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  • Surge in Natural Gas Has Utah Driving Cheaply

    August 30, 2008

    Surge in Natural Gas Has Utah Driving Cheaply

    By CLIFFORD KRAUSS

    SALT LAKE CITY — The best deal on fuel in the country right now might be here in Utah, where people are waiting in lines to pay the equivalent of 87 cents a gallon. Demand is so strong at rush hour that fuel runs low, and some days people can pump only half a tank.

    It is not gasoline they are buying for their cars, but natural gas.

    By an odd confluence of public policy and private initiative, Utah has become the first state in the country to experience broad consumer interest in the idea of running cars on clean natural gas.

    Utahans are hunting the Internet and traveling the country to pick up used natural gas cars at auctions. They are spending thousands of dollars to transform their trucks and sport utility vehicles to run on compressed gas. Some fueling stations that sell it to the public are so busy they frequently run low on pressure, forcing drivers to return before dawn when demand is down.

    It all began when unleaded gasoline rose above $3.25 a gallon last year, and has spiraled into a frenzy in the last few months.

    Ron Brown, Honda’s salesman here for the Civic GX, the only car powered by natural gas made by a major automaker in the country, has sold one out of every four of the 800 cars Honda has made so far this year, and he has a pile of 330 deposit slips in his office, each designating a customer waiting months for a new car.

    “It’s nuts,” Mr. Brown said. “People are buying these cars from me and turning around and selling them as if they were flipping real estate.”

    Advocates for these cars see Mr. Brown’s brisk sales as a sign that natural gas could become the transport fuel of the future, replacing much of the oil the nation imports. While that remains a distant dream, big increases recently in the country’s production of natural gas do raise the possibility of making wider use of the fuel.

    To a degree, it is already starting to happen in Utah, where the cost savings have gotten the public’s attention. Natural gas is especially cheap here, so that people spend about 87 cents for a quantity of gas sufficient to propel a car approximately the same distance as a $3.95 gallon of gasoline.

    The word about natural gas cars has been spreading in news reports and by word of mouth, and so many Utahans are now trying to get their hands on used natural gas vehicles that they are drying up the national supply. Used car lots are stocking up, and beginning to look like county government parking lots with multiple lines of identical white Civic GXs once used in out-of-state fleets.

    Gov. Jon M. Huntsman Jr. got into the act last year, spending $12,000 out of his own pocket to convert his state sport utility vehicle to run on natural gas. “We can create a model that others can look to,” Mr. Huntsman said in an interview. “Every state in America can make this a reality.”

    In fact, some unique factors apply in Utah. Natural gas prices at the pump here are controlled and are the cheapest in the country, while the price of conventional gasoline is one of the highest. Questar Gas, the public utility, has compressed-gas pumps around the state open to the public, a fueling infrastructure that few states can match.

    Special factors or not, the sudden popularity of natural gas vehicles here demonstrates their potential, according to advocates like T. Boone Pickens, the Texas oil billionaire who is financing a national campaign promoting wind power and natural gas to replace imported oil. “Utah shows that the technology is here and the fuel works and the fuel is better than foreign oil,” Mr. Pickens said.

    Natural gas cars produce at least 20 percent less greenhouse gas per mile than regular cars, according to a California study.

    No official figures are available on how many natural gas vehicles Utah has, in part because so many people go to garages that install conversion kits that are not certified by the Environmental Protection Agency and are therefore illegal.

    (Governor Huntsman has expressed concern, and some in the installation business have requested that the E.P.A. close down the unauthorized operations; the agency says it does not comment on possible investigations.)

    But Questar estimates the number at 6,000 and growing by several hundred a month. That is small compared with the 2.7 million vehicles registered in the state, but natural gas executives and state government officials say it makes Utah the fastest-growing market in the country for such cars.

    Cars fueled by compressed natural gas have been available intermittently in the United States for decades, and have found wide use in fleets, but have never attracted much consumer interest. The situation is markedly different abroad. Of the eight million natural gas vehicles operating worldwide, only about 116,000 were in the United States, mostly as fleet vans, buses and cars, according to a 2006 Energy Department estimate.

    Congress mandated the use of fleets capable of using alternative fuel cars for governments and some energy companies in the early 1990s, but public interest petered out as gasoline prices plummeted. Over the years, all the major car companies except Honda dropped their production in the United States.

