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Credit inflation, Deflation: Prechter Interview

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  • Re: Credit inflation, Deflation: Prechter Interview

    Bart,

    Earlier today, I posted this under Bullish Information. It seems to fit in with what you are saying.

    December 13, 2006
    Why is Everyone So Bearish on Credit Markets, Economy?
    by Clif Droke http://www.safehaven.com/article-6497.htm

    "Based on the money supply and credit creation data we've talked about in recent newsletters, the economy has already landed and should see a gradual upturn over the next several months. Based on this assessment, the incessant talk among analysts of a "hard landing" versus "soft landing" is moot."

    "When analyzing the U.S. economy it really comes down to this: one must always assume that Americans are constantly willing to spend money on consumer discretionary goods, and the only reason they don't always do so is because money supply/credit levels are too low. Period. That's really all you need to know about analyzing U.S. consumer spending habits. The American consumer is an extremely unique creature and unlike consumers of many other countries his first priority is to spend rather than to save. Consumer spending only takes a dive when the Fed severely restricts money supply and bank credit isn't readily available."

    "Well it doesn't get any clearer than that from a contrarian standpoint! Indeed, the fact that Dresdner, Morgan Stanley and others have turned bearish on the credit outlook further underscores the upside potential of not only the credit markets (a leading indicator) but also of the U.S. stock market consumer economy in general. It's always good news when the investment banks and leading financial institutions openly announce a bearish outlook on the markets!"
    Do you want to know what I would find interesting? I would find it highly interesting to know what some of you "heavy-weights" in the financial sense think will be the indicators of the "ka" in EJ's theory (and I write that with serious deference to your knowledge). Probably such has been alluded to already on this board, but I read so much and so little of all I read sticks in my mind. It would be nice to have a thread devoted to signs of impending "ka."

    Originally posted by Bart
    just say that overall credit data hasn't yet shown large signs of the expected significant drop that will signal that the "ka" stage has surely started.
    as an example, how is "the common reader" to best keep track of such occurring?

    What other things are you watching, Bart and anyone else who finds EJ's theory tenable?

    I continue to look at Finster's FDI rate of change graph and for over 3 years that has shown disinflation--which seems to me counter to all the talk of easy credit which I understand to be inflationary.
    Last edited by Jim Nickerson; December 13, 2006, 02:56 PM.
    Jim 69 y/o

    "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

    Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

    Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

    Comment


    • Re: Credit inflation, Deflation: Prechter Interview

      Originally posted by Jim Nickerson
      Bart,

      Earlier today, I posted this under Bullish Information. It seems to fit in with what you are saying.



      Do you want to know what I would find interesting? I would find it highly interesting to know what some of you "heavy-weights" in the financial sense think will be the indicators of the "ka" in EJ's theory (and I write that with serious deference to your knowledge). Probably such has been alluded to already on this board, but I read so much and so little of all I read sticks in my mind. It would be nice to have a thread devoted to signs of impending "ka."

      as an example, how is "the common reader" to best keep track of such occurring?

      What other things are you watching, Bart and anyone else who finds EJ's theory tenable?

      I continue to look at Finster's FDI rate of change graph and for over 3 years that has shown disinflation--which seems to me counter to all the talk of easy credit which I understand to be inflationary.
      But remember ... disinflation is still inflation ...
      Finster
      ...

      Comment


      • Re: Credit inflation, Deflation: Prechter Interview

        Originally posted by bart
        So far, so good from here on the charts and my site... but the overall site traffic sometimes has huge jumps when I get linked from some site. And you might want to consider the poltergeist angle... you residing at The Manor and all... ;)

        I was tempted to sass you some on the "breakdown" area, but I'm only on my 2nd coffee mug full and still feeling mellow. So I'll just (*gasp*) agree with your point ...
        The better part of valor ... ;)

        Originally posted by bart
        ...(or state that you agree with my actual point :p ), and just say that overall credit data hasn't yet shown large signs of the expected significant drop that will signal that the "ka" stage has surely started...
        Credit ... or at least the rate of change of credit ... had better go negative ASAP, or the bonar is toast. After all, that's what "credit" is denominated in ...

        Finster
        ...

        Comment


        • Re: Credit inflation, Deflation: Prechter Interview

          Originally posted by Finster
          But remember ... disinflation is still inflation ...
          Yes, I have not lost awareness of that fact, but without doubt your index shows three years of lessening inflation, which I can only imagine to be the case if it ever arrives at being deflation.

          You didn't weigh in about what things you, the Finster, are watching as signs of Ka-Poom. Note I started a thread on that topic. Is the Finster not concerned? Will asset allocation be protective to deflation if one has no cash in his/her allocation model?
          Jim 69 y/o

          "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

          Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

          Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

          Comment


          • Re: Credit inflation, Deflation: Prechter Interview

            Originally posted by Finster
            Credit ... or at least the rate of change of credit ... had better go negative ASAP, or the bonar is toast. After all, that's what "credit" is denominated in ...

            Some types are and others are looking toppy (like derivatives - the only item on the right hand scale).
            There's a minor down trend in place since early '06 in bank credit, and a much longer one in consumer credit. But real estate credit is still (extraordinarily so in my book) still hanging in there.





            The various interventions this year have been... amazing in their effects. I've blown a number of guesstimates on when we'd top this year... and it has also made me dig and find more missing elements and weightings.
            http://www.NowAndTheFuture.com

            Comment


            • Re: Credit inflation, Deflation: Prechter Interview

              Originally posted by Jim Nickerson
              Yes, I have not lost awareness of that fact, but without doubt your index shows three years of lessening inflation, which I can only imagine to be the case if it ever arrives at being deflation.

              You didn't weigh in about what things you, the Finster, are watching as signs of Ka-Poom. Note I started a thread on that topic. Is the Finster not concerned? Will asset allocation be protective to deflation if one has no cash in his/her allocation model?
              Deflation, at least as I ordinarily use the term, means cash is rising in value. If cash is rising in value, presumably it is doing so in relation to the other major asset classes. Consequently, if one has no cash and "deflation" is in effect, one has none of the best performing asset class and is therefore paddling upstream.

              Bonds, some might argue, would perform well. But ... it depends on the quality of credit and the stage of the deflation. Assuming we refer to the best quality credit - Treasuries - we still by definition are in an asset class which is underperforming cash. That is, money is tight and rates are rising. This would characterize the earlier stages of deflation. Later stages would see bonds responding to the market's higher valuation of future cash - that is, rates would be in decline.
              Finster
              ...

              Comment


              • Re: Credit inflation, Deflation: Prechter Interview

                Originally posted by bart
                Some types are and others are looking toppy (like derivatives - the only item on the right hand scale).
                There's a minor down trend in place since early '06 in bank credit, and a much longer one in consumer credit. But real estate credit is still (extraordinarily so in my book) still hanging in there.





                The various interventions this year have been... amazing in their effects. I've blown a number of guesstimates on when we'd top this year... and it has also made me dig and find more missing elements and weightings.
                FWIW, our bartaceous buddy, we are copasetic. The FDI, while inconclusive on the absolute state of credit per se, has been suggesting a moderation in the rate of decline in the market value of the bonar - in turn suggestive of a rate of bonar credit production lesser than, say, a year or two ago...
                Finster
                ...

                Comment


                • Re: Credit inflation, Deflation: Prechter Interview

                  Originally posted by Jim Nickerson

                  Do you want to know what I would find interesting? I would find it highly interesting to know what some of you "heavy-weights" in the financial sense think will be the indicators of the "ka" in EJ's theory (and I write that with serious deference to your knowledge). Probably such has been alluded to already on this board, but I read so much and so little of all I read sticks in my mind. It would be nice to have a thread devoted to signs of impending "ka."

                  as an example, how is "the common reader" to best keep track of such occurring?

                  What other things are you watching, Bart and anyone else who finds EJ's theory tenable?

