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schiff scenario + inflation/deflation debate, or can "it" [deflation] happen here?

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  • schiff scenario + inflation/deflation debate, or can "it" [deflation] happen here?

    you might notice this title is stolen from ben bernanke's famous helicopter speech.

    quotes from bernanke's speech are at the bottom of this note. to summarize, he said that if need be the fed can buy not only tbills, but longer dated tbonds [putting a lid on long term interest rates], gse paper, commercial paper [indirectly via banks], and foreign gov't debt, as well as monetizing a tax cut which would be "essentially equivalent to Milton Friedman's famous 'helicopter drop' of money."

    my recent comments on the peter schiff interview [see http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...=2955#post2955 ] led me to thinking of a different deflationary scenario. i had thought that if a deflationary scenario unfolded slowly, then the fed's interventions along the lines described by bernanke would indeed produce inflation instead. [see the discussion http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=417 ]

    but we live in a global economy. schiff's scenario postulates a foreign pick-up in consumption, even as overall global demand is reduced by a severe recession in the u.s. but china's economy is also at risk, not only because of its dependence on exports to the u.s., but also because of enormous mal-investments in both state-owned enterprises and in redundant fdi-based production capacity. thus a slowdown/recession in the u.s. risks triggering a chinese recession.

    in this circumstance the fed's interventions will have to be sufficient to revive both the u.s. and chinese economies. or, more likely, the pboc will be engaging in similar stimulative actions, while the chinese gov't and the u.s. gov't both pursue fiscal stimulus. it seems to me that this would be a dicey matter of getting both the timing and the quantity of interventions right.

    in this scenario the dollar might well strengthen, even in the face of u.s. economic weakness, and u.s. rates drop across the yield curve, because of global capital seeking the political and legal safety of u.s. markets.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------



    from bernanke's famous speech, available at:
    http://www.federalreserve.gov/boardD...21/default.htm

    Quote:
    So what then might the Fed do if its target interest rate, the overnight federal funds rate, fell to zero? One relatively straightforward extension of current procedures would be to try to stimulate spending by lowering rates further out along the Treasury term structure--that is, rates on government bonds of longer maturities.9 There are at least two ways of bringing down longer-term rates, which are complementary and could be employed separately or in combination. One approach, similar to an action taken in the past couple of years by the Bank of Japan, would be for the Fed to commit to holding the overnight rate at zero for some specified period. Because long-term interest rates represent averages of current and expected future short-term rates, plus a term premium, a commitment to keep short-term rates at zero for some time--if it were credible--would induce a decline in longer-term rates. A more direct method, which I personally prefer, would be for the Fed to begin announcing explicit ceilings for yields on longer-maturity Treasury debt (say, bonds maturing within the next two years). The Fed could enforce these interest-rate ceilings by committing to make unlimited purchases of securities up to two years from maturity at prices consistent with the targeted yields. If this program were successful, not only would yields on medium-term Treasury securities fall, but (because of links operating through expectations of future interest rates) yields on longer-term public and private debt (such as mortgages) would likely fall as well.

    Lower rates over the maturity spectrum of public and private securities should strengthen aggregate demand in the usual ways and thus help to end deflation. Of course, if operating in relatively short-dated Treasury debt proved insufficient, the Fed could also attempt to cap yields of Treasury securities at still longer maturities, say three to six years. Yet another option would be for the Fed to use its existing authority to operate in the markets for agency debt (for example, mortgage-backed securities issued by Ginnie Mae, the Government National Mortgage Association).