    The cars have two major disadvantages — a shortage of fueling stations and limited range. (A typical natural gas car goes half as far on a full tank as a gasoline car.) Utah is one of the few states where a driver can travel across the state without being out of range of a station.

    The situation is a Catch-22: Carmakers do not want to make natural gas cars when few filling stations are set up for them, and few stations want to install expensive equipment to compress gas with so few cars on the road.

    Hundreds of stations supply compressed gas in a few states like California, New York and Arizona, but most are either closed to the public or charge only modestly less than regular gasoline prices.

    Retail natural gas prices in some states are triple the price in Utah. The only state that comes close to Utah’s low gas prices is Oklahoma, and a surge of natural gas car buying is going on there, too.

    The natural gas industry and some politicians are pushing to open up the market to gas-powered vehicles across the country. Even in states without fueling stations, a few drivers have switched by spending several thousand dollars to install a home gas compressor.

    A proposal on the ballot in California this fall would allow the state to sell $5 billion in bonds to finance rebates of $2,000 and more to buyers of natural gas vehicles. Legislation has been introduced in Congress to offer more tax credits to producers and consumers and mandate the installation of gas pumps in certain service stations, with the goal of making natural gas cars 10 percent of the nation’s vehicle fleet over the next decade.

    “If the incentives are right and the fuel and cars are available, natural gas can work,” said Gordon Larsen, supervisor for natural gas vehicle operations at Questar Gas. But he said that any drop in gasoline prices douses enthusiasm among drivers considering the switch.

    With gasoline hovering just below $4 a gallon for unleaded regular here, interest in the Salt Lake City area is strong.

    Questar reports that the volume of natural gas pumped at its 21 filling stations is up 240 percent this year from last, after a 50 percent rise in 2007. Demand has grown so fast that the compressors at many of Questar’s stations run low during the day, forcing drivers to settle for half a tank or fill up during off-peak hours.

    The natural gas car surge in Utah is because of several factors. Questar has had filling pumps around the state to fuel its own fleet of service vehicles since the 1980s, and because it had excess capacity, it opened those stations to the public. Natural gas prices are cheap because under Utah regulations, the utility is obliged to offer about half of the gas that it sells to its retail customers at the cost of production.

    The state and a few municipalities are preparing to open more filling stations. If the trend continues, it could eventually lower the environmental impact of driving in Utah.

    For now, demand for compressed-gas cars is outstripping supply.

    “People get into a frenzy and they just have to buy,” said Rick Oliver, owner of a company that converts vehicles. He said that in a recent online auction, a Utah buyer paid $19,000 for a 2001 Civic GX with 50,000 miles — the price a buyer of a new GX would pay after state and federal tax credits.

    Gary Frederickson, a 48-year-old computer technician, has bought six natural gas vehicles on Craigslist over the last year, flying as far as Portland and Oakland to pick up the cars. One 1998 Ford Contour he bought for $3,000 in effect cost him nothing because he will receive a $3,000 state tax credit for buying an alternative fuel car.

    “It’s crazy to be in Utah and have access to 85-cent-a-gallon fuel and not take advantage of it,” he said before a recent 2-cent increase.

  • #2
    Re: Surge in Natural Gas Has Utah Driving Cheaply

    Let's be careful about the eco-nut (junk) accounting again: A tank of natural gas goes half as far as a tank of gasoline. This might imply that the energy in natural gas is less than that in gasoline, comparing gallon equivalent amounts of fuels, so be careful. Also, maintenance with natural gas systems may be much higher than with gasoline, and labour costs are outrageous to-day. Again, be careful.

    Finally, if natural gas catches on as a motor fuel, that might mean pressure on home heating supplys of natural gas. And that would mean that whatever you might save at the filling-station pump for your motor vehicle would be negated by a hike in your natural gas heating bills for your home or office..... Again, be careful.

    Why do you think Toyota and other auto-makers did not proceed to market natural gas motor vehicles?

    And where would you put your gas tanks? You have extra weight lugging gas tanks which eats into fuel economy and cargo space. If you put your gas tanks on the roof of your car, then forget about aero-dynamics; you are going to suck fuel like crazy.

