Russians Sending A Message to Europe...

[GRG55]

Re: Russians Sending A Message to Europe...

Which invasion are you speaking of? In fact, Kosovans had UN passports after the violation of Yugoslavian sovereignty.

These UN passports were handed out in 1999.

You should note that South Ossetia - not being recognized by Georgia - meant that those living there could not get Georgian passports.

However, any former citizen of the Soviet Union was eligible to ask for a Russian passport up to 4 years after the fall of the USSR.

Thus do you REALLY think no one in South Ossetia or Abkhazia had any passports up until this year? Because I can damn well guarantee Georgia wasn't granting them.

Sure, you can point to Hitler's invasions as an example. But neither in Czechoslovakia, nor in Poland, nor in the Sudetenland were any of Hitler's early incursions in support of regions which had been militarily and governmentally autonomous from their supposed countries for FIFTEEN years.

So it is more than a little foolish to equate the Putin's behavior in Georgia with Hitler's straight invasion of sovereign nations.

In fact, on the grand scale of things, the UN's interference in sovereign Yugoslavian affairs is far closer to Hitler's unilateral violations of sovereignty than Putin's enforcement of one and a half decades of de-facto secession.

This is what Putin had alluded to when he warned the UN and the US about unilaterally splitting Kosovo off from Serbia.

Sure, Putin supported those regions just as certain nations in Europe supported the South in the American Civil War.

But I'm still confused why it was ok for the US to support secessionist states in South Korea, Vietnam, and Kosovo, but it is not ok for Russia to support secessionist states in South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Both Hanoi and Pyongyang were the national capitals for Vietnam and Korea, respectively prior to the splits of those two nations.

Of course, if you leave behind the Mom and Apple Pie crap and just view all of this as a naked power struggle, it is much easier to understand.

A United Nations passport? Let's be serious...

"...This proposal deals with initiating a United Nations Passport which would be available to every person on earth through the various governments of all countries. Basically this passport would be a commemorative document expressing recognition of the unity of mankind via the ideal of the United Nations..."

[Supercilious]

Re: Russians Sending A Message to Europe...

Of course, if you leave behind the Mom and Apple Pie crap and just view all of this as a naked power struggle, it is much easier to understand.

c1ue please leave behind the soviet propaganda bull!&t your MVD drinking buddies are spoonfeeding you. If you want to believe the "truth" of Russia Today that's fine, but I don't have to take it. I'm neither an idiot nor on Putin's payroll.

Please stop distorting and twisting the facts and stop serving Putin's lies as valid arguments.

For a starter Russia doesn't have any moral ground to support the secession of Abkhazia and South Ossetia after what they did in Chechnya.

Which invasion are you speaking of? In fact, Kosovans had UN passports after the violation of Yugoslavian sovereignty.

These UN passports were handed out in 1999.

Stop the BS. The UN passports were issued by UNIMIK after the end of the Kosova war and during the war for the refugees outside of Kosova that were evacuated to other countries. And those were UN passports not US or EU passports.

The Russians started issuing Russian passports before the invasion of Georgia and after that they have claimed they had to protect (the newly aquired) Russian citizens. That's a Sudetenland trick.

You should note that South Ossetia - not being recognized by Georgia - meant that those living there could not get Georgian passports.

That is a lie. The "authorities" in Tsinkvali could not issue georgian passports, but ossetians could obtain georgian passports and some ossetians did. That is a fact.
Read here about the Russian passport scam:
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click...0247324C633608

Because I can damn well guarantee Georgia wasn't granting them.

Your guarantees are as hollow and pathetic as Putin's lies. In 1995 the South Ossetian authorities had issued a "citizenship law" under which double nationality was allowed. The "separatists" were trying to prevent their own people to take georgian passports.

Sure, you can point to Hitler's invasions as an example. But neither in Czechoslovakia, nor in Poland, nor in the Sudetenland were any of Hitler's early incursions in support of regions which had been militarily and governmentally autonomous from their supposed countries for FIFTEEN years.

That is a monumental load of BS. The "authonomy" was maintained only by the Russian "peacekeepers" (occupation forces) and "volunteers". And its the trademark of soviet expansionism and territorial acquisition by force, in the same way they did with Poland, Czechoslovakia and Finland.

So it is more than a little foolish to equate the Putin's behavior in Georgia with Hitler's straight invasion of sovereign nations.

