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  • Roubini: No Poom

    In the latest post to his blog, Nouriel Roubini seems to pooh-pooh the possibility of poom.

    http://www.rgemonitor.com/roubini-mo...plus_deflation

    So should we worry that this financial crisis and its fiscal costs will eventually lead to higher inflation? The answer to this complex question is: likely not.

    First of all, the massive injection of liquidity in the financial system – literally trillions of dollars in the last few months – is not inflationary as it accommodating the demand for liquidity that the current financial crisis and investors’ panic has triggered. Thus, once the panic recede and this excess demand for liquidity shrink central banks can and will mop up all this excess liquidity that was created in the short run to satisfy the demand for liquidity and prevent a spike in interest rates.

    Second, the fiscal costs of bailing out financial institutions would eventually lead to inflation if the increased budget deficits associated with this bailout were to be monetized as opposed to being financed with a larger stock of public debt. As long as such deficits are financed with debt – rather than by running the printing presses – such fiscal costs will not be inflationary as taxes will have to be increased over the next few decades and/or government spending reduced to service this large increase in the stock of public debt.

    Third, wouldn’t central banks be tempted to monetize these fiscal costs - rather than allow a mushrooming of public debt – and thus wipe out with inflation these fiscal costs of bailing out lenders/investors and borrowers? Not likely in my view: even a relatively dovish Bernanke Fed cannot afford to let the inflation expectations genie out of the bottle via a monetization of the fiscal bailout costs; it cannot afford/be tempted to do that because if the inflation genie gets out of the bottle (with inflation rising from the low single digits to the high single digits or even into the double digits) the rise in inflation expectations will eventually force a nasty and severely recessionary Volcker-style monetary policy tightening to bring back the inflation expectation genie into the bottle. And such Volcker-style disinflation would cause an ugly recession. Indeed, central banks have spent the last 20 years trying to establish and maintain their low inflation credibility; thus destroying such credibility as a way to reduce the direct costs of the fiscal bailout would be highly corrosive and destructive of the inflation credibility that they have worked so hard to achieve and maintain.

    Fourth, inflation can reduce the real value of debts as long as it is unexpected and as long as debt is in the form of long-term nominal fixed rate liabilities. The trouble is that an attempt to increase inflation would not be unexpected and thus investors would write debt contracts to hedge themselves against such a risk if monetization of the fiscal deficits does occur. Also, in the US economy a lot of debts – of the government, of the banks, of the households – are not long term nominal fixed rate liabilities. They are rather shorter term, variable rates debts. Thus, a rise in inflation in an attempt to wipe out debt liabilities would lead to a rapid re-pricing of such shorter term, variable rate debt. And thus expected inflation would not succeed in reducing the part of the debts that are now of the long term nominal fixed rate form. I.e. you can fool all of the people some of the time (unexpected inflation) and some of the people all of the time (those with long term nominal fixed rate claims) but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time. Thus, trying to inflict a capital levy on creditors and trying to provide a debt relief to debtors may not work as a lot of short term or variable rate debt will rapidly reprice to reflect the higher expected inflation.

    In conclusion, a sharp slack in goods, labor and commodity markets will lead to global deflationary trends over the next year. And the fiscal costs of bailing out borrowers and/or lenders/investors will not be inflationary as central banks will not be willing to incur the high costs of very high inflation as a way to reduce the real value of debt burdens of governments and distressed borrowers. The costs of rising expected and actual inflation will be much higher than the benefits of using the inflation/seignorage tax to pay for the fiscal costs of cleaning up the mess that this most severe financial crisis has created. As long – as likely – as these fiscal costs are financed with public debt rather than with a monetization of these deficits inflation will not be a problem either in the short run or over the medium run.

  • #2
    Re: Roubini: No Poom

    Everything paper will be inflated-away to nothing, nice and slooooooowly, just the way the central bankers want.... I know this song real well. :rolleyes:

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Roubini: No Poom

      I agree: there's a persistent misunderstanding on this forum on how central banks work, and it's costing a lot of subscribers money.

      In hind-sight, going long the Yen, aside from option trading I've been doing, has been the best trade I've made so far.

      The worst trade? ALL inflation hedges: total abortion.

