Is Ford dumping Europe (Production not sales)?

[Mega]

I no real information on this except over the years I seen spy shots of all Fords products at were still years off.
I watched the Puma go from spy shot to production................yet I see nothing for the Next Focus or fiesta.

Ford killed those cars in the US, thus I wonder if they going to ditch Euro production & just import?

Mike

[GRG55]

Re: Is Ford dumping Europe (Production not sales)?

I no real information on this except over the years I seen spy shots of all Fords products at were still years off.
I watched the Puma go from spy shot to production................yet I see nothing for the Next Focus or fiesta.

Ford killed those cars in the US, thus I wonder if they going to ditch Euro production & just import?

Mike

They are all stampeding off to figure out how to mass market EVs Mike. Ford is doubtless frustrated the virus has pushed back delivery schedules for the Mach E.

Looks like Tesla is going to get some stiff competition from VW.

As they switch to EVs and stage out RICE vehicles there will be far fewer manufacturing plants, and some countries that have historically manufactured cars, such as Canada, may be completely out of that business, or only select component suppliers, as this new age dawns. What GM started doing with plant capacity last year foreshadowed this coming change.

[Mega]

Re: Is Ford dumping Europe (Production not sales)?

Agreed, when being forced to build Ev's VW did a computer model of what a EV only production line would look like...........they were shocked at how many jobs would DIE. They did message the government on this, but they simply don't care.

While we face deflation (& M0 is crashing right now) they wouldn't give a sh1t........but if the bond market turns & inflation arrives that's when the troubles begin.

Mike

[GRG55]

Re: Is Ford dumping Europe (Production not sales)?

Agreed, when being forced to build Ev's VW did a computer model of what a EV only production line would look like...........they were shocked at how many jobs would DIE. They did message the government on this, but they simply don't care.

While we face deflation (& M0 is crashing right now) they wouldn't give a sh1t........but if the bond market turns & inflation arrives that's when the troubles begin.

Mike

What Tesla proved in spades is that one of the previous barriers to entry into the car manufacturing business, large amounts of capital, no longer exists. Tesla, as a company, might ultimately go the way of Bricklin or DeLorean, but it has outlasted both by quite a bit because it has continued to be able to secure all the successive capital injections it needed to stay alive.

As they re-tool for the next generation of passenger car the established manufacturers are going to automate even more than they have already if they want to retain production in places like Germany and the USA.

[jk]

Re: Is Ford dumping Europe (Production not sales)?

As they re-tool for the next generation of passenger car the established manufacturers are going to automate even more than they have already if they want to retain production in places like Germany and the USA.

shortening supply chains to the point of making them domestic will not create many more jobs; it will be a boon to robotics and automation.

[Milton Kuo]

Re: Is Ford dumping Europe (Production not sales)?

shortening supply chains to the point of making them domestic will not create many more jobs; it will be a boon to robotics and automation.

It will reduce the yearly trade deficit and not enrich countries that have hostile intentions toward the U.S. Meanwhile, assuming the U.S. doesn't continue doing the same stupid stuff previous administrations have done, someone has to design and manufacture the robots and machines to make the machines. Globalization where the primary end results are wage and regulatory arbitrage are not beneficial to the U.S. at all unless you're looking to further increase the GINI coefficient.

[jk]

Re: Is Ford dumping Europe (Production not sales)?

It will reduce the yearly trade deficit and not enrich countries that have hostile intentions toward the U.S. Meanwhile, assuming the U.S. doesn't continue doing the same stupid stuff previous administrations have done, someone has to design and manufacture the robots and machines to make the machines. Globalization where the primary end results are wage and regulatory arbitrage are not beneficial to the U.S. at all unless you're looking to further increase the GINI coefficient.

i agree. my point was not to devalue the idea of shortening and making-domestic supply chains; it was to deflate any unrealistic expectations people might have about employment

[Techdread]

Re: Is Ford dumping Europe (Production not sales)?

It will reduce the yearly trade deficit and not enrich countries that have hostile intentions toward the U.S. Meanwhile, assuming the U.S. doesn't continue doing the same stupid stuff previous administrations have done, someone has to design and manufacture the robots and machines to make the machines. Globalization where the primary end results are wage and regulatory arbitrage are not beneficial to the U.S. at all unless you're looking to further increase the GINI coefficient.

Haha funny joke do you really think if everything was made in the US it would materially change the GINI coefficient?

I can just imagine it now the FAAMG's stopping outsourcing their blue-collar staff so they can do a Henry Ford and pay them a liveable wage.

The fact is the US already earns enough of the worlds GDP, you have just failed to spread what you earn properly, if you think bringing back manufacturing jobs will do the trick you are sadly mistaken.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Is Ford dumping Europe (Production not sales)?

Haha funny joke do you really think if everything was made in the US it would materially change the GINI coefficient?

I can just imagine it now the FAAMG's stopping outsourcing their blue-collar staff so they can do a Henry Ford and pay them a liveable wage.

The fact is the US already earns enough of the worlds GDP, you have just failed to spread what you earn properly, if you think bringing back manufacturing jobs will do the trick you are sadly mistaken.

You make a good point Thechdread. In the U.S we accept it as proven fact that manufacturing jobs are jobs with high wages and benefits.
It's almost become a cliche, we all just assume it's correct because so many of our fathers and grandfathers had manufacturing jobs with great pay. Those jobs went overseas, so we assume that if we get them back they will pay as well as they once did. We need to stop the lazy thinking habit that we can fix generally low wages by bringing back manufacturing jobs.

