Confidential document said to warn of conflict or revolution ahead for America

[c1ue]

Re: Confidential document said to warn of conflict or revolution ahead for America

Ah, but there is one huge difference between the US and Russia. In the USA we have guns. The founding fathers really did know what they were doing.

Um, why do you think Russians don't have guns?

Between the conscription, and the siloviki, and what not, there are plenty of guns in Russia. There just isn't an NRA since Russians do not have the Liberal Elite and therefore don't require an opposing organization.

Therefore, our "rapers of the people" have to be a lot more sophisticated in how they do it than Russia's.

Well, I have to say that in general, Americans have been the stupid assistants to what has been done to them.

Sure, Russia has had bad government.

But the same can be said for many nations - plus for Russia the difficulty of ruling a nation with 11 time zones should not be understated.

Communism, while ultimately a failure due to the inherent fallabilities of humans, was a very fine and idealistic experiment.

Democracy, or I should say Capitalist-Democracy, has been enjoying a good 90 years profiting from the self-immolation of Europe - it remains to be seen whether this was an aberration or a trend.

[Guest]

Re: Confidential document said to warn of conflict or revolution ahead for America

Democracy ... has been enjoying a good 90 years profiting from the self-immolation of Europe - it remains to be seen whether this was an aberration or a trend.

Don't forget Republican Greece and Rome. This is a good deal more than a potential aberration. When people get a whiff of this kind of government they don't forget it entirely, and when the opportunity arises to get it back ...

Let's say the Americans, for all our latter day decadence, have had more than a 'whiff' of this experiment. Whatever comes down the road here, they won't lose the instinct for what they had too easily. It would take three or four generations of totalitarianism here to wipe out those memories, and even then, it's not wiped out for good - you have that irksome document called "constitution" which would take a hell of a lot of totalitarian whitewashing in order to become truly invisible to future generations.

I question your conclusion there C1ue. Methinks we spoiled Americans have more of this thing in our collective memory than any Russian.

[tree]

Re: Confidential document said to warn of conflict or revolution ahead for America

Men, men.
Pay attention, please.
The violence is already here. Mothers and fathers are taking out their frustration on each other, and killing their children. The news in Washington, D.C. seems to be constantly full of such murders. Three children killed the other day, etc., father out of work, pediatrician mother.
There will be mass demonstrations, marches, etc. Will this lead anywhere?
Remember, Townsend plan movement led to Social Security, yes?
I always have wanted to know more about those camps Haliburton (sp) built. Where are they? What are they? Anyone in them? They sound too strange to be true, yet nothing I've read indicates they do not exist. Have I missed something?
Well, I think Eric Janszen will just have to be in charge. But, you know, he doesn't know absolutely everything.
The cult of EJ.
I think EJ is about to find out that being famous isn't fun, at least not if you have a brain in your head. And he does!

[rj1]

Re: Confidential document said to warn of conflict or revolution ahead for America

Let's say the Americans, for all our latter day decadence, have had more than a 'whiff' of this experiment. Whatever comes down the road here, they won't lose the instinct for what they had too easily. It would take three or four generations of totalitarianism here to wipe out those memories, and even then, it's not wiped out for good - you have that irksome document called "constitution" which would take a hell of a lot of totalitarian whitewashing in order to become truly invisible to future generations.

History says otherwise. Dictatorship has always come out of democracy.

Greece was a democracy until Athens tried to centralize Greek leadership in Athens and taxed the outlying Greek cities and regions to finance Athens' largesse. The Peloponnesian War started over this pretty much, the Spartans won, and made the area a dictatorship they controlled (this is the simple version of history).

Rome was a republic, that while not truly democratic, still allowed democracy more in the Magna Carta aristocratic way. They openly cheered for Julius Caesar when the ruling triumvirate failed and Caesar crossed the Rubicon and became dictator.

I could make the same case for Germany with Hitler and Italy with Mussolini. A key part in those cases was people lost faith in democracy and transferred their hopes to a larger-than-life leader that promised to lead them out of their current troubles.

