]

Re: got gold?

http://www.gold-trust.com/safeguards.htm
"Safeguards:
The Deed of Trust of Gold-Trust specifies that at least 90% of the assets of Gold-Trust are to be invested in pure, refined gold bullion. However the policy of the Board of Trustees of Gold-Trust specifies that at least 95% of the assets of Gold-Trust shall be invested in gold at this time.
The gold held for Gold-Trust may not be delivered by the bank custodian for any sale or other purpose without receipt of a certified resolution of the Board of Trustees specifying the purpose and giving direction in respect to specific amounts.
No Trustee or Officer of Gold-Trust may enter the vault storage facility area of the bank where gold is held on behalf of Gold-Trust without being accompanied by a representative of the firm of auditors appointed as Auditors of Gold-Trust and by two officers of the bank where Gold-Trust’s gold is stored.
The gold shall be audited annually and spot audited on at least one more occasion each year by bar number, refiner, weight and purity in the presence of a Trustee or Officer of Gold-Trust, at least one representative of Gold-Trust’s Auditor and two bank representatives. "

I found this in regard to GTU the relatively new Canadian gold fund similar to CEF, except it it only gold. I presume the final answer comes down to "trust."

trust is relative. from bullionvault's help page...

# Safety. BullionVault gold is real physical gold which you own. It is unlike unallocated gold, gold accounts, futures, pool accounts, and even trust based products like gold certificates and Exchange Traded Funds because in BullionVault the gold you own is your property - outright.
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# Safety. Modern encryption methods, Brinks physical storage facilities, the inclusive insurance, BullionVault's burglar alarm, the unique exit route for your money back to your original funding bank account, the daily published reconciliation of client property, the fact that your gold is owned by you and not by an intermediating trust; these and other security features make BullionVault an exceptionally secure store for your savings.
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