Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Britain faces deflation

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Britain faces deflation

    Britain faces deflation for first time since 1960

    Britain will slump into deflation next year for the first time in half a century, experts have warned.



    By Edmund Conway, Economics Editor
    Last Updated: 10:51PM BST 17 Oct 2008


    For the first time since 1960, the cost of living will start to shrink next year, in a worrying parallel of the Japanese "disease" of the 1990s, according to new research.
    The news comes amid growing speculation that the Bank of England will soon be forced to cut borrowing costs to 2pc or below, taking them to their lowest level since it was founded in 1694.
    The Monetary Policy Committee last week unexpectedly cut rates by a half percentage point to 4.5pc in the face of the financial crisis. However, there is also growing evidence that inflation, which has risen above 5pc in recent months, is set for a dramatic fall. The Retail Price Index – the most comprehensive measure of UK high street prices, will drop at an almost unprecedented rate to -2pc by the second half of next year, according to new research from Fathom Consulting.
    It said the fall was largely due to the drop in mortgage costs and house prices, which together form a large part of the RPI. However, lower food and energy prices would also play an important role. Since modern comparable records began in 1956, the RPI has dropped into negative territory only once, in the late 1950s and early 1960s, but it only dropped as far as a rate of -0.5pc.
    Andrew Brigden, economist at Fathom Consulting, said: "This does have worrying implications – particularly if it heralded a general period of deflation. The risk is we have a rerun of Japan because you simply can't [cut interest rates] to below zero."
    Japan suffered almost a decade of deflation and falling economic growth in the 1990s after its debt-fuelled economic bubble burst with painful consequences. Despite cutting official interest rates to zero and pumping cash into the economy, the Bank of Japan was unable to pull prices back up into positive territory for years. However, Fathom predicts RPI will drop below zero for only a few months.
    Whereas high inflation tends to encourage borrowing, deflation encourages saving and, as a result, discourages companies from investing and spending today what they could save for tomorrow.
    Fathom's prediction is based on the assumption that the Bank of England cuts interest rates to 2pc within a year. Although markets anticipate borrowing costs falling to only 3.5pc, a growing cohort of economists think it will be forced into taking more drastic action. Mr Brigden said if oil prices came back below $70 a barrel and house prices fall at an even faster rate, the level of RPI inflation could fall as low as -3pc and remain in negative territory for a year.
    Although Fathom does not expect the Consumer Price Index – the measure targeted by the Bank's MPC – to drop into negative territory, Prof Peter Spencer, of the Ernst & Young Item Club, said such an eventuality was not out of the question.
    "This time next year we're looking at all of these huge increases in bills coming out of the index, and then potentially falling," he said. "CPI will go viciously negative – it's looking increasingly likely that it drops below target. It could easily go into negative territory, along with RPI."


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...ince-1960.html


  • #2
    Re: Britain faces deflation

    Yes it does. But Darling has decided that Britain will get us out of it with POOM.

    http://itulip.com/forums/showpost.ph...9&postcount=13

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Britain faces deflation

      I can't wait for those Limey Bastards to go Bankupt........Nasty "little" people whom NEVER got over the end of their Empire!

      Now their banking empire slips below the waves, they cry.

      Mike

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Britain faces deflation

        Is this what you guys meant about British deflation breaking out? :confused:

        GBP IN GOLD.jpg

        FINANCING_FOR_BEEF_DINNER.jpg

        NEO_EPISTEMOLOGICAL_FORECAS.gif

        Seriiously, you may be right! I went to my supermarket yesterday evening and saw some jaw dropping dicounts! Place was empty and I saw *significant* discounts (scary!).

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Britain faces deflation

          Originally posted by Lukester View Post
          Is this what you guys meant about British deflation breaking out? :confused:

          [ATTACH]708[/ATTACH]

          [ATTACH]709[/ATTACH]

          [ATTACH]705[/ATTACH]

          Seriiously, you may be right! I went to my supermarket yesterday evening and saw some jaw dropping dicounts! Place was empty and I saw *significant* discounts (scary!).
          Deflation observations whack-a-mole!

          Confusion reigns: A crisis-driven global rush to dollar liquidity is not deflation

          I see deep discounts and fire sale prices at the local grocery store. Isn't that deflation?

          Cutting prices to burn off inventory is indeed deflationary. But deflation refers to the condition of a self-reinforcing process of declining demand, rising unemployment, falling wages, and falling output. This happens in countries that are net creditors and have a positive trade balance, such as Japan in the 1990s and the US in the 1930s. That cannot happen in the US because the US is a net debtor that achieves low goods price inflation via imports of goods from low wage producers. Elsewhere in the economy where trade with low wage countries does not contain inflation, such as insurance and tuition costs, inflation is high. The US finances its trade deficit via the sale of financial assets. As US demand for imports falls in recession, demand for US financial assets is also declining for a combination of reasons, including loss of confidence in US markets. As a result, the US will experience a combination of rising prices and falling demand and output.

