It's Dead, Jim.

[shiny!]

Local news is reporting on numerous locals who filed their tax returns as far back as February but never got their refunds. Not only that, but the IRS doesn't even have records of receiving their filings.

Clicking on Where's my Refund? or What's my Status? brings up nothing. They have postal receipts showing the envelopes went to the correct address. They've phoned the IRS over 50 times. They just keep getting recordings that the IRS can't take calls. They even re-filed in April, again with postal receipts. IRS still has no record of their filings. There is no one there.

Seems to me that once a nation can no longer collect taxes it's effectively dead, isn't it?

[GRG55]

Re: It's Dead, Jim.

Local news is reporting on numerous locals who filed their tax returns as far back as February but never got their refunds. Not only that, but the IRS doesn't even have records of receiving their filings.

Clicking on Where's my Refund? or What's my Status? brings up nothing. They have postal receipts showing the envelopes went to the correct address. They've phoned the IRS over 50 times. They just keep getting recordings that the IRS can't take calls. They even re-filed in April, again with postal receipts. IRS still has no record of their filings. There is no one there.

Seems to me that once a nation can no longer collect taxes it's effectively dead, isn't it?

Doesnt sound like they had any difficulty collecting the taxes. Refunding any part of an overpayment? Well that's another matter.

Unless you're Harvard or Ruth's Hospitality, in which case tax dollars will be dispensed nearly instantly.

[Milton Kuo]

Re: It's Dead, Jim.

Local news is reporting on numerous locals who filed their tax returns as far back as February but never got their refunds. Not only that, but the IRS doesn't even have records of receiving their filings.

Clicking on Where's my Refund? or What's my Status? brings up nothing. They have postal receipts showing the envelopes went to the correct address. They've phoned the IRS over 50 times. They just keep getting recordings that the IRS can't take calls. They even re-filed in April, again with postal receipts. IRS still has no record of their filings. There is no one there.

Seems to me that once a nation can no longer collect taxes it's effectively dead, isn't it?

Au contraire. The taxpayers in your commentary above are expecting a tax refund; they are not remitting taxes owed. The United States is, indeed, collecting taxes and I can assure you that the government is very quickly cashing checks mailed in for taxes owed. As for not being able to collect taxes, the IRS has been one step ahead of everybody for a long time. Automatic Withholding.

[bpr]

Re: It's Dead, Jim.

Local news is reporting on numerous locals who filed their tax returns as far back as February but never got their refunds. Not only that, but the IRS doesn't even have records of receiving their filings.

Clicking on Where's my Refund? or What's my Status? brings up nothing. They have postal receipts showing the envelopes went to the correct address. They've phoned the IRS over 50 times. They just keep getting recordings that the IRS can't take calls. They even re-filed in April, again with postal receipts. IRS still has no record of their filings. There is no one there.

Seems to me that once a nation can no longer collect taxes it's effectively dead, isn't it?

Refunds are silly; show me a business owner that gets a refund.

Side rant: if they voted for Reagan ("I'm from the federal government and I'm here to help") or any of his right-wing progeny they deserve to wait on hold until the undertaker comes. Starve the beast, then overpay the beast and expect it to regurgitate food onto your plate? Bugger off, you voted in a government that is designed to bleed us all dry.

Get off the phone, dig your own hole and free up the lines for Nader/Gore voters.

[shiny!]

Re: It's Dead, Jim.

Au contraire. The taxpayers in your commentary above are expecting a tax refund; they are not remitting taxes owed. The United States is, indeed, collecting taxes and I can assure you that the government is very quickly cashing checks mailed in for taxes owed. As for not being able to collect taxes, the IRS has been one step ahead of everybody for a long time. Automatic Withholding.

DUH! You're right. I was thinking backwards.
Now that they're not getting tax revenue from all the suddenly unemployed, how long will it be before they start bail-ins from the bank accounts of anyone deemed "wealthy"?

[Mega]

Re: It's Dead, Jim.

The FED, like the Bank Of England will NEVER do that.....they have a printing press

[shiny!]

Re: It's Dead, Jim.

The FED, like the Bank Of England will NEVER do that.....they have a printing press

Then why must we continue paying taxes at all? They already print whatever they want when it's to go to the big guys.

[Milton Kuo]

Re: It's Dead, Jim.

Then why must we continue paying taxes at all? They already print whatever they want when it's to go to the big guys.

It creates demand for US dollars from people who do productive work or have valuable assets. Also, without taxes, it becomes quite a bit more difficult to steal the wealth of people through inflation.

[Woodsman]

Re: It's Dead, Jim.

Then why must we continue paying taxes at all? They already print whatever they want when it's to go to the big guys.

It's a power vector for politicians. A tool to reward friends and punish enemies.

Since all taxes inevitably produce social and economic changes, the question at issue isnot whether taxation should be used as an instrument of social control but how it may be used more intelligently to achieve consciously sought social objectives. The greatest present obstacle to the intelligent use of taxation as an instrument of social control is our lack of knowledge, concerning the incidence and econonmic effects of taxes. Even in the light of our present knowledge, however, it is apparent that certain of our tax policies operate to defeat objectives which we are trying to achieve through public spending. It is also apparent that the intelligent use of taxation as an instrument of social control will be facilitated if we rid ourselves of taxes whose incidence and effects are uncertain and transfer their burden to the personal income tax.