    And what happens in an accident with natural gas systems rigged-up by hillbillies in Utah? I like where they give the E.P.A. and federal regulations their collective finger, but safety considerations need to be thought-out seriously. That means motor vehicle inspections either by the state or the federal government.
    Last edited by Starving Steve; August 30, 2008, 09:24 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Surge in Natural Gas Has Utah Driving Cheaply

      The previous Federal government in Australia introduced a subsidy which amounted to about 40% of the installation costs of an LPG conversion. The scheme worked wonderfully. Gas was very cheap because it was not taxed to the extent that petrol is. As a result we have LPG available virtually everywhere except very low population areas.
      The whole scheme made great sense as, a bit like the US, we have huge supplies of Natural gas but not much oil. Both from an environmental, economic and stategic standpoint the whole thing makes good sense.
      The number of vehicles converted was quite impressive but not as many as one might expect. Some of the factors working against the conversions are those outlined by Steve. Location of Gas tanks in luggage space being one of the major issues.
      Currrently we are basically running a petrol engine on Gas. This leads to some inefficiency of use and the performance and economy of gas powered vehicles could no doubt be improved greatly with a minimum amount of research expenditure. We have a couple of small inventors who have worked on injecting LPG with diesels. This has reduced the cost of running a diesel about 20 to 30 percent. You would think it would be worth considering!!!!!!!!!
      So, what is required is for legislators to actually get off their collective arses and back this thing. Get some research going on the efficiency of use, get a distribution system in place, and then produce cars made to run on gas from the factory with maybe a small petrol tank as a reserve. This ought leave the luggage space intact.
      IT IS NOT EXACTLY PIONEERING!!!!!!!!!! CHEESH! WHAT IOS THE MATTER WITH THOSE WHOSE BLOODY JOB IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE TO RULE US WITH JUST A SMALL AMOUNT OF WISDOM.
      In Austrtalia, the new GREEN Govt has upped the taxes on LPG so that the difference of economy of use compared to petrol and diesel has been minimised. i understand the conversion subsidy is to be withdrawn...GREAT THINKING!!!!!! This is in a nation with one of the most far flung transportation and one of the worst CAD's in the whole damned world!!

      I've taken on Jim's idea. Instead of sending all these sociopaths to rule us that we have now, send a few real psychopaths to really clean the place out a bit.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Surge in Natural Gas Has Utah Driving Cheaply

        Originally posted by The Outback Oracle View Post
        The previous Federal government in Australia introduced a subsidy which amounted to about 40% of the installation costs of an LPG conversion. The scheme worked wonderfully. Gas was very cheap because it was not taxed to the extent that petrol is. As a result we have LPG available virtually everywhere except very low population areas.
        The whole scheme made great sense as, a bit like the US, we have huge supplies of Natural gas but not much oil. Both from an environmental, economic and stategic standpoint the whole thing makes good sense.
        The number of vehicles converted was quite impressive but not as many as one might expect. Some of the factors working against the conversions are those outlined by Steve. Location of Gas tanks in luggage space being one of the major issues.
        Currrently we are basically running a petrol engine on Gas. This leads to some inefficiency of use and the performance and economy of gas powered vehicles could no doubt be improved greatly with a minimum amount of research expenditure. We have a couple of small inventors who have worked on injecting LPG with diesels. This has reduced the cost of running a diesel about 20 to 30 percent. You would think it would be worth considering!!!!!!!!!
        So, what is required is for legislators to actually get off their collective arses and back this thing. Get some research going on the efficiency of use, get a distribution system in place, and then produce cars made to run on gas from the factory with maybe a small petrol tank as a reserve. This ought leave the luggage space intact.
        IT IS NOT EXACTLY PIONEERING!!!!!!!!!! CHEESH! WHAT IOS THE MATTER WITH THOSE WHOSE BLOODY JOB IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE TO RULE US WITH JUST A SMALL AMOUNT OF WISDOM.
        In Austrtalia, the new GREEN Govt has upped the taxes on LPG so that the difference of economy of use compared to petrol and diesel has been minimised. i understand the conversion subsidy is to be withdrawn...GREAT THINKING!!!!!! This is in a nation with one of the most far flung transportation and one of the worst CAD's in the whole damned world!!