The Roman Republic lasted 465 years from the overthrow of the Roman king til Caesar was proclaimed perpetual dictator, followed by 330 years of dictatorship of rule from Rome (at which point Rome split from Constantinople). The United States is 232 years old, so we haven't even hit the halfway mark of the Roman Republic yet.

My opinion of humanity is that nothing really changes, and therefore history is not a line but is a circle. There's a natural arrogant tendency in human beings to think that they are smarter than their parents and their ancestors (not on science or technology, but on society), however history has shown time and time again that that is just not true. So someday the U.S. democracy will fall and will be replaced by a dictator in a time of great upheavel in the nation. Could be in 20 years, could be in 200 years, I don't know. The dictator will be allowed by most of the country cause in the most likely scenario, like Caesar, he will be highly popular with the populace and they will let him in a period of internal problems.

For a fictional example of this, see the second and third Star Wars movies Attack of the Clones and Return of the Sith, and how the democratic Galactic Republic "which lasted thousands of years" is allowed to be charmed into giving Chancellor Palpetine universal and perpetual powers.

That said, this paper that Madsen talks about is most likely false.

[tree]

Re: Confidential document said to warn of conflict or revolution ahead for America

History says otherwise. Dictatorship has always come out of democracy.

Greece was a democracy until Athens tried to centralize Greek leadership in Athens and taxed the outlying Greek cities and regions to finance Athens' largesse. The Peloponnesian War started over this pretty much, the Spartans won, and made the area a dictatorship they controlled (this is the simple version of history).

Rome was a republic, that while not truly democratic, still allowed democracy more in the Magna Carta aristocratic way. They openly cheered for Julius Caesar when the ruling triumvirate failed and Caesar crossed the Rubicon and became dictator.

I could make the same case for Germany with Hitler and Italy with Mussolini. A key part in those cases was people lost faith in democracy and transferred their hopes to a larger-than-life leader that promised to lead them out of their current troubles.

The Roman Republic lasted 465 years from the overthrow of the Roman king til Caesar was proclaimed perpetual dictator, followed by 330 years of dictatorship of rule from Rome (at which point Rome split from Constantinople). The United States is 232 years old, so we haven't even hit the halfway mark of the Roman Republic yet.

My opinion of humanity is that nothing really changes, and therefore history is not a line but is a circle. There's a natural arrogant tendency in human beings to think that they are smarter than their parents and their ancestors (not on science or technology, but on society), however history has shown time and time again that that is just not true. So someday the U.S. democracy will fall and will be replaced by a dictator in a time of great upheavel in the nation. Could be in 20 years, could be in 200 years, I don't know. The dictator will be allowed by most of the country cause in the most likely scenario, like Caesar, he will be highly popular with the populace and they will let him in a period of internal problems.

For a fictional example of this, see the second and third Star Wars movies Attack of the Clones and Return of the Sith, and how the democratic Galactic Republic "which lasted thousands of years" is allowed to be charmed into giving Chancellor Palpetine universal and perpetual powers.

That said, this paper that Madsen talks about is most likely false.

I like it: E.J. for dictator!
Do we get, um, an in with him?

[flintlock]

Re: Confidential document said to warn of conflict or revolution ahead for America

Um, why do you think Russians don't have guns?

Between the conscription, and the siloviki, and what not, there are plenty of guns in Russia. There just isn't an NRA since Russians do not have the Liberal Elite and therefore don't require an opposing organization.

Well, I was really speaking in historical terms. The average Russian peasant did not have access to firearms. It wasn't until WWI, when millions of peasants were mobilized, that any change was possible in Russia. It was actually the presence of these armed peasants in the Army that made the revolution possible.
In contrast, Americans have had access to firearms since the beginning. Therefore the government that grew up with it had to take a far different approach than the heavy handed Russian monarchy. So consequently, the Russian people historically have had far more tolerance for authoritarianism.