If you can say that with a straight face maybe you should seek employment with Russia Today

In fact, on the grand scale of things, the UN's interference in sovereign Yugoslavian affairs is far closer to Hitler's unilateral violations of sovereignty than Putin's enforcement of one and a half decades of de-facto secession.

That is getting pathetic tavarisch polkovnik. There is a big difference between UN and Russia if you didn't know. In Georgia we are not talking about a UN intervention, but a Russian occupation of a small neighboring country under the clear intent of territorial annexation. Read here about Adjaria to see what the "autonomy" and the Russian 145th Motor Rifle Division was about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjara

This is what Putin had alluded to when he warned the UN and the US about unilaterally splitting Kosovo off from Serbia.

You forgot to add: Slava Putin!!! Slava Putin!!! Slava Putin!!!
You need more vigor comrade if you want to be successful in your ideological education of those imperialistic corrupt and rotten capitalist from so called "free world".

But I'm still confused why it was ok for the US to support secessionist states in South Korea, Vietnam, and Kosovo, but it is not ok for Russia to support secessionist states in South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
Both Hanoi and Pyongyang were the national capitals for Vietnam and Korea, respectively prior to the splits of those two nations.

You forgot to add to your list the secessionist Federal Republic of Germany ( Berlin was the national capital of Germany before the split). That imperialistic capitalist rotten puppet state (FRG) prevented the unification of the German people and prevented a large number of german proletarians to participate in building the bright communist future with the brotherly help provided by the Great Soviet Union .... Gimme a break.

c1ue if you are genuinely clueless and uninformed because of a Putinist hangover after drinking too much votka with your MVD friends, you can get better information of the Russian invasion of Georgia from here:

The Truth About Russia in Georgia

[c1ue]

Re: Russians Sending A Message to Europe...

I like how your commentary is from a part of the Georgian government, backed up by some dude in Montana who is supposedly neutral.

How about these videos of Georgians in tanks and motorized infantry vehicles gunning up the Ossetian landscape?

http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-ski...ideo/#more-675

And of course, we all know how much Putin loves the Exile - so much so that the Exile felt compelled to move to Panama.

And I love how well positioned the end of the interview is: That Russia 'won' the propaganda war and was the one that really started the whole affair.

Sorry, but even here in the US that 'truth' is being acknowledged as false although the first headlines all uniformly read differently.

Or are you saying that George Friedman and Stratfor - that bastion of Putin glorification - is also a puppet of Russia? The Christian Science Monitor? Der Spiegel?

And of course Thomas Goltz must be a neutral source - except for this:

Enter Thomas Goltz, aka "Tommy the Turk" ("The Mail," 1/24). Unlike Kaylan, Thomas Goltz is the real thing. A professional Armenian genocide denier, that is. Well-known in the international community as "Tommy the Turk," Goltz is a hired gun of Turkish and Azeri interest groups whose job is to be the "neutral non-Turkish" voice of reason in the mainstream press to anyone who will listen.

http://www.nypress.com/print.cfm?content_id=3570

Funny, here he's called a professional at denying the Armenian holocaust by the Turks; from there he started his 'objective' reporting on Chechnya et al.

Some of his own words:

http://www.turkishcoalition.org/media/goltz_ms.pdf

I also note this supposed objective review of the situation failed to note the joint Georgian-American exercise that happened at the same time frame as the Russian one.

Very nice PR spin attempt though.

Try reading something more objective like the Der Spiegel overview of the Russia Georgia conflict timeline.

For a starter Russia doesn't have any moral ground to support the secession of Abkhazia and South Ossetia after what they did in Chechnya.

Moral? I'm not sure what morality has to do with this. Are you saying the US invading Iraq is a moral question? :eek:

For that matter, what is the morality of Guantanamo Bay? Using Turks to interrogate prisoners? etc etc?

Stick to something a little more factual vs. emotional.

Stop the BS. The UN passports were issued by UNIMIK after the end of the Kosova war and during the war for the refugees outside of Kosova that were evacuated to other countries. And those were UN passports not US or EU passports.

Oh yes, that the UN issues the passports makes everything great. For the UN has the right to supercede the sovereignty of anyone they feel like.

Actually, normally they do not. But just for Kosovo, this was changed.

http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/u...overeignty.htm

A United Nations University study of NATO 's intervention in Kosovo said Monday a profound change in world politics has emerged, mainly that sovereignty can be forfeited on humanitarian grounds.