          Consider the example of your local grocery store and its fire sale. Across the entire retail food sector you will see sales as the recession deepens. The question is, what is the new equilibrium price between the price your grocer pays for new goods and how much he can charge for them?

          Clearly he cannot stay in business for long if the input costs for his goods remain higher than the price he can charge his customers. Input costs must fall as well to match the new lower end user sales prices that are meeting demand in the slower economy or he will not be able to restock the next cycle of inventory and sell it at a profit.


          Unfortunately, with oil still 400% above 2001 prices due to the weak dollar, producer prices are still high and rising. If your grocer does not have a lot of cash on hand to wait out a decline in input prices, he will have to go out of business because he cannot sell every unit of inventory at a loss for long. If the dollar remains weak, as we expect it to, input prices will not fall much if at all; many grocers will have to go out of business; with less competition for customers the survivors will have sufficient pricing power to charge the prices they need to charge to stay in business.

          What happens if half of the grocers in your area wind up going out of business? As floor space per capita shrinks by 50%, stores that survive get to charge what they need to sell at a profit over input costs. A new, higher equilibrium price for food at a smaller number of grocery stores will result as the number of grocery stores in your area declines. Those prices may be higher than they charge today. As a result your grocer's customers' buying behavior will change. Customers will buy less and they will substitute lower quality products.

          That's how it is in countries where the standard of living has declined because the nation had lost purchasing power. If you were in Mexico during their bond, currency crisis and inflation that is what you saw. Or in Russia in the early 1990s, but more extreme. Or Argentina in 2001 but very extreme. A similar process happened in the US in the 1970s.

          Politicians will claim we are suffering from temporary "stagflation" but a more honest phrase is "now we are poor." The only cure is to improve the pricing power of the US, and the only way to do that is to restructure the economy to produce, save, and invest instead of trade inflated assets, borrow and consume. It will be a long road.
          Ed.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Britain faces deflation

            Somebody please whack me across the side of the head with the Sunday paper, or a plank. I do believe Fred is right, but I have suffered a momentary and severe deflationista brain-fart. I think iTulip will be correct in this outcome - but the wait may be like being dragged through all the circles of hell. A currency backed by massive (and exponentially growing) internal debt = how can it gain consistently in net purchasing power, when not linked to anything else in value? The transition through this KA event may be like the longest, most horrible visit to the dentist one has ever experienced. The visit where the dentist looked like a grungy, grease stained garage mechanic, who hauls out a filthy old pair of pliers, and pulls three teeth without anaesthetic, does root canal on three more, and drills out a couple of remaining cavities with a Black & Decker carpenter's drill set at slow speed. :eek: :rolleyes:

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Britain faces deflation

              Originally posted by Lukester View Post
              Somebody please whack me across the side of the head with the Sunday paper, or a plank. I do believe Fred is right, but I have suffered a momentary and severe deflationista brain-fart. I think iTulip will be correct in this outcome - but the wait may be like being dragged through all the circles of hell. A currency backed by massive (and exponentially growing) internal debt = how can it gain consistently in net purchasing power, when not linked to anything else in value? The transition through this KA event may be like the longest, most horrible visit to the dentist one has ever experienced. The visit where the dentist looked like a grungy, grease stained garage mechanic, who hauls out a filthy old pair of pliers, and pulls three teeth without anaesthetic, does root canal on three more, and drills out a couple of remaining cavities with a Black & Decker carpenter's drill set at slow speed. :eek: :rolleyes:
              There was an old Western Movie, I think it was called, "The McGregors" It was as much comedy as Western. In it there was a travelling dentist much as you describe, complete with blood stained apron and pliers!! It's about 50 years since I saw the movie but the image of the dentist always stuick in my mind!!!
              Currently I'm feeling like I have been in the dentist chair for a day or two and not too sure how many teeth i have left.
              So far in Aus it has been more worry than any big financial hit....other than the hijacking of my profits in Junior Gold mines! But my gut feels tighter every day!

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Britain faces deflation

                Has itulip addressed a fall in the velocity of money in the inflation or deflation debate? I couldn't find it anywhere. If velocity slows down significantly due to the decrease in transaction volume, wouldn't this be a deflationary indicator? Doesn't it affect the money supply? I seemed to remember that it did from one of my econ courses. Not an economist, but I follow itulip and the websites listed on www.26econ.com. As an aside, I am not sure why itulip is not linked and ranked on 26econ.com :confused:

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Britain faces deflation

                  Originally posted by Brooks Gracie
                  Has itulip addressed a fall in the velocity of money in the inflation or deflation debate? I couldn't find it anywhere.
                  Check out some of the posts in Finster's forum here on iTulip.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Britain faces deflation

                    Originally posted by zadok View Post
                    Britain faces deflation for first time since 1960

                    Britain will slump into deflation next year for the first time in half a century, experts have warned.