        I've taken on Jim's idea. Instead of sending all these sociopaths to rule us that we have now, send a few real psychopaths to really clean the place out a bit.

        Outlback,

        If you have the jawbone of an ass, then get it, and set about to do it.
        Jim 69 y/o

        "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

        Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

        Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Surge in Natural Gas Has Utah Driving Cheaply

          Originally posted by The Outback Oracle View Post
          The previous Federal government in Australia introduced a subsidy which amounted to about 40% of the installation costs of an LPG conversion. The scheme worked wonderfully. Gas was very cheap because it was not taxed to the extent that petrol is. As a result we have LPG available virtually everywhere except very low population areas.
          The whole scheme made great sense as, a bit like the US, we have huge supplies of Natural gas but not much oil. Both from an environmental, economic and stategic standpoint the whole thing makes good sense.
          The number of vehicles converted was quite impressive but not as many as one might expect. Some of the factors working against the conversions are those outlined by Steve. Location of Gas tanks in luggage space being one of the major issues.
          Currrently we are basically running a petrol engine on Gas. This leads to some inefficiency of use and the performance and economy of gas powered vehicles could no doubt be improved greatly with a minimum amount of research expenditure. We have a couple of small inventors who have worked on injecting LPG with diesels. This has reduced the cost of running a diesel about 20 to 30 percent. You would think it would be worth considering!!!!!!!!!
          So, what is required is for legislators to actually get off their collective arses and back this thing. Get some research going on the efficiency of use, get a distribution system in place, and then produce cars made to run on gas from the factory with maybe a small petrol tank as a reserve. This ought leave the luggage space intact.
          IT IS NOT EXACTLY PIONEERING!!!!!!!!!! CHEESH! WHAT IOS THE MATTER WITH THOSE WHOSE BLOODY JOB IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE TO RULE US WITH JUST A SMALL AMOUNT OF WISDOM.
          In Austrtalia, the new GREEN Govt has upped the taxes on LPG so that the difference of economy of use compared to petrol and diesel has been minimised. i understand the conversion subsidy is to be withdrawn...GREAT THINKING!!!!!! This is in a nation with one of the most far flung transportation and one of the worst CAD's in the whole damned world!!

          I've taken on Jim's idea. Instead of sending all these sociopaths to rule us that we have now, send a few real psychopaths to really clean the place out a bit.
          The above two posts [Steve and Outback] point out something that folks should keep in mind reading about "natural gas vehicles". Compressed natural gas (CNG) and liquified petroleum gas (LPG) powered vehicles are not quite the same thing, although the media will refer to both [correctly] as "natural gas powered vehicles".

          The vapour pressure of propane (the LPG component most often used as a vehicle fuel) is only 93 pounds per square inch at 60 degrees F, and therefore a relatively light pressure vessel fuel tank can carry a reasonably concentrated liquid propane fuel alternative to gasoline (although the energy content of propane per gallon is less than gasoline, thus moderately reducing the available mpg...as Steve points out). LPG vehicle fuel is quite popular in some jurisdictions like Italy, which imports quite a bit of propane from North Africa [Egypt, Libya, Algeria] for that purpose.

          CNG on the other hand, which is primarily methane gas, for all practical purposes cannot be liquified at typical ambient temperatures (it takes significant amounts of cooling, as well as pressure, to change methane to a liquid phase). CNG vehicles are using a fuel stored in gaseous form, which means a significant reduction in the maximum on-board energy the vehicle can carry compared to gasoline or LPG/propane. In addition, the pressures are higher than required for LPG/propane, which means the fuel tanks tend to be heavier, further cutting into the fuel economy of the vehicle [this has been partially addressed by using spiral-wound composite filament tanks, but these are expensive compared to steel). The primary benefit of using methane is lower emissions [primarily unburned hydrocarbon/NOx/CO2] per unit of energy released from burning the fuel - anyone who has spent time in New Delhi periodically over the past decade will have witnessed a real life example of this benefit.

