Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

[Sapiens]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/18/au...in&oref=slogin

AFTER years in the automotive wilderness, largely exiled to the smoky borders of truck stops, diesel is coming home. Americans may not recognize its freshly scrubbed face.

...

Similar to what happened after the 70's oil shock, small diesels were in vogue in the early 80's, can you say déjà vu?

[Starving Steve]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

The cost of diesel fuel is $5.299 per gallon here in Aromas, California, and this is about one dollar per gallon ABOVE the price of gasoline. So, what is the advantage of diesel? Any advantage in fuel economy is cancelled-out by the higher cost of diesel.

Oh, but there are other dis-advantages of diesel. Motors don't last as long as gas motors because diesel fuel is dirty, and this dirty fuel puts wear on motor parts such as shell bearings. Starting a diesel in Canadian cold is another problem. Smoke and noise from diesels is another problem. Cost of buying a diesel is another issue. Repair costs and finding a place to repair the engine is another problem. Finding a place to buy diesel on the highway is another issue. Sluggish acceleration is yet another issue.

There are many reasons why the love-affair with diesels is over, at least here in North America. :rolleyes:

[Guest]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

Not so for *all* diesels Steve. I drive a little turbodiesel 1.9 litre Volkswagen. It gets 35 MPG in the city, and 47 MPG on the freeway. I get 600 miles on a 13 gallon tankful of diesel fuel. (Drove from San Diego to Phoenix AZ on a single tank of fuel!). New cafe' standards for diesel engines is virtually as clean as on gasoline engines. Diesel fuel provides 30% more energy output per gallon than does gasoline. The low revolutions torque makes turbodiesels a joy to drive.

How am I doing in today's outrageously priced fuel environment? 13 gallons to fill the tank, @ $5.30 per gallon = $68.90 for a tank. Divided by 600 miles range = 11.48 cents per mile. Yessir, that's economy.

This little 1.9 litre turbo has the get up and go of a V6, and if the California Highway patrol would only let me (which they sure as hell won't), I could cruise all day long at 100 mph with the engine only running at 3000 RPM's. Diesels, especially these small efficient sub 2000 CC ones, are awesome.

I've been reading that the big migration in car engines coming up is going to be diesel/hybrid. You combine the ultra-high miles per gallon small diesel engine with the efficiency of the hybrid - boom - right off the shelf using 2007 technology you've got zippy little cars that get 60-120 miles per gallon. Believe it, as this combination is absolutely already discounted technology.

Most to the point, if this next generation of diesel / hybrid engines gets the nod as the largest single new car segment, you have (voila') the massive potential in North America of the coal-to-diesel resources. Not to speak of shale-oil-to-diesel. Diesel is the natural choice for the next generation of car engines. And Volkswagen has already shown for years how much moxy these little TDI's really have. Ever driven a little TDI golf? Those little babies can "really book" on the freeway. And from what I've heard, diesel engines are much higher mile engines than gasoline! They burn much cooler, at lower revs.

The old Mercedes TurboDiesels from the 1980's are three quarter million mile engines at the top end. Literally. I have seen some of these elegant old Mercedes sedans down here with 600,000 + miles on them, and still running strong.

[ax]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

The cost of diesel fuel is $5.299 per gallon here in Aromas, California, and this is about one dollar per gallon ABOVE the price of gasoline. So, what is the advantage of diesel? Any advantage in fuel economy is cancelled-out by the higher cost of diesel.

Oh, but there are other dis-advantages of diesel. Motors don't last as long as gas motors because diesel fuel is dirty, and this dirty fuel puts wear on motor parts such as shell bearings. Starting a diesel in Canadian cold is another problem. Smoke and noise from diesels is another problem. Cost of buying a diesel is another issue. Repair costs and finding a place to repair the engine is another problem. Finding a place to buy diesel on the highway is another issue. Sluggish acceleration is yet another issue.

There are many reasons why the love-affair with diesels is over, at least here in North America. :rolleyes:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question399.htm

"The two things working in favor of diesel engines are better fuel economy and longer engine life."

Dirtier, yes, for now. But Steve, I haven't read where diesel engines don't last longer than gas, can you elaborate or point me in the right direction? What I know about engines wouldn't fill up much more than this paragraph.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

My Oldsmobile diesel died with 120,000 miles on it. Upon replacing the motor, the replacement died soon after.