The jobs were sent overseas to drop the wages. If they come back, they will come back with poor pay. The root problem is relentless downward pressure on wages, not the location of the job. It's not just manufacturing jobs, it's professional jobs and service jobs too. Here's a 50 year chart of labor's share of GDP.

[jk]

Re: Is Ford dumping Europe (Production not sales)?

manufacturing may come back to the u.s. but manufacturing JOBS won't. instead there will be a lot of robots and a handful of skilled technicians to run and maintain those robots.

[btw, not sure if i'm repeating things i've said elsewhere, so forgive me if i am.] a large reason for the decline in lower paid and moderately paid jobs is the cost of employer-paid healthcare. a $150k employee who requires a $20k family health plan is a very different proposition from a $30k laborer who requires a $20k family health plan. add the decline of unions, and the movement of manufacturing to non-union states in the south, and of course the fed's continuous effort to boost the prices of financial assets. lots of reasons for labor's share of gdp to go down.

[Milton Kuo]

Re: Is Ford dumping Europe (Production not sales)?

[btw, not sure if i'm repeating things i've said elsewhere, so forgive me if i am.] a large reason for the decline in lower paid and moderately paid jobs is the cost of employer-paid healthcare. a $150k employee who requires a $20k family health plan is a very different proposition from a $30k laborer who requires a $20k family health plan. add the decline of unions, and the movement of manufacturing to non-union states in the south, and of course the fed's continuous effort to boost the prices of financial assets. lots of reasons for labor's share of gdp to go down.

That's talking about full-time jobs with full benefits. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible for a manufacturing sector to have pseudo full-time jobs without health care benefits as that's what the U.S. essentially has with all the crappy, useless, and likely unnecessary McJobs in the current environment. The thing with bringing back manufacturing jobs into the U.S. is that, coupled with better trade and labor policy, it would actually raise wages.

Products manufactured domestically would not be able to dump the industrial waste into the rivers or run factories that periodically have explosions that maim or kill people. Prevention of those catastrophes costs money and will show itself in higher prices for products. Eventually, Henry Ford's insight that workers must earn enough in wages to purchase the products they manufacture would be rediscovered. In the meantime, the workers would be earning at least minimum wage and would be working in a semi-skilled job, which increases the possibilities of innovation arising from being deeply familiar with the entire chain of how a product is made. [This is an argument that Andy Grove made many years ago.]

It seems like an impossible task but another thing the U.S. must do to prevent further harm to the less well-off is to end the importation of foreign labor. In the current environment, the unskilled jobs have wages depressed by illegal aliens despite there being no real shortage of labor. The only shortage of labor is that which can be abused (physically and financially) and paid wages that are only livable in a far less expensive country. Poorer Americans do not really have the option of moving to a less expensive country.

While Trump has done a rather haphazard job of slapping import tariffs on countries, I really think that is the right way to address unemployment of the formerly middle class in this country. Tariffs should be levied on imports based on the exporting country's (or country of origin of the imported product's parts) standard of living. Those countries with an equivalent or higher standard of living would have either no tariff or a tariff equal to whatever is levied on American exports. Countries that have a lower standard of living should be taxed to take into account lower costs due to lack of environmental or labor regulations along with other shenanigans some countries seem to like playing.

In the end, the countries that can efficiently make a product and/or create a product with superior qualities will capture market share in the U.S. Tariffs alone will not guarantee that domestic producers will be winners; they will still have to earn it. In all likelihood, we'll lose our mountains of "cheap SHIT" but that's actually a good thing and the country, in the longer run, will be far better off for it.

What it comes down to is that I just don't see automation creating mass unemployment, not for decades. There's been enough cheap money flying about now for over a decade and I don't see anyone even close to eliminating all the McJobs in the country. You'd think that at least some categories of McJobs would have been eliminated by now due to automation.

[GRG55]

Re: Is Ford dumping Europe (Production not sales)?

manufacturing may come back to the u.s. but manufacturing JOBS won't. instead there will be a lot of robots and a handful of skilled technicians to run and maintain those robots...

^^^This.

Labour has steadily become a less important part of the economy. And it's not going to change, no matter how much people want to imagine some "fair wage" is possible. The very fact UBI is being discussed seriously as a political policy is proof of that recognition.

When Tesla can upgrade their car by downloading software updates by satellite who needs a dealer service center with mechanics? That's where we are headed.

[Down Under]

Re: Is Ford dumping Europe (Production not sales)?

When Tesla can upgrade their car by downloading software updates by satellite who needs a dealer service center with mechanics? That's where we are headed.

What about a filter and oil change? Brake pads, and so the list goes on...

[GRG55]

Re: Is Ford dumping Europe (Production not sales)?

What about a filter and oil change? Brake pads, and so the list goes on...

Filter and an oil change? For a Tesla? I don't think so...

The braking includes regenerative braking so the pads will last much longer than a conventional car.

[Down Under]

Re: Is Ford dumping Europe (Production not sales)?

Filter and an oil change? For a Tesla? I don't think so...

The braking includes regenerative braking so the pads will last much longer than a conventional car.

Okay, I picked a bad example without thinking. But, you can't tell me there's nothing that will not need replacing...

And, the comms will be cyber safe from being hacked. A lot of ifs and buts in that claim. If I owned a Tesla, I'd sure prefer it getting updated via a cable, but maybe I'm too security conscious...

I'm sure you know this, but I'm bored and just having a bit of fun here