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Food riots and the Schiff scenario

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  • #16
    Re: food riots and the schiff scenario

    Fred - I looked through the referenced Macro Man web page. He writes:

    << More fundamentally, if the commodity meltdown continues, then the inflation problem that Macro Man has worried about for the past couple of years may need to be shelved temporarily.... >>

    Ehm ... is it possible he's missing one or two inflationary symptoms, as we traverse the present banking crisis? He's using the price action in commodities as a functional 'equivalent' to inflation?

    It's not clear (to me) that commodity price action is a direct equivalent to inflation, and at least some other observers (Gary Dorsch below) are noting a significant 'pump' of liquidity in progress which Macro Man seems to decline mentioning as relevant? Instead he's scrutinising short term commodity price behavior (scary gold price plunge) for 'clues' as to what's happening inflation-wise and coming to what appear some vacillating conclusions instead. Macro Man seems (in the linked page at any rate) a bit fuzzy about the primary inflation indicators, at least as E.J. has always advised us to read them - always at the source?

    He concludes that because commodities have steeply corrected their manic run since last August, this is equivalent to a significant bearish turn in the commodities fundamentally - which seems not more than a conjecture. Maybe it's even just "market noise" in the commodities complex, where "noise" tends to be amplified. If he were reading a little Ty Andros he'd have noted "Dr. Copper" (the barometer for the entire industrial complex) is busting out of a long consolidation, and also shows a scant 2 days global supply to meet current consumption.

    Why is he not spotting this datum?

    His conclusion " the inflation problem worried about for the past couple of years may need to be shelved " reveals some uncertainty about what to scrutnise, (at least in this one article), compared to the likes of Ty Andros who homes in on the 'firehoses of liquidity' as the real story to watch. Some question marks on Macro Guy's method are popping up.

    This chart is from a recent Gary Dorsch article. Macro Man writes: "The inflation problem may need to be shelved temporarily"? Question: how do you ignore an MZM like this in that hesitant prognosis?

    gary_dorsch_MZM_chart_2008.jpg

    QUOTES FROM THE GARY DORSCH ARTICLE:

    ( full article here : http://www.financialsense.com/Market...2008/0403.html )

    __________

    << Expectations that the Fed’s rate cutting campaign is nearing an end has stabilized the US dollar, with the greenback’s strongest gains seen against the Japanese yen, which offers negative rates of interest after adjusting for inflation, and the British pound in anticipation of gradual rate cuts by the Bank of England. The Bank of Canada is expected to match any residual Fed rate cut in this cycle.

    The Gold market was rattled after its historic rally fizzled out above the psychological $1,000/oz level, and surprising moves by the Federal Reserve to drain some excess cash out of the US banking system after the rescue of Bear Stearns. But Mr. Bernanke and his radical band of inflationists at the Fed have expanded the MZM money supply by 16.8% from a year ago, which could ignite hyper-inflation in the US economy once the monetary stimulus in the pipeline starts to take effect. >>

    __________

    And on currencies:

    JPY - TEMPTED TO USE A STRONGER CURRENCY TO CONTAIN COMMODITIES INFLATION (Quote from Dorsch article)

    " Signaling a historic shift in Tokyo’s foreign exchange policy,former Bank of Japan chief Toshihiko Fukui said on March 7th, “A stronger yen will ease the negative effect from rising costs of crude oil and commodities.” Finance chief Nukaga agrees and told the parliament on March 27th, “If the yen rises, goods will be coming into the country cheaply and could turn the economy for the better while benefiting Japanese consumers. I think it would be good in the medium to long run,” he said. "

    EUR - TEMPTED TO USE A STRONGER CURRENCY TO CONTAIN COMMODITIES INFLATION (Quote from Dorsch article)

    " Much like the Bank of Japan and the Swiss National Bank, the ECB is utilizing a stronger currency to fend off inflationary pressures from soaring commodity prices. But the rise in the Euro/US$ exchange rate has still lagged behind the increase in food and energy prices. As a result, inflation in the 15 countries using the Euro accelerated to 3.5% in March, a 16-year high, and even further above the ECB’s long ignored inflation target of 2 percent. "

    USD - ODD MAN OUT

    Hawkish US rate "strong dollar" policy to control commodities inflation is out of the question, due to plunging domestic asset prices. Imagine the carnage in 2008 or 2009 if the US raised rates. It's just not a viable option. Compared to other currencies this forecasts at a minimum a comparatively weak USD interest rate continuing vs. JPY and EUR. So you have soaring baseline inflation in commodities worldwide, at least relatively hawkish interest rates to contain commodities inflation from JPY and EUR - which all combined suggests US import costs are set to skyrocket. Adding fuel to the fire is the fact that in the US the MZM is trending at 16%+.

