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Jack Crooks Calls For Deflation And Long Term Bull Market USD. [wtf]

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  • #31
    Re: Jack Crooks Calls For Deflation And Long Term Bull Market USD. [wtf]

    I get it, Although this US situation "looks" in the surface as what troubled other economies on past times, this time the situation is that US has to shift from service/intellectual rights to re industrialize.

    I could post as an argument that from my perspective, Mexican Economy did have to shift several times between 1970 and today. Until that year, our economy was based on imports substitution industrialization. Point is that over protective regulation let us an uncompetitive industry. On 70's the trend was to nationalize every non performing industry "to protect employment" and to "fulfill social expectations from Mexican Revolution". All that had the bonus of oil wealth discovered in the 70's. That chapter ended in the "ransacked" speech of September 1st 1982, and again we had to shift to market economy as attested by our inclusion first in GATT in 1986-7 and then into all sets of FTA's from the early 90's. We surely became a net Manufactures/Oil exporting economy in the process (how many so called "banana republics" can say that?), but all that hasn't put us socially in a much better position than what we were in the 70's.

    Your analysis points out many details that haven't passed in many heads. That again we will have stagflation in my perspective is out of question, about how it will evolve is something we will have to see, how it will resolve is something that we will have to work out, at least from the particular perspective of each of us.

    Most of the people that come here do so not only to try to fix the world. Many of us want to improve our own future options, and the best informed we get about how things really work, in the case of this forum in the economical front, the better we all can face the perspectives we have.

    As you posted, EJ, the point here is not only to hear the postulates of the master, but to enhance the propositions by the way of the dialog. That's why this forum is better than many. We are open to post our position, and although we may be wrong on some points, on others, the expansion of the perspective that comes from the different backgrounds of the readers and members here is what gives a better base upon which build up our individual thesis.

    Thanks to all to keep the discussion level on this. Future certainly won't be easy, but the flow of commentaries surely can help most of us to face it better.
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    Attention: Electronics Engineer Learning Economics.

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    • #32
      Re: Jack Crooks Calls For Deflation And Long Term Bull Market USD. [wtf]

      Originally posted by EJ View Post
      I'm intrigued by this concept of a "deflation scare." Who's term is it?
      Steve Saville's?

      EJ, would you mind explaining this statement in a little more detail please?

      But based on conversations I have with hedge fund managers now everyone is waiting on the reflation trade this time, so I don't see how it will work again. This is the main reason I have not traded it this time and have suggested that "Ka" and "Poom" are for all practical purposes simultaneous now.
      Last edited by Chris; September 08, 2008, 02:29 AM. Reason: expansion

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      • #33
        Re: Jack Crooks Calls For Deflation And Long Term Bull Market USD. [wtf]

        Originally posted by Chris View Post
        Steve Saville's?

        EJ, would you mind explaining this statement in a little more detail please?
        maybe he missed this? pls post it to the ask ej forum. i'd like to see the answer, too.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Jack Crooks Calls For Deflation And Long Term Bull Market USD. [wtf]

          One thing that I fear more than any economic outcome is a worldwide competitive devaluation of currency and worldwide inflation. We are just beginning to get a taste of this scenario now, but I fear that it could become worse, much worse, given time.

          When I was in the coin business back in 1981, I recall holding ten or eleven sacks of Mexican coin weighing about 300 pounds (136 kilos ) all copper and copper-nickel issues from the 1970s, and I had thought that I would drive from northern California down to Mexico to repatriate the coin. When I purchased the coin, the peso was worth about 1c or 2c U.S, but the value of the old Mexican peso began a swift and unannounced fall.

          I kept watching the coin become worthless---- 300 pounds of coin become almost totally worthless, literally in the matter of a few months. I could not believe it! If I repatriated the coin, the bank in Mexico would have given me about $20 U.S, so I was stuck holding the ten or eleven bags of worthless coin--- coin which was once worth hundreds of dollars and over a matter of months became worth $20.

          Finally, I had a brilliant idea: I phoned a gold smelter, and he bought the coin for its copper and nickel value. I got a cheque for $300 U.S. for the coin, and I recovered my loss. The smelter was happy to get the coin, and I was happy to get the coin out of the trunk of my car.

