Spain:- Lights out/Speed limts cut!

[Andreuccio]

Re: Spain:- Lights out/Speed limts cut!

Driving 70MPH for most of the way from Watsonville, Cal. to Victoria, B.C. I burned exactly $90 US in fuel, for a distance driven of 1000 miles. Here in the Victoria area, I drive 18miles round-trip between Langford and East Sooke, and my cost is $3.50 for the round-trip.

My car is a Toyota Echo. Fuel costs are $1.419 per litre in Victoria, and in the U.S. early in July, the fuel costs averaged around $4.399 per US gallon.... You do the math.

Remember, my speeds were 70MPH coming up to Victoria, and my speeds here in the Victoria area for my round-trip to get groceries are 32MPH to 38MPH with one stretch of road at 50MPH. I do not warm my car up before driving it, and I coast as much as possible. In delayed traffic, I shut the engine off immediately. I try to accelerate as little as possible, and I drive in the highest gear possible without severely lugging the engine.

My quick mental calculation is something like 30 MPG in Victoria, and something like 42 MPG on the trip. But you do the math.

The poor gas mileage in Victoria I attibute to three things: 1.) Ethanol is in the gas in BC to satisfy the eco-nuts, and ethanol has less energy in it as a fuel than does gasoline; 2.) The automatic choke makes short trips fuel inefficient; 3.) The low speeds demanded by the eco-nuts in BC are fuel inefficient.

Steve,

No disrespect, man, but this is about as scientific as your previous use of the temperature at one place in San Francisco to disprove global warming.

My own experience, FWIW: I drive an Escape Hybrid. I use the onboard computer to check my mileage for various driving conditions. I average about 30 overall. On the highway, I'll average mid 30's (going 60-65), unless I drop my speed to 55 and maintain it there. I can get as high as 43.

Short trips around town: 18.

My experience: short trips are much less efficient, 55 is better (at least for gas mileage) than higher speeds.

Of course, YMMV.

[Guest]

Re: Spain:- Lights out/Speed limts cut!

Dude you gotta go "downmarket" and get a turbodiesel Jetta. 35 MPG city, gunning it all you please, with the AC blasting and having neglected to check the tire pressure in the past six months. On the freeway? Try 47 MPG, also with the AC blasting if you like. Of course the Escape is a nice looking mini-SUV and the Jetta is a peon's car, but I tell you, you quickly forget the cost of refueling. A full tank goes a loooong way. The stationwagon model even looks marginally "respectable".

P.S. - I do believe that Catherine Austin Fitts is visiting with us this afternoon. Everybody please remember to be on your best behavior (and try to post intelligent comments - unlike my goofy one above. Actually I'm the antithesis of a car-nut. I am bored by cars. Honest.).

[Andreuccio]

Re: Spain:- Lights out/Speed limts cut!

Dude you gotta go "downmarket" and get a turbodiesel Jetta. 35 MPG city, gunning it all you please, with the AC blasting and having neglected to check the tire pressure in the past six months.

Nice. I'd consider it, but I've got two little ones. Carseat, frequent trips to Costco for diapers and milk by the case, the whole nine yards. The Escape was actually a replacement for a Grand Cherokee that was getting about 17 (when I drove), or 12, (when my wife drove.) I'm overjoyed with the Escape.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Spain:- Lights out/Speed limts cut!

Steve,

No disrespect, man, but this is about as scientific as your previous use of the temperature at one place in San Francisco to disprove global warming.

My own experience, FWIW: I drive an Escape Hybrid. I use the onboard computer to check my mileage for various driving conditions. I average about 30 overall. On the highway, I'll average mid 30's (going 60-65), unless I drop my speed to 55 and maintain it there. I can get as high as 43.

Short trips around town: 18.

My experience: short trips are much less efficient, 55 is better (at least for gas mileage) than higher speeds.

Of course, YMMV.

