Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

[grapejelly]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

diesel can be safely stored above ground, which is a big advantage.

I drove a diesel SUV around Costa Rica and was very impressed. Mitsubishi has been making them for years (or at least their name is on the vehicle...could be someone else who makes it). I went to find one in the US but they aren't available yet, but have been available in CR for years.

[metalman]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

diesel can be safely stored above ground, which is a big advantage.

I drove a diesel SUV around Costa Rica and was very impressed. Mitsubishi has been making them for years (or at least their name is on the vehicle...could be someone else who makes it). I went to find one in the US but they aren't available yet, but have been available in CR for years.

here's me in my diesel jetta...



not really

seriously, i'd like to buy a Mitsubishi diesel. maybe go to costa rica and drive it back? gray market. maybe can't register it here...

[ax]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

here's me in my diesel jetta...

not really

seriously, i'd like to buy a Mitsubishi diesel. maybe go to costa rica and drive it back? gray market. maybe can't register it here...

Nice ride.

"For the first time, refiners Valero Energy Corp. and ConocoPhillips this summer will make more money from diesel than gasoline in the Northern Hemisphere, said Andrew Reed, an analyst at Energy Security Analysis Inc. in Boston."

``Diesel is in the driver's seat now, and will be at least in the next few years,'' said Anthony Nunan, assistant general manager for risk management in Tokyo at Mitsubishi Corp., Japan's largest trading company. ``About 43 percent of the world's gasoline is consumed in the U.S., and with high prices and a soft economy, that market is stalling.''

http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=2...jLg&refer=home

[rtchoke]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

VW is supposed to be introducing a 60 mpg Jetta diesel next year. My friend sold his early 1990s Jetta w/160k miles on it for a few thousand dollars recently...his was getting about 44 mpg.

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/02/vw-unveiling-an.html

VW's been experimenting with hybrids of the gasoline-electric variety since the early 1990s, but the Golf hybrid it will unveil next month at the Geneva Motor Show is the first production model the German company's rolled out. Volkswagen isn't offering much in the way of details, but the car is expected to have a parallel hybrid drivetrain with a 2.0 liter engine. Look for it to have an all-electric mode at low speed, start-stop capability, regenerative braking and a 7-speed DSG double-clutch transmission, according to Auto Express and AutoBlog Green.

What's all the techno-jargon mean? The Golf Hybrid will get almost 70 mph mpg (ed. note: D'oh!) while meeting Europe's stringent Euro V and America's Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions standards, making it green enough even for California. The car is said to emit just 89 g/km of CO2. (For comparison, the Prius emits 104 g/km and Honda Civic Hybrid emits 116.)

[Guest]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/02/vw-unveiling-an.html

VW are possibly mis-percieved as manufacturers of light weight "economy cars". Factor in Peak Cheap Oil however, and they have the jump on a lot of other manufacturers as they've specialized in building safety and performance around very light chassis for many years. Their cars are built light, with well designed multiple airbag compensation so they score high in crash protection. Their engines are famous for taking a beating and remaining very reliable. And in the Golf GTI Turbo and Passat Turbo 1.8 Litre and 2.5 Litre series, (like Audi 1.8 Litres too) they provide performance surprisingly far above this small engine size.

While many of these cars seem "dinky" to an American standard, these vehicles are coming out of a classic European car tradition where the 1.8 Litre has been a mainstream smaller engine size for 30-40 years, so Euro carmakers have specialized in squeezing a lot of performance out of these small engines.

Newer model VW's are very fuel efficient, have great reliability (you can find many still on the road running like a top well past 175K miles), the small Diesels run reliably even past 250K, which is very high mileage for a sub 2 Litre engine. Throw in a little German industrial design flair, and the fact that the diesel versions have given some recent pricey hybrids a good thrashing in price/performance vs. MPG, for many years, and you've got a winner. Really well thought out ratio of vehicle weight to small engine size for smart handling, standard shift versions with famously bulletproof gearboxes, superb road handling (make driving some American cars feel like a boat in comparison). I drove a friends Golf GTI Turbo last week. This little economy hatchback drives like a sporty V6, is reasonably stylish (definitely a Peak Cheap Oil kind of chic for some drivers who prefer larger cars) and can run 150K - 200K on regular gasoline. Yes, a Toyota Corolla can also cruise all day at 35 MPG, but try driving one and then the other, and the Golf GTI is ten time the driving enjoyment. This is a really, really quick little 1.8 Litre.

I think VW's new hybrids should be awesome. If they ever come out with a Diesel Hybrid, that should be a car that gets 100 MPG, and knowing Volkswagen, it would feel a bit sporty too. Very good engineering in the past decade's VW's, all around. They have the right concept for approaching Peak Cheap Oil. Let the price of oil creep up to $200 a barrel, and these could become very popular vehicles indeed. What's not to like about 100 MPG in a car that looks a bit cool, as opposed to the goofy PRIUS?