My friend had a Rabbit diesel, a neat little car back in 1979. He pampered his diesel with endless servicing, and his Rabbit died due to engine failure at 160,000 miles.

I know next to nothing about diesels, but two things kill diesels: dirt from the fuel and the high compression. These shorten the life of the motors.

Obviously, a well engineered diesel motor would last longer, but the fact was that diesels sold in the North American market in the past were pathetic. They were not built to last.

[Sidewinder]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

My Oldsmobile diesel died with 120,000 miles on it. Upon replacing the motor, the replacement died soon after.

My friend had a Rabbit diesel, a neat little car back in 1979. He pampered his diesel with endless servicing, and his Rabbit died due to engine failure at 160,000 miles.

I know next to nothing about diesels, but two things kill diesels: dirt from the fuel and the high compression. These shorten the life of the motors.

Obviously, a well engineered diesel motor would last longer, but the fact was that diesels sold in the North American market in the past were pathetic. They were not built to last.

Cannot claim any expert knowledge but am still running a 2000 Jetta TDI with 284k on it. No special treatment - just keeps on going...

[Guest]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

Cannot claim any expert knowledge but am still running a 2000 Jetta TDI with 284k on it. No special treatment - just keeps on going...

Gimme five Sidewinder. That's cool! Hot diggety.

[GRG55]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

My Oldsmobile diesel died with 120,000 miles on it. Upon replacing the motor, the replacement died soon after.

My friend had a Rabbit diesel, a neat little car back in 1979. He pampered his diesel with endless servicing, and his Rabbit died due to engine failure at 160,000 miles.

I know next to nothing about diesels, but two things kill diesels: dirt from the fuel and the high compression. These shorten the life of the motors.

Obviously, a well engineered diesel motor would last longer, but the fact was that diesels sold in the North American market in the past were pathetic. They were not built to last.

I think your last statement is the source of the problem. The filters (water and sediment) on a well designed diesel engine are much finer than gasoline motors. The injectors on a diesel engine cannot tolerate any solid fines, and the high compression engines are less tolerant of incompressible water in the fuel. So it's critical to keep that stuff out. But if it gets through it's not the fault of the engine, is it?

Second, the reason a diesel motor is more efficient is because of the high compression ratio. In fact, the best way to increase the efficiency of an Otto cycle engine (a spark-ignition engine) is to increase the compression ratio. The problem in a spark-ignition gasoline engine is that higher compression required higher octane fuels to avoid detonation.

Third, a properly engineered and maintained diesel engine should way outperform the useful life of a similar service gasoline engine. Diesel oil fuel is a lubricant. Gasoline is a solvent. As a solvent, gasoline is continuously trying to wash the lubricating oil from the cylinder wall and valve guides. The wear on piston rings and valve guides is generally much higher, and the overhaul intervals therefore more frequent, in a gasoline engine as a result.

There is a reason that long haul trucks are almost exclusively diesel. And it's not because diesel engines wear out faster or fail sooner.

You are correct that many of the light automotive diesels that were introduced in the late 1970's and 1980's were badly engineered. Some manufacturers (and I believe GM and VW were both guilty of this) tried to use modified gasoline engine blocks (cast in extra webs, etc.) converted for diesel. None of these ever worked very well as the torsional loads from a diesel are tremendous and the blocks proved not stiff enough to keep everything aligned. In addition, I suspect that to keep costs down things like sediment and water filters were probably underdesigned, and dealer service departments probably tried to maintain these components like the gasoline engines they were more familiar with.

[metalman]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

I think your last statement is the source of the problem. The filters (water and sediment) on a well designed diesel engine are much finer than gasoline motors. The injectors on a diesel engine cannot tolerate any solid fines, and the high compression engines are less tolerant of incompressible water in the fuel. So it's critical to keep that stuff out. But if it gets through it's not the fault of the engine, is it?

Second, the reason a diesel motor is more efficient is because of the high compression ratio. In fact, the best way to increase the efficiency of an Otto cycle engine (a spark-ignition engine) is to increase the compression ratio. The problem in a spark-ignition gasoline engine is that higher compression required higher octane fuels to avoid detonation.

Third, a properly engineered and maintained diesel engine should way outperform the useful life of a similar service gasoline engine. Diesel oil fuel is a lubricant. Gasoline is a solvent. As a solvent, gasoline is continuously trying to wash the lubricating oil from the cylinder wall and valve guides. The wear on piston rings and valve guides is generally much higher, and the overhaul intervals therefore more frequent, in a gasoline engine as a result.