          This is what I fear could happen someday in the U.S.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Jack Crooks Calls For Deflation And Long Term Bull Market USD. [wtf]

            Originally posted by $#* View Post
            is he actively encouraging the process in order to keep the kindergarten kids hungry and in constant need for buying more sandwiches (treasuries) from him?

            That is my big question....
            That's my take for what it's worth. You have to keep the dollar intact to preserve dollar hegemony. If enough credit is destroyed (debt is defaulted) the demand for dollars keeps increasing. This is happening at a very fast rate so the fed can print at a very fast rate and as long as they stay below the dollar demand thereshold in their new printing, all is well (for them).



            I think EJ and JK are correct, they just agree with out knowing it.

            JK has it down pat when he says the deflation scare is the mechanism that allows the FED to then reflate with abandon. (Can't do it without a scare, inflation would run through the roof, with a deflation scare people are saying "thank GOD" for that FED monetizing everything and finally halting the decline in my home's price). The Fed aquires MORE power and influence each time this happens, unless people get wise ( And I'm not very impressed with "the people" right now).

            The question is will they be FORCED to increase printing faster than the dollar demand threshold allows.

            I think the answer is yes, they can play the "just a couple dollars short game" for a while, even up to the brink of an actual deflation to make sure commodities et-al don't go sky high, but then they can turn on a dime and send out $1,000.... (place your choice of zero's here) stimulus checks to everyone in the US if they had to turn the tide. So as we have discussed before, this is a POLICY decision. Just imagine a statement like " we have cancelled social security for you, but here are all of your paid-in premiums back" (to the tune of $50,000 for a 10 year working slob like myself). Throw in a medicare cancellation refund as well and you are talking another $10,000. Point is, Gubment balance sheets now look AWSOME! (even with the trillions or so of immediate debt this would require. The reduction in future liabilities more that makes up for the present day increase.)


            I get $60,000 that I will promtly use to pay back my debts from the bank for my car or house or credit cards or whatever and there you have it, economic miracle of simultaneous stimulus with balance sheet reduction in unfunded liabilities for the government. (except that the future value of that compensation to me is worth a hell of a lot more than the piddly $60,000 I just got back, esp since I didn't earn a damn dime of interest on it and it has been eroded in value due to inflation). The preceeding is what I gather is the (unstated) republican plan for economic revival. I get to pay off my debts and live free from medicare and social security until I die on the job at the ripe old age of 97 (because my defined benfit plan was already wiped-out, and now, my social safety net is wiped-out too, WOOHOO). Of course they grandfather some of the baby boomers, but not the middle and the trailing end (Fukc the Hippies, republicans get their revenge after all). Where's the cut-off, over 40, good to go, 40 and under, you're screwed. ( They need these people to pump more of their income into the equities market anyway)

            As and added benifit there is a big ongoing stimulus now that everyone who makes less then 97,500 a year gets a cool one-time 15% pay increase due to higher after tax retained earnings (no SS and MEDICARE withholding anymore, remember?.

            Forgot to add that they will make a proviso that this "cancellation refund" is only tax-free if it is used to pay-off documented pre-existing debts.



            Re-attacks welcome.
            Last edited by jtabeb; September 08, 2008, 09:53 PM. Reason: sepllning

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            • #36
              Re: Jack Crooks Calls For Deflation And Long Term Bull Market USD. [wtf]

              Originally posted by jtabeb View Post
              That's my take for what it's worth. You have to keep the dollar intact to preserve dollar hegemony.

              If enough credit is destroyed (debt is defaulted) the demand for dollars keeps increasing. .
              Why? The argument that paying back debt denominated in US$ causes a demand for US$ makes some sense, but the I would appreciate if you could explain how this happens when debt is repudiated/defaulted on?

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Jack Crooks Calls For Deflation And Long Term Bull Market USD. [wtf]

                Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
                Why? The argument that paying back debt denominated in US$ causes a demand for US$ makes some sense, but the I would appreciate if you could explain how this happens when debt is repudiated/defaulted on?
                this could occur by the effect on the value of collateral for other outstanding loans, e.g. the foreclosed home is sold and lowers the market value of other homes in the neighborhood, triggering ltv provisions in helocs; also by its effect on the capital base of lending institutions. e.g. a mortgage is defaulted, impairing the capital base of a bank which must then call in loans to shrink its balance sheet.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Jack Crooks Calls For Deflation And Long Term Bull Market USD. [wtf]

                  Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
                  Why? The argument that paying back debt denominated in US$ causes a demand for US$ makes some sense, but the I would appreciate if you could explain how this happens when debt is repudiated/defaulted on?
                  If I'm peter and you're paul and you owe me 5 dollars and I owe JK 5 dollars, great! If you Default, I still owe JK 5 dollars, and I don't have your income stream anymore. So now, I am forced to sell my assets for dollars to pay JK back, instead of using the 5 dollars you owe me.