[GRG55]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

VW are possibly mis-percieved as manufacturers of light weight "economy cars". Factor in Peak Cheap Oil however, and they have the jump on a lot of other manufacturers as they've specialized in building safety and performance around very light chassis for many years. Their cars are built light, with well designed multiple airbag compensation so they score high in crash protection. Their engines are famous for taking a beating and remaining very reliable. And in the Golf GTI Turbo and Passat Turbo 1.8 Litre and 2.5 Litre series, (like Audi 1.8 Litres too) they provide performance surprisingly far above this small engine size.

While many of these cars seem "dinky" to an American standard, these vehicles are coming out of a classic European car tradition where the 1.8 Litre has been a mainstream smaller engine size for 30-40 years, so Euro carmakers have specialized in squeezing a lot of performance out of these small engines.

Newer model VW's are very fuel efficient, have great reliability (you can find many still on the road running like a top well past 175K miles), the small Diesels run reliably even past 250K, which is very high mileage for a sub 2 Litre engine. Throw in a little German industrial design flair, and the fact that the diesel versions have given some recent pricey hybrids a good thrashing in price/performance vs. MPG, for many years, and you've got a winner. Really well thought out ratio of vehicle weight to small engine size for smart handling, standard shift versions with famously bulletproof gearboxes, superb road handling (make driving some American cars feel like a boat in comparison). I drove a friends Golf GTI Turbo last week. This little economy hatchback drives like a sporty V6, is reasonably stylish (definitely a Peak Cheap Oil kind of chic for some drivers who prefer larger cars) and can run 150K - 200K on regular gasoline. Yes, a Toyota Corolla can also cruise all day at 35 MPG, but try driving one and then the other, and the Golf GTI is ten time the driving enjoyment. This is a really, really quick little 1.8 Litre.

I think VW's new hybrids should be awesome. If they ever come out with a Diesel Hybrid, that should be a car that gets 100 MPG, and knowing Volkswagen, it would feel a bit sporty too. Very good engineering in the past decade's VW's, all around. They have the right concept for approaching Peak Cheap Oil. Let the price of oil creep up to $200 a barrel, and these could become very popular vehicles indeed. What's not to like about 100 MPG in a car that looks a bit cool, as opposed to the goofy PRIUS?

OK Lukester. I'll match your 100 mpg VW Golf GTI Turbo-diesel hybrid, and raise you one "infinite mpg" Japanese water garden on wheels...

..."The car will continue to run as long as you have a bottle of water to top up from time to time,"...

No wonder Exxon is getting out of the gasoline retail business. :rolleyes:
The article doesn't say if it runs better on Evian or Perrier...:p

Petrol pricey? Japanese invent car that runs on water

Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:23am EDT
TOKYO (Reuters Life!) - Tired of petrol prices rising daily at the pump? A Japanese company has invented an electric-powered, and environmentally friendly, car that it says runs solely on water.

Genepax unveiled the car in the western city of Osaka on Thursday, saying that a liter (2.1 pints) of any kind of water -- rain, river or sea -- was all you needed to get the engine going for about an hour at a speed of 80 km (50 miles).

"The car will continue to run as long as you have a bottle of water to top up from time to time," Genepax CEO Kiyoshi Hirasawa told local broadcaster TV Tokyo.

"It does not require you to build up an infrastructure to recharge your batteries, which is usually the case for most electric cars," he added.
Once the water is poured into the tank at the back of the car, the a generator breaks it down and uses it to create electrical power, TV Tokyo said.

Whether the car makes it into showrooms remains to be seen. Genepax said it had just applied for a patent and is hoping to collaborate with Japanese auto manufacturers in the future.

Most big automakers, meanwhile, are working on fuel-cell cars that run on hydrogen and emit -- not consume -- water.
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...P7366720080613

Here's my attempt to imbed the video clip (about 1 and a half minutes in length). (Hopefully FRED can fix it so it works)
http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=84561

[sadsack]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

OK Lukester. I'll match your 100 mpg VW Golf GTI Turbo-diesel hybrid, and raise you one "infinite mpg" Japanese water garden on wheels...

..."The car will continue to run as long as you have a bottle of water to top up from time to time,"...

No wonder Exxon is getting out of the gasoline retail business. :rolleyes:
The article doesn't say if it runs better on Evian or Perrier...:p

HAHAHAHA!

My only question is, if they have apparently either reversed entropy or harnessed zero-point "Vacuum" energy, why would they waste their time building cars? :confused:

Why not collect CO2 and other combustion byproducts and run them through the "generator" to make oil? :rolleyes:

I think P.T. Barnum would have something to say about this enterprise . . .

[Guest]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

OK Lukester. I'll match your 100 mpg VW Golf GTI Turbo-diesel hybrid, and raise you one "infinite mpg" Japanese water garden on wheels...

Sounds quite intriguing GRG55.