I do have a few hills enroute between East Sooke and Langford. Beside the ethanol that the eco-nuts have put into the gas, it may be the hills that are causing my poor gas mileage. I live on a steep grade about 500 feet up from the sea, so this may be one major reason for 26 or 27 MPG in an Echo.

As for scientific approaches to climatology, what better approach is there than to study temperature data observed outside of cities and away from buildings? If there is global warming, the long-term mean averages of the temperature data would show this, but they do not--- at least not at SFO.

Honolulu Int'l Airport is running much above normal this year in their mean monthly temperatures, but this may be due to their severe drought this year. When their drought ends, I would assume their monthly temperatures would revert back to their long-term mean. I will keep observing to see if this happens.

Honolulu's climate data is posted at: www.prh.noaa.gov/hnl/ . Once there, click CLIMATE LOCAL and then bubble the Honolulu Int'l Airport on the right and "monthly statistics" on the left.

[Guest]

Re: Spain:- Lights out/Speed limts cut!

Andreuccio - You ought to know better than to mess wth Starving Steve on Global Warming. He will gnaw at your ankles like an enraged yorkshire terrier on steroids if you have the temerity to venture into this topic. I learned my lesson. Don't ever argue with Starving Steve about global warming as he will wear you down to a mere shadow of your former self. Bedraggled, trouser legs shredded by the mad terrier beast, cast out of your own home due to the constant fracas, tin cup in hand at the street corner, with a carboard placard strapped to your back which reads EXECUTE THE ECO-FRAUDS! And the local Po-lice department then has to haul you in for "incitement to disturb the peace" and so forth. What a headache. Yes and that's another thing you must never talk about in Steve's presence. "ECO-FRAUDS". He will go from calm to irate in three seconds flat if you use the prefix "ECO" anywhere, this terrier has a personality disorder which kicks in whenever he hears the sound "ECO-FRIENDLY", or "ECO-LOGICAL" or if you really want to piss him off big-time then start making noises like you want to attend a Malibu beach party sponsored by Hollywood Celebrities staging a protest against offshore oil drilling. That will get you some truly rabid reactions.

[Brooks Gracie]

Re: Spain:- Lights out/Speed limts cut!

Why so many people are worried about global warming now just astonishes me. Almost all of the climatologists concur that the damage, if any, won't be a material cause of ecological planetary changes for another 100 years. In 100 years we will likely lack the ability to pollute, as all our fossil fuels will surely be gone by then.

And the cost of mitigation boggles the mind, financial and with respect to human living standards.

[phirang]

Re: Spain:- Lights out/Speed limts cut!

Why so many people are worried about global warming now just astonishes me. Almost all of the climatologists concur that the damage, if any, won't be a material cause of ecological planetary changes for another 100 years. In 100 years we will likely lack the ability to pollute, as all our fossil fuels will surely be gone by then.

And the cost of mitigation boggles the mind, financial and with respect to human living standards.

Costs 25E/ton to mitigate carbon, according to the ETS.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Spain:- Lights out/Speed limts cut!

Just when China and India are developing and their standard of living is going up, just when people there are getting cars and are about to enjoy the good life, the eco-frauds here in the Western World make a big issue of carbon footprints and CO2 emissions.... Doesn't that smack at a kind modern racism to you?

The CO2 emissions used to be hushed-up, and no-one knew what a carbon footprint was just a couple years ago.... But now that Chindia is the economic centre of the world, everything has changed, and the environmentalists are running wild in the West proclaiming the end of the world with global warming.:rolleyes:

[renewable]

Re: Spain:- Lights out/Speed limts cut!

Renewable,

Read the full blog.

The reason it is interesting is that it looks directly at the source of a lot of people's belief in the man made global warming hypothesis - several specific lines of assertion as well as the IPCC paper.

Note that the blogs don't dispute that CO2 has gone up, what is being discussed is exactly what the scientific basis is behind the thinking that CO2 is the cause of the warming.

I have posted other links showing how a few point sources of data - notably Hansen at the NASA Goddard institute - have been changing (I personally say manipulating) the core data sets to exxagerate the temperature records.