    Quote:
    To repeat, I suspect that operating on rates on longer-term Treasuries would provide sufficient leverage for the Fed to achieve its goals in most plausible scenarios. If lowering yields on longer-dated Treasury securities proved insufficient to restart spending, however, the Fed might next consider attempting to influence directly the yields on privately issued securities. Unlike some central banks, and barring changes to current law, the Fed is relatively restricted in its ability to buy private securities directly.12 However, the Fed does have broad powers to lend to the private sector indirectly via banks, through the discount window.13 Therefore a second policy option, complementary to operating in the markets for Treasury and agency debt, would be for the Fed to offer fixed-term loans to banks at low or zero interest, with a wide range of private assets (including, among others, corporate bonds, commercial paper, bank loans, and mortgages) deemed eligible as collateral.14 For example, the Fed might make 90-day or 180-day zero-interest loans to banks, taking corporate commercial paper of the same maturity as collateral. Pursued aggressively, such a program could significantly reduce liquidity and term premiums on the assets used as collateral. Reductions in these premiums would lower the cost of capital both to banks and the nonbank private sector, over and above the beneficial effect already conferred by lower interest rates on government securities.15

    The Fed can inject money into the economy in still other ways. For example, the Fed has the authority to buy foreign government debt, as well as domestic government debt. Potentially, this class of assets offers huge scope for Fed operations, as the quantity of foreign assets eligible for purchase by the Fed is several times the stock of U.S. government debt.16




    and
    Quote:
    Although a policy of intervening to affect the exchange value of the dollar is nowhere on the horizon today, it's worth noting that there have been times when exchange rate policy has been an effective weapon against deflation. A striking example from U.S. history is Franklin Roosevelt's 40 percent devaluation of the dollar against gold in 1933-34, enforced by a program of gold purchases and domestic money creation. The devaluation and the rapid increase in money supply it permitted ended the U.S. deflation remarkably quickly. Indeed, consumer price inflation in the United States, year on year, went from -10.3 percent in 1932 to -5.1 percent in 1933 to 3.4 percent in 1934.17 The economy grew strongly, and by the way, 1934 was one of the best years of the century for the stock market. If nothing else, the episode illustrates that monetary actions can have powerful effects on the economy, even when the nominal interest rate is at or near zero, as was the case at the time of Roosevelt's devaluation.




    and the famous "helicopter" passage, making it clear that bernanke did not coin the concept

    Each of the policy options I have discussed so far involves the Fed's acting on its own. In practice, the effectiveness of anti-deflation policy could be significantly enhanced by cooperation between the monetary and fiscal authorities. A broad-based tax cut, for example, accommodated by a program of open-market purchases to alleviate any tendency for interest rates to increase, would almost certainly be an effective stimulant to consumption and hence to prices. Even if households decided not to increase consumption but instead re-balanced their portfolios by using their extra cash to acquire real and financial assets, the resulting increase in asset values would lower the cost of capital and improve the balance sheet positions of potential borrowers. A money-financed tax cut is essentially equivalent to Milton Friedman's famous "helicopter drop" of money.18
    Last edited by jk; September 17, 2006, 09:54 AM.

  • #2
    Re: schiff scenario + inflation/deflation debate, or can "it" [deflation] happen here

    I agree ... good point.

    To be honest, I don't think schiff is right ... however, he presents the gold bug / bearish side in the most compelling way I have yet to see.

    I disagree with him on a number of issues, and your point is a good one.

    Other points: why invest in gold but not real estate? I see both gold and real estate as inflation hedges and I personally prefer real estate. I think anyone who is short on one but long on the other is missing the point.

    The bond rally isn't necessarily because people don't see inflation. It could be because they simply think that is the only place they can earn reliable interest on their money. Just because your'e making less than inflation doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad investment.

    I remember buffet once offered negative rate bonds, simply because he felt that people would prefer the save haven that he could provide.

    Also, I'm not entirely schiff is seeing the full picture when it comes to US investment in production. I think that's occuring .... just not in the US but it is happening by US multi nationals. So who's getting rich? Certainly not joe six pack, but I think outsourced US multi nationals may have a good future ahead of them.