    We are to imagine inflationary pressures in the US are abating, because gold and the commodities complex corrected sharply?

    __________

    Originally posted by FRED View Post
    For readers who feel compelled to make small trades within the big trades we are more partial to commentators such as Macro Man who offers consistent and level-headed opinions on the markets.
    __________

    This is not "DEFLATION". It would appear to be a common "PRICE CORRECTION". Underlying inflation at the source at least in the US, appears to be "spring-loaded" to kick in a fresh wave of new inflation from the MZM alone, and certainly appears to be further "spring-loaded" in commodities prices across the entire world. Think of copper - at a mere 2 day's supply vs. global consumption.

    gold-forecast-3-4-08.gif

    __________

    And look what's happening in food!!

    Symptoms of food inflation around the world - complete the raging inflation occurring across the board in the entire CRB. Corrections are mere noise in the trend.

    << In the past year, riots broke out in 12 different countries. Street protests occurred in Jakarta. Strikes in Italy. Unprecedented government controls in 20 different countries. Over what? Oppressive government? Long work hours? No. They're rioting and protesting because they can no longer afford to eat with these skyrocketing food costs.

    In the last six months alone, the basics people live on have surged dramatically in price. Corn prices have jumped 51%. Barley has soared 38%. Oats, 53%. Wheat, 56%. And rice - the mainstay of diets in emerging countries home to over 3 billion - shot up a devastating 67%. You may not have heard the hungry protesters or seen the riots - yet - but I'm guessing you've felt this uncomfortable inflationary squeeze in your grocery bills.

    In just the last year…Pork prices leapt over 63% in China…Tortilla prices up 51% in Mexico…Bread prices up 35% in Egypt…Rice prices doubled in Philippines…Soybean prices jumped in Argentina, leading to riots…Here in the U.S., you now have to fork over another 32% more for a loaf of bread than you did just three years ago. A carton of eggs costs you 50% more since this time last year. And overall your food bills have climbed 5% since 2007, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. >>

    From China to Argentina…from the Philippines to Mexico…street protests, food strikes and riots are breaking out. It evidences all the signs of the beginning of a global food crisis.
    Last edited by Contemptuous; April 06, 2008, 02:12 AM.

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    • #17
      Re: Food riots and the Schiff scenario

      I think we are rolling-over now into a deflation, and Helicopter-Ben will inflate like crazy against this deflation.

      So gold will put in a double top; the second top could be just over or under four digits. This would confuse everyone, which the gold market loves to do. Then gold will gradually fall with lots of bounces to confuse everyone.

      I think real estate is going to get worse. We already have bus tours of foreclosures in certain cities.

      The US dollar is in for a dead-cat bounce. Sell the upper 70s on the dollar index. Use a rally in the dollar as an escape plan from the dollar.

      I am trying to think of what good news could come to make the dollar rally. So far, I can't think of any such news, but the chart seems to say that it is time for a bouce.

      Interest rates are probably going to zero. Bernankee is a nut.

      Survival: eat rice, beans, peppers, leaf lettuce, spaghetti, trout, pancakes, and whole grains. For heat, burn wood. ( You can thank the eco-frauds who killed nuclear power for the cost of electricity now. ) For light, use twisty-bulbs. For transportation: use your legs, bike, tobaggan, wagon, whatever. (Stay home as much as possible.)
      Last edited by Starving Steve; April 05, 2008, 09:23 PM.

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      • #18
        Re: Food riots and the Schiff scenario

        lukester,
        i've been reading macro-man for months. you need to understand that he's a macro TRADER for some fire institution in the city of london. his focus tends to be short-intermediate term- "what's the next trade?" my impressin is that his time frame is days to weeks to perhaps a few months. that is, he's not scalping ticks in trades that last minutes to hours. he's buying positions that he holds for a bit. but, being in the business he's in, he's not thinking in terms of many months to years. nonetheless, he's sometimes amusing, and sometimes has interesting insights.

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        • #19
          Re: Food riots and the Schiff scenario

          Originally posted by jk View Post
          ...schiff postulated a u.s. recession, with the em's decoupling and allowing their currencies to rise. the u.s. recession would reduce global commodity demand, while the rise in e.m. currencies would increase e.m. buying power. the bolded statement above re: the rupee is the first piece of evidence i've seen for this particular mechanism.