          As Steve and Outback both noted, the economics depends in large part on the lower cost of the fuel offsetting the conversion cost of the vehicle. Some years ago General Motors marketed propane/gasoline dual-fuel vehicles, as it actually takes very little modification of the engine to run on either. [In a "previous life" long ago] I had a crew fleet of 25 vehicles running on propane. Only real problem is that a pure propane vehicle won't start in the cold Canadian [or northern USA] winter. The vapourizers use water jacket heat to convert the LPG to a gas before combustion. My operators took to pouring boiling water from a kettle over the vapourizer to get their trucks started on cold mornings. We switched the vehicles to dual fuel, starting them using gasoline. Not likely a problem in Australia I suspect...

          From an investment standpoint [anticipating Jim's always valid question], the historical market clearing use for global LPG is petrochemical feedstocks [the petchem companies swap their steam cracker feedstock between naptha and LPG, depending on what is cheaper at the moment, thus keeping a ceiling on global LPG prices]. If "limits to hydrocarbons" ever creates the perception, or the reality, of a shortage of "cheap" conventional liquid transportation fuel, LPG & natural gas should end up being re-priced upward as a ready alternative transport fuel. The imposition of carbon taxes on vehicle fuels will also favour natural gas over crude based gasolines and diesel [Provided the policy is applied uniformly without distortion...always a problem when it comes to vote-pandering politicians. For example, our Loyal Canadian Opposition Party, trying its best to emulate Kyoto Kevin Rudd and the Aussie Labor Party, has announced a "green" carbon tax election platform...that exempts gasoline] Ultimately anti-carbon policies in the USA and Canada should benefit those companies holding natural gas reserves (I am still biased to those companies holding reserves physically in continental North America, where natural gas prices continue to be extraordinarily depressed on an energy equivalent to crude oil basis).

          Question for Outback: Why did the new Aussie government, touting its green credentials, raise the price of the lower carbon fuel alternative? Seems inconsistent with their election platform??? :confused:
          Last edited by GRG55; August 31, 2008, 11:17 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Surge in Natural Gas Has Utah Driving Cheaply

            Originally posted by The Outback Oracle View Post
            ...We have a couple of small inventors who have worked on injecting LPG with diesels. This has reduced the cost of running a diesel about 20 to 30 percent. You would think it would be worth considering!!!!!!!!!...
            I've not heard about the mixing of LPG with diesel fuels. I am highly sceptical of the claims of 20% - 30% improvement using LPG since the lower flammability limits of paraffins (such as methane or propane) are only marginally below that of gasoline or diesel; as are the lower flammability limits of aromatics (benzene) and alcohols (methanol).

            But it is well known that the lower flammability limit of hydrogen is far below that of all of the hydrocarbon fuels and therefore injecting a very small amount of hydrogen into a hydrocarbon fuel [diesel, gasoline, LPG or methane] mix measurably changes the the combustion characteristics and allows the use of very lean mixtures. There are numerous SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) research papers on this topic.

            Some of the earliest research into this was done years ago [late 1970's] under NASA sponsorship at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California (there's that American inventiveness again ;)). In laboratory conditions the JPL was able to successfully run Otto-cycle (spark ignition) engines at an astounding 0.53 equivalence ratio and lower [equivalence ratio is the fuel/air ratio of the hydrogen enriched "ultra-lean" laboratory mixture divided by the fuel/air ratio required for stoichiometric combustion of gasoline]. It's not known if the little old lady with the "brand new shiny red Super Stock Dodge" took advantage of any of this local knowledge.

            The impediment to widespread use of this fairly simple technology seems to be sourcing the hydrogen. In a lab a bottle source can be used easily...in the real world it gets expensive to keep refilling it. However, there are a few companies trying to commercialize on-board hydrogen generators for diesel fleets, using either a bit of the hydrocarbon fuel or water as the H2 source. Unfortunately none, that I am aware of, seems to have made any major inroads compared to the gargantuan national and global installed fleet of hydrocarbon fueled vehicles.

            IMO this type of well understood, retro-fittable type of technology makes a lot more sense than all the hullabaloo surrounding hybrids, ethanol, "Volts" and so forth. Maybe it's just not sexy enough to attract Washington subsidies and VC/Wall Street attention?
            Last edited by GRG55; August 31, 2008, 11:11 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Surge in Natural Gas Has Utah Driving Cheaply

              Question for Outback: Why did the new Aussie government, touting its green credentials, raise the price of the lower carbon fuel alternative? Seems inconsistent with their election platform???