Sure, there are lots of scientists involved in this research, but the blog ALSO specifically points out that the IPCC conclusions on man-made global warming are not from a consensus of all 2,500 scientists, but from a specific subset.

I've skimmed through it (he doesn't do himself any favours will the ALLCAPS CRACKPOT intro). It's interesting, but i'm not a climate scientist so can't really comment on his points - that's the whole reason of having other scientists peer review papers - you can have some faith in the content.

The comments on the WG1 of the IPCC seem particularly weak - he doesn't even link the article he's quoting as far as I can see! I'm sure that the certainty involved with teh science is somewhat exaggerated, but I find some random non-peer reviewed word document entirely unconvincing.

The site he's involved with http://icecap.us seems slightly less crackpot, but I still can't find a published peer reviewed paper that refutes the warming thesis - which would be worth reading.

[JayS]

Re: Spain:- Lights out/Speed limts cut!

Here is some logic for you: 0=0. 2 x 0 = 0. In other words, 37 parts per 100,000 has no measureable effect ...

Is this your logic?
Since:
a) 2x0 = 0
Then:
b) 2x37 = 0 ???

I believe you're trying to diminish the effect of such a small qty (37 parts per whatever other large number). I would counter that small qty's can be relevant. Harmfull mercury levels in fish are anything over 1 ppm per our FDA. The WHO sets a 50ppm human limit. Etc.

I don't take issue with your larger argument. Just this math

[Starving Steve]

Re: Spain:- Lights out/Speed limts cut!

Is this your logic?
Since:
a) 2x0 = 0
Then:
b) 2x37 = 0 ???

I believe you're trying to diminish the effect of such a small qty (37 parts per whatever other large number). I would counter that small qty's can be relevant. Harmfull mercury levels in fish are anything over 1 ppm per our FDA. The WHO sets a 50ppm human limit. Etc.

I don't take issue with your larger argument. Just this math

No-one knows what the threshold level of CO2 is in the atmosphere before global warming begins, or if global warming begins with the first molecule of CO2 and the effect grows linearly with more CO2 after that. This is a big unknown, and environmentalists should not pretend that they know.

Suffice to say, the level of CO2 on Venus is something like 300,000 PPM whereas the level on Earth is 55 PPM, give or take. A doubling of CO2 on Earth in 100 years would mean 110 PPM from all sources both natural and anthropogenic.

Compare the number 110 to 300,000. Would you risk the close-down of all industry on Earth and have carbon police, carbon accountants, carbon taxers, carbon bankers, carbon negotiaters, carbon traders, carbon planners, carbon committees, carbon impact reports, carbon exchanges (as in Montreal now!) for a risk of 110PPM in 100 years.?

"Am I reading this right, or what?" The answer to me is obvious: There is no issue with CO2, and the plants love CO2 too.

And then we get to mercury as a so-called danger at 1PPM. The eco-frauds have put out warnings about catching fish in the dams around San Jose, California because of so-called mercury contamination.

When I went to middle school in San Jose back in the early 1960s, the kids used to bring quicksilver in pails from the mine at New Almaden, and we used to play with the quicksilver in school. The Hg would be spilled all over the floors of the classroom.... No-one ever got sick. No-one's life span was cut short. The hazmet decontamination squad was never called in.... To-day, one single bead of Hg on the floor, and the school is evacuated. The hazmet unit is called in and arrives in space-suits.:rolleyes:

[c1ue]

Re: Spain:- Lights out/Speed limts cut!

The site he's involved with http://icecap.us seems slightly less crackpot, but I still can't find a published peer reviewed paper that refutes the warming thesis - which would be worth reading.

R,

You realize the inconsistency you are displaying by relying on 'peer review' while reading iTulip?

After all, our peers are all saying that there is no problem with the financial system, that all is well in the world.

When I went to middle school in San Jose back in the early 1960s, the kids used to bring quicksilver in pails from the mine at New Almaden, and we used to play with the quicksilver in school. The Hg would be spilled all over the floors of the classroom.... No-one ever got sick. No-one's life span was cut short. The hazmet decontamination squad was never called in....