          Not sure why you would say this jk??? The "Currency" topic is filled with threads on this theme, including the "beat to death" Gulf currency peg revaluation [of course the rampant inflationin the region is this motivation] and this little tidbit about Vietnam...
          http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2142

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          • #20
            Re: Food riots and the Schiff scenario

            Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
            Not sure why you would say this jk??? The "Currency" topic is filled with threads on this theme, including the "beat to death" Gulf currency peg revaluation [of course the rampant inflationin the region is this motivation] and this little tidbit about Vietnam...
            http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2142
            you're quite right, grg. all those references to inflation amount to the same thing. the tie of the currency to food riots is bit more dramatic, i suppose. and while growing inflation certainly exerts pressure on decision makers, i would imagine that rioting would be even more salient.

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            • #21
              Re: Food riots and the Schiff scenario

              Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
              Not sure why you would say this jk??? The "Currency" topic is filled with threads on this theme, including the "beat to death" Gulf currency peg revaluation [of course the rampant inflationin the region is this motivation] and this little tidbit about Vietnam...
              http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2142
              how old is the "schiff scenario" exactly? falling dollar, inflation in dollar peg countries, currency appreciation in non-pegged... doesn't sound like such a new idea to me. isn't that what this says... back in may 2006?

              give schiff credit where credit's due, tho. his brother runs a pr agency so he gets a lot of air.

              agree with 90% of what schiff says, but it isn't what you'd call 'original'.



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              • #22
                Re: Food riots and the Schiff scenario

                Originally posted by jk View Post
                you're quite right, grg. all those references to inflation amount to the same thing. the tie of the currency to food riots is bit more dramatic, i suppose. and while growing inflation certainly exerts pressure on decision makers, i would imagine that rioting would be even more salient.
                Exactly. People seem to grumble, but put up with rising petrol and housing prices. But not so with food. And the threat of civil unrest is enough to motivate even unelected leaders to take action...
                http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...food#post21863

                Perhaps a rising US$ will give a temporary reprieve, but if/when the Dollar resumes its downtrend the Gulf States will have to repeg. Perhaps the reprieve will be long enough to allow the current US Administration to make a "successful" escape from Washington, D.C. I imagine they are hoping so... :rolleyes:

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                • #23
                  Re: Food riots and the Schiff scenario

                  Well, at least we are spelling his name right these days. It's as constructive a start as any for this community.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Food riots and the Schiff scenario

                    Originally posted by Lukester View Post
                    Well, at least we are spelling his name right these days. It's as constructive a start as any for this community.
                    i liked 'peter schiffty'. how about 'pr schiff' instead of "peter schiff'? :eek:

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: food riots and the schiff scenario

                      Originally posted by Lukester View Post
                      Raja - I think you'll have a very, very tough job of it finding a clearly convincing entry point. "Entry points" will be shrouded in permanent ambiguity.

                      Our single greatest enemy to investing in these very long term trends is that we cannot escape our "ant's eye view"of the price action. We recoil in horror from 20% drawdowns, and our minds cannot reach out and firmly grasp the massive scale of the entire trend to come. So investing in this trend has been, and will continue to be to the greatest extent a "mind game". The trend is a long one - but then I'm one of the "it really is different this time" school of thought (Rajiv is also), and many others here seem to adhere (to my mind unreasonably) to the notion that "it can't ever be different this time".

                      For me, moving from 6 billion to 8 billion people in the next 25 years is the clincher (this is Stephen Leeb's datum). Anyone who cannot understand how that makes it "different this time" is stone blind in my opinion.

                      The human mind can deal with a linear approximation very well. 2% a year over a small time horizon looks linear. Stretch that out on a broad time scale and you get reality (which is depressing).

                      Think 2% population growth is sustainable? Think again! Just plot it out for say 400 years and see what you come up with.

                      "The greatest failing of the human mind is it's inability to comprehend the exponential function." Not mine, can't remember the source.

                      Think of a bacterium that doubles in population every minute. You start with the initial condition of 1 bacterium in a 1 L flask of sugar water. The experiment starts at 0600. The population grows and grows, doubling minute by minute, until 1159 when the entire volume of 1 L is filled with bacteria. By 1200, a mass die off has taken place and all of the bacteria have died due to resource exhaustion (all the sugar water is gone).