      I feel like an idiot, frankly: it was obvious the carry trade would totally unwind. I am disappointed that EJ did not address this nor advise people to get long yen.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Roubini: No Poom

        Originally posted by phirang View Post
        I agree: there's a persistent misunderstanding on this forum on how central banks work...
        Can you provide some links that explain how CB's work in layman's terms?

        I'm particularly puzzled by this:

        Thus, once the panic recede and this excess demand for liquidity shrink central banks can and will mop up all this excess liquidity that was created in the short run to satisfy the demand for liquidity and prevent a spike in interest rates.
        I was under the impression that increasing interest rates was the method by which CB's would "mop up" excess liquidity. How else can they destroy liquidity?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Roubini: No Poom

          [quote=bpr;56727]Can you provide some links that explain how CB's work in layman's terms?

          I'm particularly puzzled by this:



          I was under the impression that increasing interest rates was the method by which CB's would "mop up" excess liquidity. How else can they destroy liquidity?[/quote]

          I suggest learning about central banking on your own rather than hoping EJ or someone else guesses(incorrectly) for you. I have, and I wish I had learned more earlier. What I find most dangerous is the contempt shown for Bernanke, who is a very, very, very smart man and would destroy anyone here in topics involving economics. Enough sophmoric theories have lost i-tulipers money.

          There are lots of ways to suck up liquidity: reserves requirements, collateral rule changes, and of course FOMC (again, I suggest reading up on the FOMC and how exactly it works).

          It does concern me what Roubini says, and some pat answers from FRED won't cut it. You can say EJ isn't a trader bla bla, but you know what, there comes a point when you ask, "then what is he?"

          I want to see EJ take on Roubini. Until he does, I'm not convinced.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Roubini: No Poom

            "How central banks work" presumes that they do work at all, which in our present environment is at least arguably a leap of faith you may embrace without hesitation Phirang, but which others may be approaching a little more skeptically, and not entirely without reason given the rampant chaos in the wider picture. Fed in control?

            They are going to need a *large* vacuum cleaner in quite good working order to suck up the debris from this experiment: :rolleyes:

            Doug Noland Quote:

            "Federal Reserve Credit expanded another $63.2bn to a record $1.803 TN, with a historic 6-wk increase of $915bn. Fed Credit has expanded $930bn y-t-d (129% annualized) and $944bn y-o-y (110%). Fed Foreign Holdings of Treasury, Agency Debt last week (ended 10/22) declined $7.6bn to $2.479 TN. "Custody holdings" were up $422bn y-t-d, or 25% annualized, and $448bn y-o-y (22%)."

            http://www.safehaven.com/article-11663.htm

            They are just getting warmed up maybe, but you opine that it's all "instantly retractable"? What about the patient's subsequent response to that retraction?

            What you are doing is something similar to what $#* did with the "oil bubble" topic. You ably commandeer a secular market crash which has engendered massive deflationary tendences as the "theoretical armature" to explain why the Fed's reflationary excesses are in fact a tame creature and a deftly coordinated bit of financial engineering. This is akin to using kerosene, with a low flash point as a "deftly controllable tool".

            You can pour it over some faintly smouldering embers and it won't light right away. If you don't time your bucket of water with exquisite precision, the vaporizing kerosene can instantly ignites into a fuel-air bomb at an indeterminate point, and your subsequent bucket of water loses 90% of it's dousing efficiency in seconds thereafter.

            This sort of blithe gliding over the rapidly multiplying imponderables in the issues is similar to $#* deriding the urgency of the global petroleum MACRO supply / demand equation by pointing to the quite evident supply glut today as a macro-harbinger.

            His observation fortuitously coincides with a secular commodities and credit markets crash, but has evidenced a little carelessness in absorbing the full extent of the petroleum industry's reports regarding potential near-future production growth, as those reports accumulated in the 5 years prior to this market crash.

            The FED "in control" of this event at least from me, elicits a grin.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Roubini: No Poom

              Roubini: perfect record, detailed what, why, and when.

              EJ: vague guesses on stuff. Got the obvious right.

              Your choice on whom to listen to.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Roubini: No Poom

                Originally posted by phirang View Post
                I agree: there's a persistent misunderstanding on this forum on how central banks work, and it's costing a lot of subscribers money.

                In hind-sight, going long the Yen, aside from option trading I've been doing, has been the best trade I've made so far.