Steve,

The mercury thing explains a lot...

;)

Just kidding!

[renewable]

Re: Spain:- Lights out/Speed limts cut!

R,

You realize the inconsistency you are displaying by relying on 'peer review' while reading iTulip?

After all, our peers are all saying that there is no problem with the financial system, that all is well in the world.

I see your point, but I see economics as more of an art, and climate modelling as more of a science.

I respect the contributors on itulip (It would be presumptive to describe you lot as my peers) as I respect climate scientists, a few of whom I have met (although nobody on the IPCC AFAIK) and seem entirely genuine.

Having said that, after your comments & links on this thread, I am open to the idea that climate projections are more 'lent on' that I had previously thought. I still find the core thesis compelling, though...

[JayS]

Re: Spain:- Lights out/Speed limts cut!

No-one knows what the threshold level of CO2 is in the atmosphere before global warming begins, or if global warming begins with the first molecule of CO2 and the effect grows linearly with more CO2 after that. This is a big unknown, and environmentalists should not pretend that they know.

Agreed - but this can in no way lead one to conclude that 2x37 = 0. Because a) that's mathematically flawed, and b) such rhetoric implies that you know what concentration of atmospheric CO2 is significant (more specifically, that you know 37 is not significant), the same mistake you accuse environmentalists of making.

My issue is with the fragment of your argument that I quoted initially, where you stated "here is some logic for you". If you had instead said "rhetoric", I'd have no argument. You're conclusions are really all ampliative inferences. You recount a number of real-life situations which you employ as justification for your inference. The more real-life examples you have, the more they amplify your inference. Hence, "ampliative inference". Given increasing examples, we can make claims whose probability of being true is greater. We all do this consciously and unconsciously.

However, no matter how much evidence you have, it will never logically entail a conclusion. A logically valid conclusion is always true, given true premises and valid argument structure. Because inferences are deductively invalid, their utility in a logical argument is diminished. Their utility as a rhetorical device is not diminished.

This is not to discount the importance of making inferences - we make make decisions all the time based on incomplete data and inferences. To do otherwise would reduce us to inaction. Whether an inference is sufficiently rigorous is a personal call. Be we aught not call it logic.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Spain:- Lights out/Speed limts cut!

Agreed - but this can in no way lead one to conclude that 2x37 = 0. Because a) that's mathematically flawed, and b) such rhetoric implies that you know what concentration of atmospheric CO2 is significant (more specifically, that you know 37 is not significant), the same mistake you accuse environmentalists of making.

My issue is with the fragment of your argument that I quoted initially, where you stated "here is some logic for you". If you had instead said "rhetoric", I'd have no argument. You're conclusions are really all ampliative inferences. You recount a number of real-life situations which you employ as justification for your inference. The more real-life examples you have, the more they amplify your inference. Hence, "ampliative inference". Given increasing examples, we can make claims whose probability of being true is greater. We all do this consciously and unconsciously.

However, no matter how much evidence you have, it will never logically entail a conclusion. A logically valid conclusion is always true, given true premises and valid argument structure. Because inferences are deductively invalid, their utility in a logical argument is diminished. Their utility as a rhetorical device is not diminished.

This is not to discount the importance of making inferences - we make make decisions all the time based on incomplete data and inferences. To do otherwise would reduce us to inaction. Whether an inference is sufficiently rigorous is a personal call. Be we aught not call it logic.

Thirty-seven PPM CO2 is significant only to the carbon cops and people like that--- people who want to make it their business to monitor carbon output. So, now we have the Canadian Climate Exchange in Winnipeg and the Montreal Climate Exchange in Montreal, the latter a division of the Chicago Climate Exchange.

I only wish I were making this up. Go to: www.chicagoclimatex.com/content.jsf?id=1763

If I were an oil company, I would go to the Third World to do my oil development and let the eco-frauds have North America and Europe.:mad: