Help Answer the Question: "What is an irredeemable promise?"

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: Help Answer the Question: "What is an irredeemable promise?"

Not quite, the title of the documents we trade as currency states they are Federal Reserve Notes, you have to know commercial law to understand that notes are promises. But let's not open that can of worms.

Am I not quite correct that there is nothing on the current pieces of paper money that says anything about a promise? Shit, lawyers don't even know the law until they research it, so how is Joe and Jane to know commercial law. I surely don't, and wonder if I knew exactly what you, Sapiens, reference as any sort of a promise, would it actually change anything with my personal situation?

If the US currency were a promise to pay anything of value, it would not be a fiat currency would it?

[Guest]

Re: Help Answer the Question: "What is an irredeemable promise?"

You can redeem your "irredeemable promises" anywhere worldwide for the products of human industry, at fluctuating rates of exchange. The notion they are "irredeemable" is therefore a canard, which no-one here picked up on, due to being collectively entranced by a combination of "shimmering libertarian ideals" with Sapiens' habitual "Pied Piper" form of address. Sapiens wants / needs to be the Pied Piper. Your "irredeemable promises" may be not be exchangeable for full value, but they are certainly redeemable. Sapiens has therefore led us on yet another academic steeplechase.

[Sapiens]

Re: Help Answer the Question: "What is an irredeemable promise?"

Am I not quite correct that there is nothing on the current pieces of paper money that says anything about a promise? Shit, lawyers don't even know the law until they research it, so how is Joe and Jane to know commercial law. I surely don't, and wonder if I knew exactly what you, Sapiens, reference as any sort of a promise, would it actually change anything with my personal situation?

If the US currency were a promise to pay anything of value, it would not be a fiat currency would it?

Have you spent anytime in court? The court presumes you know the law at all times.

As anything personal, any action you take from comprehending the irredeemable currency system is dependent on your predilections, only you know the proper answer to that question, of course I take it to be rhetorical.

Yes, it would be. Anything decreed by the State as money is by fiat, its redeemability notwithstanding.

[Sapiens]

Re: Help Answer the Question: "What is an irredeemable promise?"

You can redeem your "irredeemable promises" anywhere worldwide for the products of human industry, at fluctuating rates of exchange. The notion they are "irredeemable" is therefore a canard, which no-one here picked up on, due to being collectively entranced by a combination of "shimmering libertarian ideals" with Sapiens' habitual "Pied Piper" form of address. Sapiens wants / needs to be the Pied Piper. Your "irredeemable promises" may be not be exchangeable for full value, but they are certainly redeemable. Sapiens has therefore led us on yet another academic steeplechase.

Yawn... Care to tell us how to redeem a promise once a promisee loses confidence on the promisor? :rolleyes:

[Guest]

Re: Help Answer the Question: "What is an irredeemable promise?"

Sapiens, you are dealing in academic absolutes. There is always a currency somewhere in the world, even in a fiat money world, that is a share certificate of a country which is a net creditor and therefore has maintained relative purchasing power. Further, the "vanishing point" at which fiat currencies relinquish all their purchasing power, in the history of inflations worldwide down through the ages, has always been a finite, narrow window of time. 98% of the time down through history, fiat currencies maintain some purchasing power to allow them to take ownership of the fruits of human industry - therefore to call them "irredeemable" is an academic canard. I'll note also, that your ability to "yawn" at objections to your pet theses does not seem to confer upon you the wisdom to see beyond the school blackboard to determine their real world applicability. You may label yourself a "market insider" but based at least on the absolutist assertion in this thread, you sound like you'd be more comfortable inside the halls of academia.

[Sapiens]

Re: Help Answer the Question: "What is an irredeemable promise?"

Sapiens, you are dealing in academic absolutes. There is always a currency somewhere in the world, even in a fiat money world, that is a share certificate of a country which is a net creditor and therefore has maintained relative purchasing power. Further, the "vanishing point" at which fiat currencies relinquish all their purchasing power, in the history of inflations worldwide down through the ages, has always been a finite, narrow window of time. 98% of the time down through history, fiat currencies maintain some purchasing power to allow them to take ownership of the fruits of human industry - therefore to call them "irredeemable" is an academic canard. I'll note also, that your ability to "yawn" at objections to your pet theses does not seem to confer upon you the wisdom to see beyond the school blackboard to determine their real world applicability. You may label yourself a "market insider" but based at least on the absolutist assertion in this thread, you sound like you'd be more comfortable inside the halls of academia.