[medved]

Re: Confidential document said to warn of conflict or revolution ahead for America

Well, I was really speaking in historical terms. The average Russian peasant did not have access to firearms. It wasn't until WWI, when millions of peasants were mobilized, that any change was possible in Russia. It was actually the presence of these armed peasants in the Army that made the revolution possible.
In contrast, Americans have had access to firearms since the beginning. Therefore the government that grew up with it had to take a far different approach than the heavy handed Russian monarchy. So consequently, the Russian people historically have had far more tolerance for authoritarianism.

This is not the main difference, although it, definitely, matters. The main difference is between the American tradition of limited government and the Russian belief in good government. This difference still exists, but gets smaller by the day. More and more Americans now want the gov't to solve every problem in life. This is where danger lies, because every government solution comes at the expense of people's freedom.

[johnnybill45]

Re: Confidential document said to warn of conflict or revolution ahead for America

The only way Americans would revolt if they turned off American Idol, YouTube and Video Games. Sad...but true.

[metalman]

Re: Confidential document said to warn of conflict or revolution ahead for America

The only way Americans would revolt if they turned off American Idol, YouTube and Video Games. Sad...but true.

so i'm looking at your reply and itulip is running an ad for 'russianeuro.com' with an image of a young woman smiling over it.

they'd have to shut off the porn, too.

[c1ue]

Re: Confidential document said to warn of conflict or revolution ahead for America

Let's say the Americans, for all our latter day decadence, have had more than a 'whiff' of this experiment. Whatever comes down the road here, they won't lose the instinct for what they had too easily.

I think RJ already beat this horse to death, but I'll add this:

The America (and Americans) we have (and are) today resembles the America of pre-WWI as little as it resembles the America of 1950.

To assume somehow that the legacy of Americans today is as before, is just plain silly. Americans in 1950 or 1910 would have been horrified by the idea of having everything imported - for that matter would have sneered at the city slickers we almost all are.

We today are as far from a Whiskey Rebellion as can be.

For that matter, where is Italy today? That hotbed of democracy and republicanism? Perhaps it has been attenuated by the 1500 years of roman emperors following the (maybe) 500 years of republicanism, with some Garibaldi, Jacobites, and Mussolini thrown in.

Sorry couldn't resist.

[tombat1913]

Re: Confidential document said to warn of conflict or revolution ahead for America

I always have wanted to know more about those camps Haliburton (sp) built. Where are they? What are they? Anyone in them? They sound too strange to be true, yet nothing I've read indicates they do not exist. Have I missed something?

Executive order 11051: Specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.
Executive order 11921: Allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and flow of money in the U.S.A. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months.
Executive order 11004: Allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.

PETER DALE SCOTT / Commentary / Pacific News Service 31 Jan 2006

BERKELEY, CA — A Halliburton subsidiary has just received a $385 million contract from the Department of Homeland Security to provide "temporary detention and processing capabilities." The contract — announced Jan. 24 by the engineering and construction firm KBR — calls for preparing for "an emergency influx of immigrants, or to support the rapid development of new programs" in the event of other emergencies, such as "a natural disaster."

[kingcopper]

Re: Confidential document said to warn of conflict or revolution ahead for America

these KBR camps sound like temporary shelter for massive immigration issues; such as the immigration of as many Israelis' as possible? Bush is such a monger he might poke at Iran during his last six months and Israel could become very hot indeed as a result?

[friendly_jacek]

Re: Confidential document said to warn of conflict or revolution ahead for America

The Roman Republic lasted 465 years from the overthrow of the Roman king til Caesar was proclaimed perpetual dictator, followed by 330 years of dictatorship of rule from Rome (at which point Rome split from Constantinople). The United States is 232 years old, so we haven't even hit the halfway mark of the Roman Republic yet.

The things are not bad yet for people to embrace directorship, but 10-20 years ago from now, when the new generation is taxed to the max to pay for the bills and debts of baby boomers, who knows?

Trying to compare timing now and then is probable not going to work as things change much faster nowadays.

[dbarberic]

Re: Confidential document said to warn of conflict or revolution ahead for America

Wow... how this this get so off topic from the original post?

[flintlock]

Re: Confidential document said to warn of conflict or revolution ahead for America

I couldn't agree more.