                  Simple example, but does that answer your question?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Jack Crooks Calls For Deflation And Long Term Bull Market USD. [wtf]

                    Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
                    I would imagine that the Fed and Treasury would prefer the more orderly, controlled and politically acceptable inflate-away-the-debt option.
                    Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
                    And the idea that overburdened US consumers are in a position to dramatically increase their savings is a dubious proposition, and its a trend the Fed & Treasury will fight with all their considerable large-bore artillary, up to and including the confiscation of savings [such as pension plans] if necessary. Count on it.
                    GRG55,

                    When you say confiscate saving such as pension plans do you mean not honoring federal government pensions or literal confiscation of IRA's and the like?
                    You mention that they use inflation to dig the U.S. out of debt because it's politically safe, but if pensions are taken away I imagine that we'll have boat loads of extremely angry people all over the country. I don't understand how both concepts can hold true unless it's simply a matter of keeping the masses docile until these positions are filled by the next administration.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Jack Crooks Calls For Deflation And Long Term Bull Market USD. [wtf]

                      Originally posted by jtabeb View Post
                      Just imagine a statement like " we have cancelled social security for you, but here are all of your paid-in premiums back" (to the tune of $50,000 for a 10 year working slob like myself). Throw in a medicare cancellation refund as well and you are talking another $10,000. Point is, Gubment balance sheets now look AWSOME! (even with the trillions or so of immediate debt this would require. The reduction in future liabilities more that makes up for the present day increase.)


                      I get $60,000 that I will promtly use to pay back my debts from the bank for my car or house or credit cards or whatever and there you have it, economic miracle of simultaneous stimulus with balance sheet reduction in unfunded liabilities for the government. (except that the future value of that compensation to me is worth a hell of a lot more than the piddly $60,000 I just got back, esp since I didn't earn a damn dime of interest on it and it has been eroded in value due to inflation). The preceeding is what I gather is the (unstated) republican plan for economic revival. I get to pay off my debts and live free from medicare and social security until I die on the job at the ripe old age of 97 (because my defined benfit plan was already wiped-out, and now, my social safety net is wiped-out too, WOOHOO). Of course they grandfather some of the baby boomers, but not the middle and the trailing end (Fukc the Hippies, republicans get their revenge after all). Where's the cut-off, over 40, good to go, 40 and under, you're screwed. ( They need these people to pump more of their income into the equities market anyway)

                      As and added benifit there is a big ongoing stimulus now that everyone who makes less then 97,500 a year gets a cool one-time 15% pay increase due to higher after tax retained earnings (no SS and MEDICARE withholding anymore, remember?.

                      Forgot to add that they will make a proviso that this "cancellation refund" is only tax-free if it is used to pay-off documented pre-existing debts.

                      Re-attacks welcome.
                      Oh man -- sign me the hell up! If it sounds this good to me, it must not be even remotely feasible politically. I wonder how that plan would poll? What fraction of the population is (1) young enough to practically plan for retirement without the entitlement programs, (2) cognizant enough of the demographic problem to see their self-interest, and (3) in an income bracket where elimination of social security and medicare really is in their self-interest. Rather few, I would think.

                      Where did you hear this was the Republican plan? Ever since they added Medicare Part D -- and started babbling that deficits don't matter -- I had sort of assumed they saw more votes in offering goodies today than avoiding insolvency tomorrow.

                      Me, I kind of doubt either the Republicans or Democrats have anything that remotely approaches a plan for dealing with the debt crisis -- I'm talking elected politicians here rather than think tank wonks or appointed bureaucrats. I think that the politicians of both parties (a) are generally not cognizant of the long-term issue, (b) have vague aspirations of "growing" out of the crisis, and (c) differ mainly on where cuts are made and tax policy -- but aren't contemplating anything of the magnitude required to deal with the problem. I suppose that appointed bureaucrats like Paulson or Bernanke may have some sort of general plan -- weaker dollar; monetize debt -- upon which they are executing, but their purvue doesn't extend to political hot potatoes such as the entitlement programs. Am I off base here?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Jack Crooks Calls For Deflation And Long Term Bull Market USD. [wtf]

                        Originally posted by tombat1913 View Post
                        GRG55,

                        When you say confiscate saving such as pension plans do you mean not honoring federal government pensions or literal confiscation of IRA's and the like?
                        You mention that they use inflation to dig the U.S. out of debt because it's politically safe, but if pensions are taken away I imagine that we'll have boat loads of extremely angry people all over the country. I don't understand how both concepts can hold true unless it's simply a matter of keeping the masses docile until these positions are filled by the next administration.
                        The politicians won't actually "take away" your pension. However, most jurisdictions have pension programs (whether public or private) that are governed by some sort of favourable tax legislation (creating an incentive to save for retirement).

                        It is, therefore, well within the realm of possibility that the government can [and at some point likely will] "change the rules". And those changes will go beyond the typical "tinkering" that politicians just can't seem to avoid. My guess is it could come in the form of a requirement to hold certain levels of government debt instruments (Treasuries, etc) in every tax sheltered pension plan. If foreigners no longer wish to buy/hold sufficient quantities of US debt, then the citizens of the USA will be expected to do their duty and will be force marched down that road. If anything like this comes to pass it will be sold using patriotic lingo "for the good of the country", but it will represent defacto confiscation of pension savings by the government for its own purposes.

                        Exchange controls and other similar actions are also indications that things are getting truly desperate within the Beltway. Despite the moaning and groaning going on, things aren't yet that bad. Not even close.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Jack Crooks Calls For Deflation And Long Term Bull Market USD. [wtf]

                          Originally posted by jk View Post
                          this could occur by the effect on the value of collateral for other outstanding loans, e.g. the foreclosed home is sold and lowers the market value of other homes in the neighborhood, triggering ltv provisions in helocs; also by its effect on the capital base of lending institutions. e.g. a mortgage is defaulted, impairing the capital base of a bank which must then call in loans to shrink its balance sheet.
                          Originally posted by jtabeb View Post
                          If I'm peter and you're paul and you owe me 5 dollars and I owe JK 5 dollars, great! If you Default, I still owe JK 5 dollars, and I don't have your income stream anymore. So now, I am forced to sell my assets for dollars to pay JK back, instead of using the 5 dollars you owe me.

                          Simple example, but does that answer your question?
                          Both of you appear to be describing a situation where the default on one debt "forces" the repayment of other debts, which leads to the "synthetic short on the US$" scenario.

                          My point is that defaulting on a US$ denominated debt would not appear to create any direct demand for US$. And therefore jtabeb, if I default on my obligation to you, your decision in turn could just as easily be not to honour your obligation to jk (instead of paying it off as in your example), in which case there is no demand for US$ created, is there?

                          A cascading series of defaults (Bernanke's nightmare, I would bet) should collapse the US$, not cause it to rise. Only by debtors honoring their obligations can the US$ be supported. Is that not the reason we have the US "taxpayer" stepping in to honor the agency debts of what were supposed to be private sector organizations?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Jack Crooks Calls For Deflation And Long Term Bull Market USD. [wtf]

                            Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
                            Both of you appear to be describing a situation where the default on one debt "forces" the repayment of other debts, which leads to the "synthetic short on the US$" scenario.

                            My point is that defaulting on a US$ denominated debt would not appear to create any direct demand for US$. And therefore jtabeb, if I default on my obligation to you, your decision in turn could just as easily be not to honour your obligation to jk (instead of paying it off as in your example), in which case there is no demand for US$ created, is there?

                            A cascading series of defaults (Bernanke's nightmare, I would bet) should collapse the US$, not cause it to rise. Only by debtors honoring their obligations can the US$ be supported. Is that not the reason we have the US "taxpayer" stepping in to honor the agency debts of what were supposed to be private sector organizations?
                            Watching the market, I saw clear deflation until the bailout... we're still in the "ka" phase...

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Jack Crooks Calls For Deflation And Long Term Bull Market USD. [wtf]

                              Originally posted by EJ View Post
                              In my view, Russia is headed for a repeat except starting from a much higher inflation basis. The war in Georgia caused a surge in capital flight; the central bank has had to defend the ruble and is quickly exhausting foreign exchange reserves in the process. Meanwhile, oil and gas prices are falling, reducing the ability of Russia to earn foreign exchange.

                              Russia is set up for a major currency crash. You heard it here first.
                              If they bring back oil to $50 or less it could work or so, I have heard.

                              What was the price of oil in 1998, 10-20 $ ?


                              Governments Buy Gold – and lock it away from private decisions and choice – when they fear other nations. Fear on that scale is never much fun, not even for gold bugs. It would prove less fun again if (or rather, when) the race to hoard government gold turned into an absolute ban on private ownership.

                              It happened to US gold-owners in 1933. Most citizens of the "free" world were barred from owning gold freely, within their domestic borders, until the late 20th century.

                              This driving fear, late in August this year, led the German Bundesbank – owner of the world's second-largest nationalized gold hoard – to reject calls from politicians and newspaper editors in Berlin to sell a portion of its 3,000-tonne stock. They wanted the sales to fund economic stimulus, but "national gold reserves have a confidence and stability-building function," the central-bank answered.

                              More tellingly, "this function has become even more important," the Bundesbank added as Russian tanks rolled into Georgia, "given the geopolitical situation and the risks present in financial market developments." And more telling again, the Gold Bullion held by the Russian central bank grew by more than 50 tonnes in the 12 months to July 2008 – a sudden and sharp increase in its reserves according to official data.

                              The previous half-decade saw Russia's gold reserves shrink by almost 16 tonnes. Even now, gold as proportion of forex reserves sits at just 2.7%. Former president (and current puppet-master) Vladimir Putin set a 10% target in 2006.

                              http://goldnews.bullionvault.com/gol...ales_090820081


                              MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia's central bank has cut its holdings of U.S. agency debt to less than $60 billion this year and may reduce them further, its first deputy chairman, Alexei Ulyukayev, said on Monday.

                              ...


                              At the start of the year Russia held $100 billion -- or over one sixth of its gold and forex reserves -- in Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Federal Home Loan Banks. The holdings have since been reduced by around 40 percent.

                              ...

                              Ulyukayev said as Russia cuts its agencies' debt holdings it invests more in Treasuries, as well as diversifying away from the dollar into yen and Swiss franc. The central bank currently holds about 49 percent of the reserves in dollars.

                              ...

                              Ulyukayev said despite political tensions the central bank still felt comfortable with its investment in U.S. assets.

                              "We feel comfortable but reserve the right to change. We do not see any big risks coming from the U.S. economy," Ulyukayev said.

                              http://www.reuters.com/article/Russi...8?pageNumber=1

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Jack Crooks Calls For Deflation And Long Term Bull Market USD. [wtf]

                                Originally posted by GRG55
                                Exchange controls and other similar actions are also indications that things are getting truly desperate within the Beltway. Despite the moaning and groaning going on, things aren't yet that bad. Not even close.
                                GRG, did you not see the little bit of legislation passed earlier this year?

                                In 2008 the United States Congress enacted the Heroes Earnings Assistance and Relief Tax (HEART) act, which President George W. Bush signed into law. One consequence of this act is that any person that renounces their US citizenship, for example so as not to be burdened with paying US taxes when they no longer live in or receive any benefits from the USA, will have to pay taxes on any unrealized capital gains they had on any property they owned. As the US has a progressive tax regime this would mean the individual would most likely be taxed at the highest possible rate, capital gains realized over a lifetime would be taxed at a lower rate as the amount realized each year would be a smaller amount and the payments would be in the future and therefore worth less due to compounding. In effect the person would have to have to sell a portion of their property before being able to renounce their citizenship.[4]
                                Note that the US is also one of the few nations to tax citizens no matter where they live AND WHERE THEIR INCOME COMES FROM. Thus HEART is a natural combination with this policy and could be said to constitute a form of capital control. After all, why bother holding the money in when the government can get the tax benefit irregardless?

                                Originally posted by D-Mack
                                If they bring back oil to $50 or less it could work or so, I have heard.

                                What was the price of oil in 1998, 10-20 $ ?
                                Yes, if oil goes back to $50/barrel AND STAYS THERE FOR SEVERAL YEARS then Russia could definitely have problems.

                                But I think there would be a lot of other problems popping up in the meantime - think what cheap oil will mean for China and India.

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