Lukester, I have absolute contempt for you. Don’t know why, I just do. In my opinion, maybe it has something to do with your pleonastic tendencies.

Again, you are welcome to ignore me and my "academic absolutes" since I have no desire to waste your time. You know, do unto others as you have done unto you kind of thing. Alright old chap?

Cheers,

-Sapiens

[Guest]

Re: Help Answer the Question: "What is an irredeemable promise?"

Lukester, I have absolute contempt for you ... maybe it has something to do with your pleonastic tendencies.

Mark Twain might suggest you "eschew" all those two-dollar words in favor of fifty-cent words, guy. And on the topic of "wordy", no-one else here plasters this community with longer posts than you do. But nobody. I'm flattered that I've caused you to have (more like "nurse" actually) such strong feelings in my regard. My own feelings towards you are "neutral" - I don't really have any.

Have a nice day bubba.

[c1ue]

Re: Help Answer the Question: "What is an irredeemable promise?"

The Federal Reserve: We're here to help the people by providing stable banks.

The American government: We're here to make things better for everyone.

American society: If you work hard, you can achieve the American dream for you and your children.

[vcif]

Re: Help Answer the Question: "What is an irredeemable promise?"

Federal Reserve Notes are, in fact, redeemable in lawful money on demand at the Department of Treasury or any Federal Reserve Bank. They are promises to pay (Notes) and are fully redeemable, by law.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/12/411.html



TITLE 12 > CHAPTER 3 > SUBCHAPTER XII > § 411
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§ 411. Issuance to reserve banks; nature of obligation; redemption

How Current is This?

Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The said notes shall be obligations of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: Help Answer the Question: "What is an irredeemable promise?"

Federal Reserve Notes are, in fact, redeemable in lawful money on demand at the Department of Treasury or any Federal Reserve Bank. They are promises to pay (Notes) and are fully redeemable, by law.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/12/411.html



TITLE 12 > CHAPTER 3 > SUBCHAPTER XII > § 411
Prev | Next

§ 411. Issuance to reserve banks; nature of obligation; redemption

How Current is This?

Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The said notes shall be obligations of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.

If or when one redeems Fed. Reserve Notes for "lawful money" just exactly does one receive?

[JoeSixpack]

Re: Help Answer the Question: "What is an irredeemable promise?"

If or when one redeems Fed. Reserve Notes for "lawful money" just exactly does one receive?

"Any form of currency issued by the United States Treasury and not the Federal Reserve System, including gold and silver coins, Treasury notes, and Treasury bonds. Lawful money stands in contrast to fiat money, to which the government assigns value although it has no intrinsic value of its own and is not backed by reserves."

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/lawfulmoney.asp

So you get debt, isnt that great.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: Help Answer the Question: "What is an irredeemable promise?"

"Any form of currency issued by the United States Treasury and not the Federal Reserve System, including gold and silver coins, Treasury notes, and Treasury bonds. Lawful money stands in contrast to fiat money, to which the government assigns value although it has no intrinsic value of its own and is not backed by reserves."

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/lawfulmoney.asp

So you get debt, isnt that great.

Thus, it is as I noted above: a circle of nothing.

[moonshot]

Re: Help Answer the Question: "What is an irredeemable promise?"

You can redeem your "irredeemable promises" anywhere worldwide for the products of human industry, at fluctuating rates of exchange. The notion they are "irredeemable" is therefore a canard, which no-one here picked up on, due to being collectively entranced by a combination of "shimmering libertarian ideals" with Sapiens' habitual "Pied Piper" form of address. Sapiens wants / needs to be the Pied Piper. Your "irredeemable promises" may be not be exchangeable for full value, but they are certainly redeemable. Sapiens has therefore led us on yet another academic steeplechase.

I think his point is that fiat currency is an irredeemable promise in that when the holder is most desperate for the issuer to take back the fiat in exchange for something of real value (because no one else will), the issuer will not allow redemption for value.

As to his style, well, it may put you off, but there are others who probably aren't bothered.