There is a reason that long haul trucks are almost exclusively diesel. And it's not because diesel engines wear out faster or fail sooner.

You are correct that many of the light automotive diesels that were introduced in the late 1970's and 1980's were badly engineered. Some manufacturers (and I believe GM and VW were both guilty of this) tried to use modified gasoline engine blocks (cast in extra webs, etc.) converted for diesel. None of these ever worked very well as the torsional loads from a diesel are tremendous and the blocks proved not stiff enough to keep everything aligned. In addition, I suspect that to keep costs down things like sediment and water filters were probably underdesigned, and dealer service departments probably tried to maintain these components like the gasoline engines they were more familiar with.

sorry but i have to ask... exactly how many brains do you keep in your skull, anyway? never mind.

do you know of any good light diesel cars?

[GRG55]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

sorry but i have to ask... exactly how many brains do you keep in your skull, anyway? never mind.

do you know of any good light diesel cars?

Metalman: I am a gear (engineer) and used to be a rodder and gymkhana racer, so spent a lot of my youth (1970's, early 1980's) underneath cars wrenching on them (trying to make them go faster, or fixing after I broke them trying to go faster).

I am not sure what is available for diesels in the USA, so I doubt I will be of much help. I understand that many states, including California, have restrictions on diesel cars in the belief the they are polluting? I do not have direct experience with cars (see last 3 paragraphs), but I understand from another family member who's owned a couple of them that the newer VW diesels are pretty reliable and the turbo models perform well. Seems similar experience to what Luke and Sidewinder wrote above.

If I was to buy a diesel car I would probably try to find a late model used Mercedes sedan. They've been building them for decades, always improving them (typical German approach) and the engineering is superb. Probably the closest thing to a lifetime car if you take care of it. I've seen the same thing as Lukester; several examples of really high mileage diesel Mercedes that run like new.

I think we should start to see many of the European makes start to introduce their diesel cars into North America. BMW sells a diesel sedan in Europe, as does Volvo, (and Renault and Peugeot, etc) but I don't know if they have ever been available in the US. This is one area where I think the Japanese are behind the curve, but maybe another iTuliper can correct me or confirm? Regardless, they will be damned expensive "economy" cars IMO.

We've got 5 North American diesel pick-ups in my family (myself, my brothers and my nephews). All have proven to be exceptional vehicles. 2 Fords, 2 Cummins powered Dodges, and one GMC Duramax. These are all purpose built engines with great track records, but not exactly small, light vehicles though. These are all being run in Canada, haul everything from horse trailers to snowmobiles, run fine in the winter (we need to use block heaters up here in most locations) and three of them are more than 15 years old (one is 24 years) and all are used daily.

We have a rather different philosophy in our family. We think its cheaper to own a vehicle for 20+ years and maintain it properly, regardless of how much fuel it uses, rather than constantly replacing or upgrading it. What you can save on depreciation and insurance (who's going to steal it?) more than offsets any higher fuel usage.

Here's a heretical thought in this day and age. Other than the aforementioned late model Mercedes (with the intent to keep it "forever"), I would be tempted to run the numbers on a used diesel Ford, GM or Dodge pickup. If diesel is more expensive than gasoline, and if the stories I am hearing out of the US about people selling their trucks because they can't afford either the lease or the tank fill-up, maybe there's some real bargains to be had. What you can save on capital might buy a whole lotta fuel even at these prices. Just a thought...

[ax]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

sorry but i have to ask... exactly how many brains do you keep in your skull, anyway? never mind.

do you know of any good light diesel cars?

VW is supposed to be introducing a 60 mpg Jetta diesel next year. My friend sold his early 1990s Jetta w/160k miles on it for a few thousand dollars recently...his was getting about 44 mpg.

[metalman]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

Metalman: I am a gear (engineer) and used to be a rodder and gymkhana racer, so spent a lot of my youth (1970's, early 1980's) underneath cars wrenching on them (trying to make them go faster, or fixing after I broke them trying to go faster).

I am not sure what is available for diesels in the USA, so I doubt I will be of much help. I understand that many states, including California, have restrictions on diesel cars in the belief the they are polluting? I do not have direct experience with cars (see last 3 paragraphs), but I understand from another family member who's owned a couple of them that the newer VW diesels are pretty reliable and the turbo models perform well. Seems similar experience to what Luke and Sidewinder wrote above.