                  I continue to look at Finster's FDI rate of change graph and for over 3 years that has shown disinflation--which seems to me counter to all the talk of easy credit which I understand to be inflationary.
                  In a very real sense, that's one of the primary purposes of all my charts and site... and unfortunately, there is no "holy grail".

                  In my book, "ka" basically means real disinflation and that means a general and broad concern about the future and debt loads, dropping "liquidity" and effects on main money indicators - just to name a few.

                  The credit rate of change chart is a key one I use, as well as a number of the ones on my Key stats page.
                  There's also my new Intervention page which shows the relative strengths of most of the various behind the scenes work by the Fed and Treasury.


                  Hope that helps...
                  http://www.NowAndTheFuture.com

                  Comment


                  • Re: Credit inflation, Deflation: Prechter Interview

                    Originally posted by Jim Nickerson
                    Yes, I have not lost awareness of that fact, but without doubt your index shows three years of lessening inflation, which I can only imagine to be the case if it ever arrives at being deflation.

                    You didn't weigh in about what things you, the Finster, are watching as signs of Ka-Poom. Note I started a thread on that topic. Is the Finster not concerned? Will asset allocation be protective to deflation if one has no cash in his/her allocation model?
                    One more point, in addition to the above ... take a look at the position of the FDR back in the mid-seventies, say 1974. The rate of inflation had declined substantially (disinflation) from the 1970-1973 surge. Yet the remainder of the decade is when inflation really invaded the public consciousness. So exercise caution before reading any more into the recent readings than is warranted...
                    Finster
                    ...

                    Comment


                    • Re: Credit inflation, Deflation: Prechter Interview

                      Thanks Bart and Finster for your insights; to me they are always worthwhile.

                      If it seems I keep harping on the issue of deflation, it is because it seems to be off the screen so to speak on most people's radars. Don't ask me to quantitate most people, other than it is the almost surely likelihood of inflation about which so many individuals write. It was Prechter's comments that started me on all this, but Finster somewhere said Prechter had been saying the same thing for years if what I remember, perhaps incorrectly, was dismissive of the issue of deflation. Other than Prechter, the only other person who hasn't dismissed that we could get into deflation is Shedlock, with whom EJ is now going to talk and broadcast--that is good and should be interesting. Shedlock added a bit of fuel to the fire with his interview of Kasriel who also doesn't dismiss deflation as a real possibility. Oh, and the hedge fund jock Thiel was another who apparently believes deflation is a real likelihood.

                      You guys know I don't know much, but it seems important to me not to loaded up on PM and commodities if we were to deflate. The notion of Japan bursting and going down as it did for over a decade is frightening. I've been rather much wiped out once and do not have any desire to go through that again.

                      I particularly worry about Finster, whose last asset allocation perhaps back in this tread had no cash, whereas Harry Browne suggested 25%.

                      There is something in me, perhaps you would call it insanity, that makes me very leery when it comes to predicting the outcomes of markets and everyone, or almost everyone is saying mostly the same things of what will be the outcomes. Such "herd" behavior makes me shy away from it. We'll see, it will be interesting.
                      Jim 69 y/o

                      "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

                      Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

                      Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Credit inflation, Deflation: Prechter Interview

                        Originally posted by Jim Nickerson
                        If it seems I keep harping on the issue of deflation, it is because it seems to be off the screen so to speak on most people's radars. Don't ask me to quantitate most people, other than it is the almost surely likelihood of inflation about which so many individuals write. It was Prechter's comments that started me on all this, but Finster somewhere said Prechter had been saying the same thing for years if what I remember, perhaps incorrectly, was dismissive of the issue of deflation. Other than Prechter, the only other person who hasn't dismissed that we could get into deflation is Shedlock, with whom EJ is now going to talk and broadcast--that is good and should be interesting. Shedlock added a bit of fuel to the fire with his interview of Kasriel who also doesn't dismiss deflation as a real possibility. Oh, and the hedge fund jock Thiel was another who apparently believes deflation is a real likelihood.