                      Lets test you knowledge of the exponential function, shall we?



                      At what time in the experiment was half the resource (sugar water) still remaining?





                      If you answered 1158 you are correct!!



                      You can't paper over Malthus. Timing wrong, yes. Fundamental conclusion wrong? Time will tell, and soon as the above example illustrates.

                      Find me a linear function that beats an exponential one (other than one were the slope of the line is INFINITE) and you can solve the food and natural resource problem.

                      Okay enough gloom. Here is the good news. The above conclusion is ONLY sound IF you limit the resource base to the planet we currently inhabit. (NO, I am not ******* kidding, do the math).

                      If we don't achieve the technology to allow us to extract natural resources outside the terrestrial sphere, then yes we are totally fucked.

                      HOWEVER, if we do, then literally, the sky is the limit. (the good news)

                      Human population migration due to resource availability has been one of, if not THE driving force behind population movement since time began.

                      Is it really "DIFFERENT" this time?

                      Your re-attacks welcome.

                      P.S. Forgot to add my own take on Occam's Razor. If there is only ONE possible solution to a problem, then that is what will be done, But only AFTER it has been shown to be the case.

                      Translation. The problems out there ARE NOT insurmountable, there is a/are solution(s). The only QUESTION is how MUCH misery must be endured BEFORE said solutions are implemented.

                      THIS IS THE ONLY POINT OF DEBATE WORTH ADDRESSING, IMNSHO. ( In My Not So Humble Opinion)
                      Last edited by jtabeb; April 06, 2008, 11:49 PM. Reason: added thought in PS

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                      • #26
                        Re: food riots and the schiff scenario

                        Originally posted by Lukester View Post

                        Patience = safety. The most conservative "short" is to be out of the market in cash.
                        Correction: The most conservative "short" is to be out of the market in GOLD/SILVER.

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                        • #27
                          Re: food riots and the schiff scenario

                          Originally posted by raja View Post
                          Is that the same Peter Schiff who predicted Black Monday a couple of weeks ago . . . to whom I foolishly listened and lost (temporarily) a bunch of money shorting the market right before it went up 600 points? :mad:

                          I dont know where you guys are getting the idea that Schiff predicted Black Monday. Maybe I missed something. He sends out a weekly commentary that said that it was possible we were going to have a really bad Monday a few weeks ago, but he never pushes short term trades.

                          Every time he is asked for short term predictions he always says he doesnt know whats going to happen in the short term, but then gives his predictions for the long term trend, which he has been pretty spot on so far.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Food riots and the Schiff scenario

                            Originally posted by Lukester
                            For me, moving from 6 billion to 8 billion people in the next 25 years is the clincher
                            How will the population grow if food keeps increasing in price?

                            Isn't the vast majority of this population growth in the poor nations? Who cannot afford food?

                            Sounds like the miracle of the loaves and fishes to me...only it is people.

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                            • #29
                              Re: food riots and the schiff scenario

                              Originally posted by raja View Post
                              Is that the same Peter Schiff who predicted Black Monday a couple of weeks ago . . . to whom I foolishly listened and lost (temporarily) a bunch of money shorting the market right before it went up 600 points? :mad:
                              In his defence, I think he has said he doesn't short the market . One good reason for this is that you can be right and if enough other people are just wrong you can still lose money shorting if you can't meet your margins.

                              Back during the dot com fiasco I happened to be 100% sure a company called goto had a terrible unsustainable business model and would fail. So I shorted it as an early experiment with the technique. Within a few months it was worth $0. So I was proved right. But before that happened it doubled in price as enough fools bought it and I got out of the position since I'd told myself that was my level of risk exposure, losing money.

                              My lesson learned was to never underestimate the ignorance and foolish risk taking in the market. You can be 100% right but if millions of idiots who are wrong are in the same market, you have to be pretty darn brave to stick with a short.

                              So one can be right calling things and still look wrong if you're basing it on short term timing. Schiff isn't a trader. He doesn't claim to be. His calling for a specific "black" day was out of character for him and good proof why he's been wise not to do it in the past.

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                              • #30
                                Re: food riots and the schiff scenario

                                Originally posted by raja View Post
                                Is that the same Peter Schiff who predicted Black Monday a couple of weeks ago . . . to whom I foolishly listened and lost (temporarily) a bunch of money shorting the market right before it went up 600 points? :mad:
                                don't let anyone bullshit you, raja. schiff absolutely said... "crash after the bear bailout." here it is...

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