Also the "UN" when bombing various parts of Serbia, curiously seemed to consist mostly of American and British planes. I'm pretty sure there weren't any from the Head of the UN's home country of Ghana.

Very nice propaganda cover though - unfortunately not replicable for Iraq due to the EU's discomfort arising from events in Yugoslavia/Kosovo.

That is a lie. The "authorities" in Tsinkvali could not issue georgian passports, but ossetians could obtain georgian passports and some ossetians did. That is a fact.

Sure, if you pretended to be a loyal Georgian, you could get a passport. But since the Ossetians and Abkhaz were shooting at the Georgians (and being shot at), I'm quite confident no passports were exchanged between shooting sessions.

As for passport scams - how about this one:

http://kosovo.birn.eu.com/en/1/51/1783/

"For 300 euro I can get you all the documents in one day," said Sajo, a former policeman in Kosovo and now based in Rozaje, in Montenegro. "All at once - birth certificate, citizenship papers, ID and passport."

All I can see from you is a complete unwillingness to recognize that, maybe, Georgia wasn't all goodness and light.

I've said many times that what has transpired in Georgia consists of bad things done by both sides, but your opinion seems to be that only Russia has done bad things.

If you can only respond by attacking me personally rather than examining the evidence, that is merely an expression of your own inadequacy.

Please continue to cleave to the party line.

[Supercilious]

Re: Russians Sending A Message to Europe...

Comrade c1ue there are some serious deficiencies in performing your work to correctly inform the decadent western capitalist on the ideologically correct truth as magnificently set by the great leader Vladimir Putin.

ITulip is not Pravda or Russia Today. Vigorous character exposure of retrograde agents of the bourgeoisie is not merely enough to convince the decadent citizens of the west to align themselves with the dialectic materialist truth.

You need facts if you want to make a successful counterargument, and every fact stated in "The truth about Russia in Georgia" can be independently verified by a simple Google search ( of course Google is another reactionary tool devised by the enemies of the russian people in order to discredit and tarnish the wisdom and vision of Vladimir Vladimirovich )

For example is good that you haven't continued to press on the reactionary support of the western imperialists for the secessionist German state ( Federal Republic of Germany) or for the secessionist and rotten South Korean reactionaries.

Just continue to pretend you are under attack for presenting the official position of the russian government, but don't try to accuse westerners and americans for being .... well ... westerners and americans. It doesn't work and you can't send your MVD buddies to teach them a lesson

Now talking seriously ....

Russia lost the cold war.... The Soviet Union Collapsed . This whole thing in Georgia plus the Russian "pacifying presence" in Transdnester, Karabah, threats against the Baltic states, Poland and Ukraine are a huge political blunder made by the siloviki cleptocracy ( I know now you will say that Putin and siloviki are good for Russia :rolleyes: but give me a break)

Look what happened to TNK BP. The siloviki are trying to steal the western investment (and probably they will succeed), but the average russian will pay for that as they paid for the deeds of the Yeltsin cleptocracy.

I have talked recently to a few of my russian friends ( who are living in Russia not in exile, but it's also true they are not MVD or FSB) and they are very concerned with what Putin is doing and the long term effects for Russia of his military adventure.

Let's face it. It's almost 99% Obama wins the elections. His foreign policy advisers are Bzrezinski, Scowcroft, Perry and Albright. I hope you understand what that means...

Actually I'm not sure that the West is interested in hard pressuring Putin to get the hell out of Georgia before Obama gets in the White House.;)

Meanwhile in the financial sector the brown matter is slowly approaching the rotating parts of the air circulation device:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7600784.stm

After further falls on Friday, the Russian stock market has plunged more than 30% since the country's invasion of Georgia last month.
Investor confidence has been hit hard by the conflict.
Some international banks estimating that between up to $20bn (Ł11bn)in foreign capital has been pulled out of Russia in the last month alone.
Since the invasion the value of the rouble has slumped, reportedly leading to the central bank stepping in.
So whereas Russia may have got away with a slap on the wrist from Europe for its invasion, Moscow is being punished much more directly by international investors.