    I really felt inspired by what he said though, because he seems to have a strong grasp of economics but is not caught up in the monetary illusions at all and is sticking to the story of *real* wealth creation.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: schiff scenario + inflation/deflation debate, or can "it" [deflation] happen here

      But, yeah, I agree. The risk of a US dollar meltdown is small. China is neat, but it is still a fascist state.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: schiff scenario + inflation/deflation debate, or can "it" [deflation] happen here

        Originally posted by blazespinnaker
        Other points: why invest in gold but not real estate? I see both gold and real estate as inflation hedges and I personally prefer real estate. I think anyone who is short on one but long on the other is missing the point.
        schiff specifically recommends foreign commercial reits for both asset value and foreign income stream. domestic residential will not be a good inflation hedge because it's already been pumped up and is too dependent on leverage/credit.

        Originally posted by blazespinnaker
        Also, I'm not entirely schiff is seeing the full picture when it comes to US investment in production. I think that's occuring .... just not in the US but it is happening by US multi nationals. So who's getting rich? Certainly not joe six pack, but I think outsourced US multi nationals may have a good future ahead of them.
        this point is the same as gave-kal's in describing platform companies. e.g. would you rather manufacture ipods and make about 1% or design and market ipods and make 30%? this might be good for at least some u.s. based multinationals - think catepillar for example - but not good enough for the u.s. economy. if apple, for example, can manufacture its ipods in, say, malaysia and sell them elsewhere in asia or europe then, yes, their corporate income may look good. but that doesn't do joe sixpack any good.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: schiff scenario + inflation/deflation debate, or can "it" [deflation] happen here

          Originally posted by blazespinnaker

          To be honest, I don't think schiff is right ... however, he presents the gold bug / bearish side in the most compelling way I have yet to see.
          why do you disagree with schiff? can you be specific?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: schiff scenario + inflation/deflation debate, or can "it" [deflation] happen here

            Originally posted by jk
            why do you disagree with schiff? can you be specific?
            Well for one, I'm not entirely sure that the world can survive a recession in the US economy. I think everyone would rather see a soft landing and China, et all, are going to try to make that happen ... a bumpy ride for the the US would likely translate into a bumpy ride for the rest of the world.

            I'm bullish on real estate, and i think there is a lot of upside. I think the problem we see here is more excessive price extrapolation than any real bubble. A correction is very likely, but fundamentally, real estate is a sound investment and likely always will be (unless bird flu / war / nbc terrorism / or whatever happens). The world is massively getting wealthier, and that wealth has to go somewhere - and it's RE.

            I think he's rushing to judgement on the americans You guys aren't really so lazy. You run the worlds multinationals, and I think he's missing out on that fact. Your advanced capitalistic system is pretty much running the world in a lot of ways. True, joe six pack has probably been shopping a little too much lately and is in for a world of pain, but the US is still a great country.

            What I see as a more likely scenario is not so much the US will be a have not, and china will be a have, but rather the whole world will become one nation and there will be be a massive class division which will be global. The rich americans will be clubbing with the rich chinese and the rich saudis and the rich indians etc etc.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: schiff scenario + inflation/deflation debate, or can "it" [deflation] happen here

              Originally posted by blazespinnaker
              I think he's rushing to judgement on the americans You guys aren't really so lazy. You run the worlds multinationals, and I think he's missing out on that fact. Your advanced capitalistic system is pretty much running the world in a lot of ways. True, joe six pack has probably been shopping a little too much lately and is in for a world of pain, but the US is still a great country.
              There is a tendency in some quarters to be down on anything American, and we have to be leery of rushing to judgment. But there are some major liabilities that have to be considered. Literally - the liabilities the US has built up in recent years.

              Our biggest problems are the legacies of the Greenspan Fed and the globalist free trade lobby. The former fomented a stock bubble and the latter has left us with a tax system that penalizes domestic producers. Then the former tried to buy our way out of the bursting of the stock bubble with easy money money policies that stimulated domestic consumption, leaving us with whopping trade imbalances.

              Yes, it's a great country, but that owes a lot to individualism and freedom; its central planners are no better than anyone else's.
              Finster
              ...

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: schiff scenario + inflation/deflation debate, or can "it" [deflation] happen here

                globalist free trade lobby
                Without the globalist free trade lobby the US (and everyone) would be in a world of pain .. pun intended.