Taxation as an Instrument of Social Control
Clarence Heer
American Journal of Sociology
Vol. 42, No. 4 (Jan., 1937), pp. 484-492
Published by: The University of Chicago Press
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2767707

Taxes also help temper demands by the Hoi Polloi for public goods and services.

Taxation as an Instrument of Public Policy
Lawrence J. Lau, Ph. D., D. Soc. Sc. (hon.)
Kwoh-Ting Li Professor of Economic Development
Department of Economics, Stanford University

[shiny!]

Re: It's Dead, Jim.

It's a power vector for politicians. A tool to reward friends and punish enemies.



Taxes also help temper demands by the Hoi Polloi for public goods and services.

And there you have it.

If recent events have shown anything, it's that fiat money is losing even the pretense of that it represents something of value. The Goldbugs say money should be based on a gold standard. Armstrong says that money doesn't need to be based on gold because it is actually a reflection of the productive capacity of a nation's people.

Nixon broke the gold standard. The lockdown response to Covid-19 broke the productive capacity of the people. Which leaves money based on nothing but confidence. Endless, massive money printing based on nothing but a quaint notion that it will be redeemable for something. And when that confidence is broken...

Since money has very nearly lost all meaning, your explanation that taxation remains now as a tool of control makes sense. One of the best schemes "they" had to make the the income tax "just palatable enough" was the promise of tax refunds for dutiful tax payers. But even that pitiful motivation system is failing.

I sense we are on the very edge of a paradigm shift with the way we regard money, but doubt we will make the shift. I keep going back to Tom Robbins:

"Whenever a state or an individual cited 'insufficient funds' as an excuse for neglecting this important thing or that, it was indicative of the extent to which reality had been distorted by the abstract lens of wealth. During periods of so-called economic depression, for example, societies suffered for want of all manner of essential goods, yet investigation almost invariably disclosed that there were plenty of goods available. Plenty of coal in the ground, corn in the fields, wool on the sheep. What was missing was not materials but an abstract unit of measurement called 'money.' It was akin to a starving woman with a sweet tooth lamenting that she couldn't bake a cake because she didn't have any ounces. She had butter, flour, eggs, milk, and sugar, she just didn't have any ounces, any pinches, any pints. The loony legacy of money was that the arithmetic by which things were measured had become more valuable than the things themselves."

[GRG55]

Re: It's Dead, Jim.

Then why must we continue paying taxes at all? They already print whatever they want when it's to go to the big guys.

Bingo! For generations governments have treated work as a sinful activity, on par with smoking or imbibing alcohol. They've been taxing it to try to discourage people from doing it. Clearly they have belatedly come to their senses and recognize that's been a failed policy. Better to send a payment to everyone to encourage them to stay home. And for good measure legislate said incarceration and send the constabulary out in search of offenders.
Nirvana!

[jk]

Re: It's Dead, Jim.

filed my federal return about 4/25, got my refund 5/5. all electronic.

[shiny!]

Re: It's Dead, Jim.

filed my federal return about 4/25, got my refund 4/5. all electronic.

I think people who filed electronically like you might have fared better than the poor people who mailed their returns in.

My K-1 forms always come so late, by the time they arrived I was already getting worried about sitting in a crowded tax preparer's office, so I didn't get mine done.

[jk]

Re: It's Dead, Jim.

I think people who filed electronically like you might have fared better than the poor people who mailed their returns in.

My K-1 forms always come so late, by the time they arrived I was already getting worried about sitting in a crowded tax preparer's office, so I didn't get mine done.

i've used turbo tax for MANY years. it's not expensive- often on sale in january or so, or at a discount from certain banks or brokerages. it's really straightforward. they also have an online edition, no need to download software if you don't want to. you could even use someone else's computer with the online version. my k-1s also come very late. you can do the other sections first, then add the k-1's when you get them. you don't have to do it all at once. you never need to sit in a tax preparer's office, crowded or not. and unless your preparer works for free, i'm sure the software is cheaper.

---------
btw- there was a typo in my original post, now corrected. even filing electronically won't get you a refund 3 weeks BEFORE filing.

[shiny!]

Re: It's Dead, Jim.

i've used turbo tax for MANY years. it's not expensive- often on sale in january or so, or at a discount from certain banks or brokerages. it's really straightforward. they also have an online edition, no need to download software if you don't want to. you could even use someone else's computer with the online version. my k-1s also come very late. you can do the other sections first, then add the k-1's when you get them. you don't have to do it all at once. you never need to sit in a tax preparer's office, crowded or not. and unless your preparer works for free, i'm sure the software is cheaper.

---------
btw- there was a typo in my original post, now corrected. even filing electronically won't get you a refund 3 weeks BEFORE filing.

Thanks, jk. That's a very good idea. I'm looking into it. Already having a panic attack, but looking into it nevertheless. You write scrips for Xanax, right?