Meanwhile russian propaganda is just unnlaoding a bunch of BS (c1ueless BS I might say ):
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5...lZG3azMzMf1eXQ

Investments in the bonds of struggling US home-loan financers Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have earned Russia more than a billion dollars in the past six months, press reports said Tuesday."The bonds in which we have invested have not incurred losses but instead have made us more than a billion dollars in the last six months," Russian Finance Minister Alexei Kudrin was quoted as saying by Ria Novosti news agency.
The report gave no further details nor an explanation of how the investment had been able to produce a return worth some 670 million euros at a time when Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac shares have tumbled on concerns they will have to be bailed out by the US government as a result of the US subprime home-loan collapse.
Subprime home loans, often offered at initially low rates of interest which later rose sharply, began to go sour in the middle of last year, leading to billions of dollars of losses for banks and other investment groups which had bought them.

Yeah right ...maybe it's some miracle made by Baba Vanga ... gimme a break ... I'm not an idiot to believe such bulls!)t !!!

[c1ue]

Re: Russians Sending A Message to Europe...

You are so well informed that you seem to have missed the fact that the TNK-BP dispute is now resolved.

http://ukpress.google.com/article/AL...wadfLGCMZWniHQ

BP and the oligarch shareholders have reached an agreement over a new corporate structure for the company, which will see Robert Dudley, the BP-appointed chief executive, replaced with a Russian-speaking executive by the end of the year.

The terms, which are due to be finalised in the coming months, also maintain BP's 50% shareholding and include the appointment of three new independent directors. The parties will also investigate the merits of an international listing for the firm.

TNK-BP's chairman Mikhail Fridman, who previously called for Mr Dudley's resignation, said: "By agreeing to enhance the system of corporate governance of TNK-BP and enabling the company to compete on the international stage, we are beginning an exciting new chapter in the development of a great company."

Fridman = the big oligarch in the Alfa group.

Putin = big oligarch in the Gazprom group.

Fridman <> Putin

As for your Russian friends - it is funny how your Russian friends don't seem concerned over Russia's perception of US encirclement via Poland, Georgia, Ukraine, etc.

Their attitude is 180 degrees opposite to even the Georgians I know living in St. Petersburg - and that's after these friend's home turf Adjaria was run over by Saakashvili.

Were I Russian, I'd ask whether these friends are Jewish. But I personally am completely non-discriminatory.

Sure, Putin and his buds have made money with Russia's resurgence.

But that doesn't mean squat in the international front.

Your baseless and completely erroneous assumptions continue to mount.

Please predict some more so I'll know what WON'T happen.

As for Brzezinski and Scowcroft - yep - the Tri-Lateral Commission strikes again.

It will be interesting to see how many more foreign adventures can be had with the US, UK, and Japanese economies all sinking. And Japan re-orienting to include China as a partner instead of just the US.

Europe has yet to adopt the US demands for economic sanctions against Russia - perhaps something about having Russia RIGHT THERE makes a cooler headed consideration more important?

Sure, Russia is throwing around more weight than it can back up, but on the other hand so is the US.

Of course, you haven't explained how Obama will be so different if he continues Bush and Cheney's encirclement policy against Russia.

Right up there with Obama's stimulus plan: Bush's, but bigger?

[GRG55]

Re: Russians Sending A Message to...CANADA

Nice to see our Arctic neighbours haven't forgotten about us in the frenzy to waggle their fingers at Europe, the USA, Israel, and so forth. We were feeling a bit left out... :rolleyes:

BTW, the comment that Canada is likely to suffer some sort of natural gas shortage is laughable. Not even in Quebec. I will predict that this terminal will be delayed, delayed again and then likely cancelled as uneconomic.

Gazprom warns Canada over Rabaska LNG project

Mon Sep 8, 2008 12:34pm BST
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Gazprom warned Canada that Russia could easily find an alternative market for its liquefied natural gas (LNG) if the Canadian authorities try to hinder a deal over the Rabaska LNG project.

Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper said last month commercial natural gas deals with Russia could be put at risk because of Russia's military action in Georgia...

[ASH]

Re: Russians Sending A Message to Europe...

How? Where? Was Georgia allied to Russia? What do you mean?

Recently we have seen what an alliance with the USA entails if you are a neighbor to Russia.

I was refering to the Warsaw Pact, and the treatment of Russian satellite states during the Cold War. That is also the context in which I see US military power having supported Western European sovereignty. I probably shouldn't have said "recent". However, since I was writing about European defense spending, both those Cold War factors seem germane, since the pattern of European and American military posture today is derived pretty much directly from the Cold War.

I agree with the sentiment of your second paragraph, but I would replace the word "alliance" with "friendship". The US was pushing for Georgian membership in NATO, and had been providing military aid, but there were no security guarantees in place.