Sadsack, if this made it past GRG55's "smell test" we'd better do a doublecheck before heaping ridicule on it. I recall reading of another prototype like this in the past year also. Actually, I'm more inclined to "fold" on this one than see you on the bet GRG55. Call me a cautious better. 100 MPG diesel hybrid is not a bad card trick - but can easily wind up being "old school". Geez, all this innovative paradigm busting fuel wizardry is almost enough to turn you into one of those "techno-religion" weenies. Maybe we CAN save suburbia for our grandchildren after all! :rolleyes:

[sadsack]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

Sounds quite intriguing GRG55.

Sadsack, if this made it past GRG55's "smell test" we'd better do a doublecheck before heaping ridicule on it. I recall reading of another prototype like this in the past year also. Actually, I'm more inclined to "fold" on this one than see you on the bet GRG55. Call me a cautious better. 100 MPG diesel hybrid is not a bad card trick - but can easily wind up being "old school". Geez, all this innovative paradigm busting fuel wizardry is almost enough to turn you into one of those "techno-religion" weenies. Maybe we CAN save suburbia for our grandchildren after all! :rolleyes:

I think you misunderstand - it most emphatically does not pass GRG55's smell test (hence the Perrier vs. Evian zinger). Check your sarcasm meter - I think it's malfunctioning ;).

Water is a combustion product ( 2 H2 + O2 -> 2 H2O + energy). Energy must be supplied to split the water and extract the hydrogen.

My logic stands: if they are able to "unburn" water, then they should also be able to "unburn" oil.

[Guest]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

Hehe. Ahem. ... Apparently I'm the dunce here then (won't be the last time either). GRG55, have I been led around by the nose here? :confused: :rolleyes:

[GRG55]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

Hehe. Ahem. ... Apparently I'm the dunce here then (won't be the last time either). GRG55, have I been led around by the nose here? :confused: :rolleyes:

I have no idea what the Japanese are doing with the water, but sadsack is 100% correct.

Combustion consists of breaking and forming chemical bonds in molecules.

You can create a small explosion by igniting a mixture of oxygen and hydrogen. You need a source of ignition to supply the initial energy to get the reactions started, but as water vapour is formed the net energy released keeps the reaction going (until the fuel is used up) and the explosion is indicative of the surplus heat energy released.

2 x H2 + O2 = 2 x H2O

As sadsack points out, if you reverse that reaction you have to supply exactly the same net energy input to break the hydrogen-oxygen bonds of the water molecule, and recreate the covalent hydrogen and oxygen molecules, as was released when they were formed (for the above empirical equation it's 118 kcalories).

Seem rather difficult to me to power an automobile with water when the net bond energy result is negative to start with.




Now IF the Japanese have figured out something new and can actually power a car with a bottle of water, I expect the following to occur:

• Big Oil, in collusion with Saudi Arabia, the Bush/Cheney administration and General Motors will squash it flat;
• Ford will issue a press release stating Quality is Job 1, and water has nothing to do with it;
• Japan will be told to hush it up under threat the Pentagon will take it's carriers and go home;
• 10 years from now Michael Moore will make a movie of the whole sordid affair. :rolleyes:

[sadsack]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

I have no idea what the Japanese are doing with the water, but sadsack is 100% correct.







Now IF the Japanese have figured out something new and can actually power a car with a bottle of water, I expect the following to occur:

• Big Oil, in collusion with Saudi Arabia, the Bush/Cheney administration and General Motors will squash it flat;
• Ford will issue a press release stating Quality is Job 1, and water has nothing to do with it;
• Japan will be told to hush it up under threat the Pentagon will take it's carriers and go home;
• 10 years from now Michael Moore will make a movie of the whole sordid affair. :rolleyes:

Come on, you're spoiling the fun.

Imagine if the Japanese had managed to (by "unburning" the hydrogen-oxygen reaction) . . . circumvent the Third Law of Thermodynamics. Since entropy is "Time's Arrow," they have simultaneously discovered the key to limited time-travel.

It's perpetual motion by at least two orders of magnitude on the effectiveness scale . . .

Seriously,

I fear for the future of the US, when basic science and mathematics is effectively an unknown realm . . . hello witch-burning a-la Kenya . . .

[GRG55]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

Come on, you're spoiling the fun.

Imagine if the Japanese had managed to (by "unburning" the hydrogen-oxygen reaction) . . . circumvent the Third Law of Thermodynamics. Since entropy is "Time's Arrow," they have simultaneously discovered the key to limited time-travel.

It's perpetual motion by at least two orders of magnitude on the effectiveness scale . . .

Seriously,

I fear for the future of the US, when basic science and mathematics is effectively an unknown realm . . . hello witch-burning a-la Kenya . . .

Maybe even worse. Back to the future; hello witch-burning a la Salem?

[sadsack]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

Maybe even worse. Back to the future; hello witch-burning a la Salem?

At least, such a reaction is (potentially) exothermic (if you have access to Nazi "experimental records") . . .

dead cat diesel anyone? :eek:

[Shakespear]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

Something wrong here. I have a SKODA diesel car here in Poland and it is super. Gets 4.5-4.9 l/ 100 km. ,no smoke, starts well in winter, not very noise and accelerates very well.