              Crikey GRG!!!! You know how to get a man riled up!!! From any viewpoint making LPG relatively cheaper makes good sense. How the f..k would I know how a politician thinks?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Surge in Natural Gas Has Utah Driving Cheaply

                Originally posted by The Outback Oracle View Post
                Question for Outback: Why did the new Aussie government, touting its green credentials, raise the price of the lower carbon fuel alternative? Seems inconsistent with their election platform???

                Crikey GRG!!!! You know how to get a man riled up!!! From any viewpoint making LPG relatively cheaper makes good sense. How the f..k would I know how a politician thinks?
                Okay mate, let me rephrase the question...What excuse did the Rudd government use to justify raising the price of the low carbon fuel when their whole damn campaign platform seemed [to this outsider] to be based on signing Kyoto and cutting CO2 emissions?

                Do they think that transportation of any kind (other than their own ministerial jets heading to the next UN sponsored climate change gabfest) is "bad" and therefore it should all be taxed into extinction? Or are they running out of tax room and desperate to raise revenue from activities that are difficult to curtail in a land as large and vast as Australia?

                Apologies if I riled you up. Certainly not my intent. I enjoy your posts with a "Down Under" perspective, particularly your invaluable first-hand knowledge and observations of what's happening with China inflation, manufacturing situation, etc.
                Last edited by GRG55; August 31, 2008, 08:29 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Surge in Natural Gas Has Utah Driving Cheaply

                  Sorry!! There is a huge problem here. Maybe the US is the same. Everyone is totally out of touch with reality (bar the farmers I guess). The taxes on petrol and diesel are enormous so the tax on LPG was just done under the guise of levelling the playing field. Just an excuse to raise more tax to waste! Don't get me wrong. As far as I am concerned, the price of "OIL" way undervalues the resource so I'm not totally opposed to imposing taxes on its use. If the money was put towards research into Energy conservation and building infrastructure to cope with a very expensive "Oil" future, paying farmers to grow trees to fix Carbon, the whole exercise would be good. Bottles of Coca Cola and water are still more expensive than Petrol!!!!!! Cheesh!!!!!

                  Noone has any idea the mess this country is in. It's a real true blue fool's paradise. By selling the country off at the fastest rate possible, it looks like we are doing OK so Governments can pretty well run amok with stupid policies and have done so for about 40 odd years.
                  The "Green" credentials of the ALP Government are currently being tested. Of course, in the run-up to the elections, the pollies forgot to mention the fact that all these Carbon taxes were going to cost!!! Sign Kyoto! Show we are as sophisticated as all those super-sophisticated Europeans! It was really just an appealing intellectual idea. So people voted for them to be green but since Bruce and Sheila Public have learned it is going to hit their own pocket fairly hard their has been more than a small swing against the Government.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Surge in Natural Gas Has Utah Driving Cheaply

                    Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
                    Okay mate, let me rephrase the question...What excuse did the Rudd government use to justify raising the price of the low carbon fuel when their whole damn campaign platform seemed [to this outsider] to be based on signing Kyoto and cutting CO2 emissions?

                    Do they think that transportation of any kind (other than their own ministerial jets heading to the next UN sponsored climate change gabfest) is "bad" and therefore it should all be taxed into extinction? Or are they running out of tax room and desperate to raise revenue from activities that are difficult to curtail in a land as large and vast as Australia?

                    Apologies if I riled you up. Certainly not my intent. I enjoy your posts with a "Down Under" perspective, particularly your invaluable first-hand knowledge and observations of what's happening with China inflation, manufacturing situation, etc.
                    Re riled...I jest! Questions re the motives of politicians are bound to raise the hackles of anyone in Itulip I'd have thought.
                    They're not running out of tax room...I don't think! There has been something of a move to curtail spending by the current lot. For this they deserve credit. The previous conservative Howard Govt bought one election and tried to buy a second in a disgraceful irresponsible way. The problem here is the public (and media) are so short-sighted that the current lot are getting the blame for the current difficulties. They have been in power 6 months!!! It's taken 50 bloody years to get to this point!
                    Anyway I guess they are thinking....fuel...tax it!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Surge in Natural Gas Has Utah Driving Cheaply

                      I'll look into the claims re LPG and diesel injection.

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