If I was to buy a diesel car I would probably try to find a late model used Mercedes sedan. They've been building them for decades, always improving them (typical German approach) and the engineering is superb. Probably the closest thing to a lifetime car if you take care of it. I've seen the same thing as Lukester; several examples of really high mileage diesel Mercedes that run like new.

I think we should start to see many of the European makes start to introduce their diesel cars into North America. BMW sells a diesel sedan in Europe, as does Volvo, (and Renault and Peugeot, etc) but I don't know if they have ever been available in the US. This is one area where I think the Japanese are behind the curve, but maybe another iTuliper can correct me or confirm? Regardless, they will be damned expensive "economy" cars IMO.

We've got 5 North American diesel pick-ups in my family (myself, my brothers and my nephews). All have proven to be exceptional vehicles. 2 Fords, 2 Cummins powered Dodges, and one GMC Duramax. These are all purpose built engines with great track records, but not exactly small, light vehicles though. These are all being run in Canada, haul everything from horse trailers to snowmobiles, run fine in the winter (we need to use block heaters up here in most locations) and three of them are more than 15 years old (one is 24 years) and all are used daily.

We have a rather different philosophy in our family. We think its cheaper to own a vehicle for 20+ years and maintain it properly, regardless of how much fuel it uses, rather than constantly replacing or upgrading it. What you can save on depreciation and insurance (who's going to steal it?) more than offsets any higher fuel usage.

Here's a heretical thought in this day and age. Other than the aforementioned late model Mercedes (with the intent to keep it "forever"), I would be tempted to run the numbers on a used diesel Ford, GM or Dodge pickup. If diesel is more expensive than gasoline, and if the stories I am hearing out of the US about people selling their trucks because they can't afford either the lease or the tank fill-up, maybe there's some real bargains to be had. What you can save on capital might buy a whole lotta fuel even at these prices. Just a thought...

good thinking. just took a look at cars.com and used trucks are still expensive. maybe have to wait a year ala housing bubble bust for owners to throw in the towel and sell at lower prices. or maybe the repo auctions is the way to go...

[MEDIA]http://www.interstateautoauction.com/comercials/Mercedes.wmv[/MEDIA]

[zoog]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

VW is supposed to be introducing a 60 mpg Jetta diesel next year. My friend sold his early 1990s Jetta w/160k miles on it for a few thousand dollars recently...his was getting about 44 mpg.

Friend of mine has a diesel Jetta, early 2000's model I think. He runs it on biodiesel.

VW showed off a diesel hybrid concept car recently, but no commitment on production or US distribution.

Mercedes has now released a diesel E320 sedan that meets California emissions standards. BMW has a (relatively) new diesel engine that also meets California standards and they will start rolling those out in the US this year. I think they are starting with the X5 (SUV) and 335d sedan.

Honda says they will have an Acura with 4cyl diesel in 2009, and Accord with 6cyl diesel in 2010.

GM, Nissan, Subaru, Mitsubishi... name a car company, they're all talking about diesel cars in the US by 2010.

[Guest]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

I want one of each of those Zoog (yummy diesel bimmers and mercs) . So I can be extra, extra, extra fuel efficient. Driving a different flavor squeaky new diesel chariot each day of the week has to be more fuel efficient than driving the same one all week. Stands to reason.

[Guest]

Re: Déjà vu: Diesel Automobiles Clean Up for an Encore

I can remember being surprised when my Dad drove home his first foreign car, a diesel Audi, in the 80s sometime. It left a nice black smudge on the rear bumper and had a grainy tractor like rattle but did get good fuel mileage.

I'm sure car diesels are much improved since then (trucks are still noisy and annoying, how many times have you seen a guy in one have to turn off the engine to place an order in the drive-thru?). Unfortunately the new regulations took them off the market for the most part for a year or two and they are just now about to start back up.

I know VW will be putting them in several vehicles. Anyone else?

When the supply of diesel is matched to the demand properly and prices are similar to gasoline they'd be a nice choice. I looked hard at them a couple years back when I had 20,000 miles of long distance cruising to do each year but went with a 30mpg gasoline car since the only brand of diesel out there that met my needs was unreliable as heck.