                        You guys know I don't know much, but it seems important to me not to loaded up on PM and commodities if we were to deflate. The notion of Japan bursting and going down as it did for over a decade is frightening. I've been rather much wiped out once and do not have any desire to go through that again.

                        I particularly worry about Finster, whose last asset allocation perhaps back in this tread had no cash, whereas Harry Browne suggested 25%.

                        There is something in me, perhaps you would call it insanity, that makes me very leery when it comes to predicting the outcomes of markets and everyone, or almost everyone is saying mostly the same things of what will be the outcomes. Such "herd" behavior makes me shy away from it. We'll see, it will be interesting.

                        i don't dismiss the possibility of deflation, i just think it's a lower probability outcome than inflation. you say it's important not to load up on pm's if we're going to deflate, but i disagree because i don't think we can know if we're going to deflate. i think you have to work probabilistically. so look at your overall portfolio- how will it respond to inflation? to deflation? what you'd like is to structure your overall portfolio so that you don't lose significant buying power under ANY scenario, and preferably gain buying power under every scenario. that's what i learned from harry browne.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Credit inflation, Deflation: Prechter Interview

                          Originally posted by Jim Nickerson
                          I particularly worry about Finster, whose last asset allocation perhaps back in this tread had no cash, whereas Harry Browne suggested 25%.
                          True that the allocation I suggested had no explicit cash, but also that it did include an allocation to short term treasuries, a cash-like position. Even Browne suggests using TBills or a Treasury-only money market for this. In addition, recall that we were talking about allocating one's investment portfolio. Most folks, even before they get to the allocation of investment assets, should hold six to twelve months living expenses in savings, as many advisors recommend.

                          Finally, it bears repeating that the term deflation as I use it refers to a rising value of currency. Not of a decline in the value of other things. So even if I held no cash and deflation was in force, I would not be incurring losses, but merely the opportinuity cost of not participating in a bull market in cash. What really kills people in a deflation is debt ... being short a rising asset.
                          Last edited by Finster; December 14, 2006, 10:51 AM.
                          Finster
                          ...

                          Comment


                          • Re: Credit inflation, Deflation: Prechter Interview

                            Originally posted by Jim Nickerson
                            Other than Prechter, the only other person who hasn't dismissed that we could get into deflation is Shedlock, with whom EJ is now going to talk and broadcast--that is good and should be interesting. Shedlock added a bit of fuel to the fire with his interview of Kasriel who also doesn't dismiss deflation as a real possibility.
                            As I recall, even EJ doesn't totally dismiss the possibility of deflation. I believe he's just of the mind that if it does occur. it will be of very short term duration (as in a month or two) and I agree.
                            http://www.NowAndTheFuture.com

                            Comment


                            • Re: Credit inflation, Deflation: Prechter Interview

                              Originally posted by bart
                              As I recall, even EJ doesn't totally dismiss the possibility of deflation. I believe he's just of the mind that if it does occur. it will be of very short term duration (as in a month or two) and I agree.
                              Ditto, Bart. Never say never, but I don't foresee a deflation longer or deeper than the onces we experienced in 1997-1998 and 2000-2001, and lots of folks don't even recognize those as deflations.

                              Plus remember we have that ace deflation-fighter in the helicopter cockpit at the Fed ...
                              Finster
                              ...

                              Comment


                              • Re: Credit inflation, Deflation: Prechter Interview

                                Originally posted by Finster
                                Ditto, Bart. Never say never, but I don't foresee a deflation longer or deeper than the onces we experienced in 1997-1998 and 2000-2001, and lots of folks don't even recognize those as deflations.

                                Plus remember we have that ace deflation-fighter in the helicopter cockpit at the Fed ...




                                By the way, HUGE actions from the Fed & Treasury today.

                                A $13 billion TIO and another $5 billion TIO.
                                A $1.329 billion coupon pass/POMO.
                                A $7.25 4 day and a $9 billion 14 day temp repo.


                                Moon shot attempt likely time on the Dow, etc....
                                http://www.NowAndTheFuture.com

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