                The worst trade? ALL inflation hedges: total abortion.

                I feel like an idiot, frankly: it was obvious the carry trade would totally unwind. I am disappointed that EJ did not address this nor advise people to get long yen.

                pirang, with whom do you agree, Starving Steve or Roubin?
                Jim 69 y/o

                "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

                Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

                Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Roubini: No Poom

                  Originally posted by phirang View Post
                  I am disappointed that EJ did not address this nor advise people to get long yen.
                  http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...=9604#poststop
                  http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...=9616#poststop

                  Next?
                  http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/25/bu...=worldbusiness
                  Published: October 24, 2008
                  “This is a panic in the way of the fine 19th-century panics, where we all run around like headless chickens,” said R. Jeremy Grantham, chairman of the Boston-based investment firm GMO, who had predicted stocks would tumble. “I have been in the business for 40 years, and I have never seen anything like this.”
                  So great are the concerns among policy makers about the turmoil in currency markets that it has prompted talk of a coordinated intervention by the leading industrial countries in coming days, to quell the soaring dollar and put a floor under emerging-market currencies.
                  Such a move — in which the Federal Reserve and other central banks would sell dollars and yen and buy other currencies — has been used extremely sparingly by the United States in recent years.
                  “The risk is huge, but it is appropriate at this point, because if the emerging markets go into default, the consequences would be catastrophic,” said Kenneth S. Rogoff, an economist at Harvard.
                  Roubini Says Stay Away from `Risky' Assets, U.S. Dollar
                  http://www.bloomberg.com/avp/avp.htm?N=av&T=Roubini%20Says%20Stay%20Away%20from%20%60Risky'% 20Assets%2C%20U.S.%20Dollar&clipSRC=mms://media2.bloomberg.com/cache/vvV5lDr_BAkw.asf

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Roubini: No Poom

                    You do take the point though, on the "kerosene vapors" and the "perfect control" thingy? Why on earth have they allowed this thing to happen Phirang? It looks to me like a whole warehouse full of exploding grenades, and yet you say they are in perfect control, even playing this event like a Stradivarius violin? An audacious thesis!

                    Your posts are invariably very brief and pithy however, so I have not had a chance to take a good gander at the innards of this thesis of control, among which components languishes the unanswered question: Why they would have embarked upon this highly adventurous and destructive "warehouse full of exploding grenades" experiment in the first place"??

                    Originally posted by phirang View Post
                    Roubini: perfect record, detailed what, why, and when. EJ: vague guesses on stuff. Got the obvious right. Your choice on whom to listen to.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Roubini: No Poom

                      Originally posted by Lukester View Post
                      What you are doing is something similar to what $#* did with the "oil bubble" topic.
                      Well, he was right, wasn't he?
                      Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Roubini: No Poom

                        Who would finance this "mushrooming of public debt"? After what just happened would you be interested in lending the U.S. more money? Is there anyone out there capable of financing the exploding debt?

                        With interest on the debt becoming a larger and larger % of government expenditures, what programs would be slashed? Defense? Social security?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Roubini: No Poom

                          So?

                          There's a BIG difference between POOM and EUR/USD, YEN/USD, and Gold/USD.

                          The USD can depreciate on top of a credit meltdown... that's what Roubini is talking about. The aggregate, though, is not poom.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Roubini: No Poom

                            Originally posted by Master Shake View Post
                            Well, he was right, wasn't he?
                            symbols addressed the underlying issue, and that's what Roubini is getting at.

                            I'm not letting the itulip editors write another jury-rigged essay: they are on the line, and have to deal with Roubini's forecast.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Roubini: No Poom

                              What I never understand about these deflation scenarios is that they talk of China and India, commodity prices, etc. but don't mention the trillions upon trillions of unfunded liabilities of the US government.

                              OK, so there is a slowdown and demand destruction, loss of pricing power, etc. take their toll. Perfectly logical, makes sense.

                              However, will there be demand destruction in Social Security? Will there be demand destruction in Medicare, Medicaid? When Obama gets in the White House with a complaint Congress who will destroy the demand for trillions in spending in "green" initiatives and building stadiums, tunnels, train lines, etc? Won't we need a fuckton of dollars created regardless of the price of copper?

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