                Everything relies on globalism. Every increase in wealth you have seen over the last 40 years has 90% relied on globalisation. Without, we'd be nothing.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: schiff scenario + inflation/deflation debate, or can "it" [deflation] happen here

                  Originally posted by blazespinnaker
                  Without the globalist free trade lobby the US (and everyone) would be in a world of pain .. pun intended.

                  Everything relies on globalism. Every increase in wealth you have seen over the last 40 years has 90% relied on globalisation. Without, we'd be nothing.
                  What we have been seeing, however, is a highly perverted push towards free trade that only concerns itself with trade that happens to cross an international border. Trade within the US, meanwhile, has not gotten freer, and has probably become less free. Something bought from overseas is subject to far less tax and regulation than something bought from the guy across the street. Put a 27% income tax on a US worker's production, and it's just paying his fair share, but the same tax if applied to something coming from China is deemed "punitive".

                  The net result has been that the US has been buying energy and consumer goods from other countries by trading its seed corn. Twenty years ago, the US was a creditor nation - and after twenty years of globalist policies, is now it is more deeply in debt than any nation in history.

                  This is what all that supposedly wonderful globalism has wrought. Now you said yourself that:

                  Originally posted by blazespinnaker
                  Well for one, I'm not entirely sure that the world can survive a recession in the US economy.
                  How do you square that with your view that globalism is so great for the world economy?
                  Last edited by Finster; September 20, 2006, 05:29 PM.
                  Finster
                  ...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: schiff scenario + inflation/deflation debate, or can "it" [deflation] happen here

                    Originally posted by Finster
                    What we have been seeing, however, is a highly perverted push towards free trade that only concerns itself with trade that happens to cross an international border. Trade within the US, meanwhile, has not gotten freer, and has probably become less free. Something bought from overseas is subject to far less tax and regulation than something bought from the guy across the street. Put a 27% income tax on a US worker's production, and it's just paying his fair share, but the same tax if applied to something coming from China is deemed "punitive".
                    This is a great point. Perhaps a push needs to be made to equalise trade so that the government can not apply any more rules locally then they apply afar. Or, at least, a timetable to get that point.

                    How do you square that with your view that globalism is so great for the world economy?
                    Nothing is perfect, but seriously, aren't we all big fans of Adam Smith here? Come on... the wealth of nations, folks. Globalisation has its problems that need addressing, life is not perfect, but life without globalisation would be scary indeed.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: schiff scenario + inflation/deflation debate, or can "it" [deflation] happen here

                      Originally posted by Finster
                      What we have been seeing, however, is a highly perverted push towards free trade that only concerns itself with trade that happens to cross an international border. Trade within the US, meanwhile, has not gotten freer, and has probably become less free. Something bought from overseas is subject to far less tax and regulation than something bought from the guy across the street. Put a 27% income tax on a US worker's production, and it's just paying his fair share, but the same tax if applied to something coming from China is deemed "punitive".
                      maybe i'm being dense, but i don't see how taxing the wages of an american worker interferes with trade within our country. yes, in some fashion it becomes a cost for the producer, but every producer has costs, some for material inputs, some for labor, etc. although you say the tax is put on the worker's production, it is in fact levied on his wages. but either way it's just a cost for the producer.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: schiff scenario + inflation/deflation debate, or can "it" [deflation] happen here

                        Originally posted by jk
                        maybe i'm being dense, but i don't see how taxing the wages of an american worker interferes with trade within our country. yes, in some fashion it becomes a cost for the producer, but every producer has costs, some for material inputs, some for labor, etc. although you say the tax is put on the worker's production, it is in fact levied on his wages. but either way it's just a cost for the producer.
                        Okay, for the sake of argument let's go with your assumption that a 27% tax on domestic production is not an interference or burden on trade. Then what is the objection to placing a similar tax on imported production?
                        Last edited by Finster; September 21, 2006, 05:45 PM.
                        Finster
                        ...

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