Just to be clear, I don't think pushing NATO toward Russia's borders -- and America's encouragement of Georgia -- is a good policy. I wasn't especially keen on the West's intervention in Kosovo.

"Duelling hypocrisy" is a game the US always loses, because of the fanciful idealistic packaging required to sell foreign policy for domestic consumption. Therefore, I'm not consciously engaging in any moral arguments here. What I am doing is describing some of the real world reasons for the comparative military weakness of Western Europe, and some of their motivations for participating with the US in NATO. If you dispute that US military power has broadly safeguarded Western European sovereignty, providing a self-interested motive for NATO membership, then the burden is upon you to explain why NATO formed and persists.

[D-Mack]

Re: Russians Sending A Message to Europe...

As for Brzezinski and Scowcroft - yep - the Tri-Lateral Commission strikes again.

He certainly has some inside knowledge, talking about Georgia in June

Zbigniew Brzezinski: ''Russia tends to destabilize Georgia''

Russia attempts to destabilize situation in Georgia to take control over the Baku-Ceyhan pipeline, passing via Georgia, claims former adviser for US president in Jimmy Carter's administration, famous US political scientist Zbigniew Brzezinski.

He said the United States witnessed "cases of possible threats by Russia, addressed to Georgia, in fact, motivated not by some territorial disputes, though Russia and Georgia really have territorial disputes, but caused by intention to take control over the Baku-Ceyhan pipeline".

"If Georgia government is destabilized, western access to Baku, Caspian Sea and further will be limited", said Bzhezinski during the hearings in the US Senate Thursday.

http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/cont...798_print.html

edit:

I haven't read his books, but I don't know how he wants to destroy Russia. With what, how?

Vladimir Putin, President of Russia: “You talk about public opinion. Public opinion in Russia is in favor of increasing our security. Where did you get a public opinion that we should fully disarm and then, according to some theoreticians, such as Brzezinski, divide our territory into three or four states? If there is such a public opinion, I would disagree with it.” (June 4, 2007, in an interview with foreign journalists).

http://www.kommersant.com/p869470/U....ign_relations/

[c1ue]

Re: Russians Sending A Message to Europe...

He certainly has some inside knowledge, talking about Georgia in June

Brzezinski was a consultant to Amoco when he wrote his book talking about pipelines from Central Asia.

The power struggle going on in the region is completely obvious given B's book as context.

[GRG55]

Re: Russians Sending A Message to Europe...

Opec plans closer links with Russia to control half of the world’s oil supplies



From The Times

September 11, 2008

Robin Pagnamenta and Angela Jameson



A top-level delegation from Opec will travel to Moscow next month to forge closer ties between the oil producers’ cartel and Russia.

Speaking at a meeting of Opec oil ministers in Vienna, Abdullah al-Badri, the group’s secretary-general, said that he and other officials would hold a joint workshop with the Russians on global oil supply, demand and market issues. Russia already attends Opec meetings as an observer and was represented this week by Igor Sechin, the Deputy Prime Minister, who said that the Moscow talks would focus on “global energy security” matters and ensuring stable prices.

“Opec is one of Russia’s key partners on the global oil market,” Mr Sechin said. “It is very important for us to create mechanisms of regular dialogue.” He said that Russia had already presented Opec with a draft memorandum of understanding including a variety of proposals.

The prospect of closer ties between Opec, whose 13 member states produce 40 per cent of the world’s oil, and Russia, the world’s second-biggest producer after Saudi Arabia, will alarm consumer countries.

Together, Opec and Russia would produce about half of the world’s oil, giving them even greater control over prices if they chose to collaborate.



Mr Badri sought to soothe concerns that the dialogue would have harmful consequences for consumer countries. “I don’t think our co-operation with Russia will affect the consumer because as far as we are concerned we are trying to encourage dialogue between producers and consumers,” he said.

Oil prices rallied briefly yesterday but dropped back below $100 after Opec said that it would stick to its existing production quota of 28.8 million barrels per day while calling on members to more rigidly adhere to their individual targets. Such a step, if observed, would amount to a reduction of about 520,000 barrels per day.

This is because some members are producing more than they are supposed to under agreed Opec targets.

October Brent crude fell $1.41 to $98.93 a barrel on the ICE Futures exchange yesterday after falling through $100 per barrel on Tuesday night for the first time since April.