                    The deflationistas need to spend a bit of time at this BBC site...:p

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Britain faces deflation

                      Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
                      The deflationistas need to spend a bit of time at this BBC site...:p
                      Nice stuff there, GRG, but the most up-to-date chart ended in July, that is now ~10 weeks ago. Hopefully this link to a US$ chart will work. Just using it as an example of how things have changed for the moment, look at the time period of the dollar's uptrend. It makes me think the BBC charts will show some lessening of inflation at least when and if they are updated. http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=$US...40&a=132940973
                      Jim 69 y/o

                      "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

                      Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

                      Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Britain faces deflation

                        Australia's latest PPI

                        The PPI was ugly in Q3, greatly exceeding expectations with a 2% rise. This was the biggest increase since 1995, lifting the annual inflation rate to 5.6%, which was its highest level since 1992. Most of the 2% rise in the PPI in the quarter was due to strength in three categories, namely construction, which contributed 0.7ppt, food, which added 0.4ppt, and utilities, which also added 0.4ppt. On the whole, the surprise was the renewed strength in residential construction and food as the pressure on electricity and water prices had been flagged.




                        Not sure how this is all going to convert to CPI, but I know one sector of CPI is sure going to jump in the next 6 months - goods imported from China.

                        It's sure going to get interesting here if inflation persists a bit more than all the pundits are saying. Mind you, again, there is a bit of a need to downplay inflation here as there is a huge need to get interest rates down quickly to keep the whole bubble going.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Britain faces deflation

                          Originally posted by Jim Nickerson View Post
                          Nice stuff there, GRG, but the most up-to-date chart ended in July, that is now ~10 weeks ago. Hopefully this link to a US$ chart will work. Just using it as an example of how things have changed for the moment, look at the time period of the dollar's uptrend. It makes me think the BBC charts will show some lessening of inflation at least when and if they are updated. http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=$US...40&a=132940973
                          Agreed that the near term inflation outlook for anybody in the US Dollar zone will moderate from earlier this year given the US $ exchange rate changes. But I note Outback's comment about goods inflation from China [presumably because of the Aussie $ exchange rate decline against the Yuan]. When the bonar reverses its current rise I am sure we'll see the same accelerating inflationary effect reassert, as EJ predicts.

                          I picked this up from Bloomberg this morning, and found the reason for the earnings decline interesting. Just imagine what happens if, going into the global recession, sales slow even faster than material input costs? Would that be measured as deflation? Somehow I doubt CAT would see it that way.
                          Caterpillar Net Falls 6.4% on Higher Material Costs

                          Oct. 21 (Bloomberg) -- Caterpillar Inc., the world's largest maker of bulldozers and excavators, said third-quarter profit fell 6.4 percent, missing analysts' estimates as costs rose for steel and other materials...

                          ...Chief Executive Officer Jim Owens reaffirmed the company's 2008 forecast and put off issuing its 2009 outlook amid ``substantial turmoil in financial markets.'' Higher prices for fuel, steel and other materials cost Caterpillar $442 million more than a year ago, trimming profit even as sales of mining and road-building equipment rose. Sales of engines for power generation and marine use have slowed in recent months...
                          And finally, what's the bet that CAT is making for the future? An infrastructure bubble in the USA? Nope...
                          ...Owens, is investing $1 billion in emerging markets in the next three years, primarily in China. He is spending $100 million to triple excavator capacity at its Shandong SEM Machinery Co. unit in northern China. The company plans to invest another $200 million in the next four years to increase engine and machinery production in India as demand for backhoe loaders used in construction has quadrupled there.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Britain faces deflation

                            GRG we copped it both ways - FOB and exchange rate. I am off to the Canton Fair tomorrow and will be around China for a couple of weeks so i'll have a better feel for what is going on by teh time i get back (I hope).
                            Hopefully our FOB prices will decline a little. My PE prices are already down substantially. Unfortunately we have about 3 months supply in the pipeline.
                            How much other goods will fall in USD terms is moot. The Yuan is not exactly going down against USD

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Britain faces deflation

                              Originally posted by The Outback Oracle View Post
                              GRG we copped it both ways - FOB and exchange rate. I am off to the Canton Fair tomorrow and will be around China for a couple of weeks so i'll have a better feel for what is going on by teh time i get back (I hope).
                              Hopefully our FOB prices will decline a little. My PE prices are already down substantially. Unfortunately we have about 3 months supply in the pipeline.
                              How much other goods will fall in USD terms is moot. The Yuan is not exactly going down against USD
                              O^2: Look forward, as always, to your first hand perspective. Stay safe.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X