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Michael Moore has UPSET the Left

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  • #16
    Re: Michael Moore has UPSET the Left

    Originally posted by globaleconomicollaps View Post
    ...So they quite correctly understand the environmentalist movement as elitist and racist...
    I'll give you 50% on that (which is not enough for a passing grade). The accusation of racism is completely absurd. About as credible as the accusation Bernie Sanders is a sexist.

    Turning to the part you got correct, the "movers and shakers' in the environmental movement have certainly shifted towards the moneyed elite (even Michael Moore is worth some serious coin).

    The original objections of the nascent environmental movement were characterized by the Greenpeace-type issues of anti-nuclear testing (Amchitka and Mururoa Atoll), anti-whaling, ocean dumping of nuclear waste, chemical soil and water contamination, industrial air pollution and so forth. Difficult to attract much funding, other than charity contributions from broad-based committed supporters, over these issues. I grew up in Vancouver, Canada and used to read Robert Hunter's column about environmentalism in the Vancouver Sun newspaper circa 1969-70, before he went on to become a co-founder of Greenpeace in my home city.

    The elite money interests from Wall Street, the City of London and the Davos crowd only got involved once all that was superseded as the movement was captured by the secular global religion of climate change (the Reverend Al Gore presiding). That's what has created the all important "scalability" for the financial interests - the ability to invest hundreds*of*millions*of*Dollars*at*a*time. "Saving our Whales" is not nearly as lucrative as "Saving our Planet".

    This is a view I have expressed before on this forum, and formed from my interactions with private equity "energy" fund managers, who almost universally eschew any investment in conventional energy projects or assets and focus exclusively on "renewable" - solar, wind and biogas (I don't happen to know any that are funding biomass). They love the regulated returns, the government mandated "green" content requirements imposed on utilities, the European Development Fund and World Bank credit guarantees for such projects in developing nations, the creditworthiness of long term (often 20 years!) offtake contracts with regulated utilities, and so forth. It's unbelievable what a scam this is, and who is really making the money at the expense of ratepayers and governments all over the world.

    And what is the one thing they can do to make it even more lucrative? Lobby for the boycott of investments in capital intensive "dirty" energy. Where's that money going to go instead? Yep, right where they can rake off 2 & 20 building more "green". The film didn't delve into it in enough detail in my view, but they got the basics correct.

    Originally posted by globaleconomicollaps View Post
    This entire discussion is moot. The world is running out of easily accessible oil. It may not look like it right now but we got a glimpse of what is in store in 2008 when the oil price topped $160/barrel...
    This is complete nonsense.

    The world has more easily accessible oil now than it did in 2008. A LOT more. That's part of the reason the price is no longer $160. The other, equally important part of that is the US$.

    Oil prices are deeply cyclical. There's a multi-decade history of its secular cyclicality going back to Nixon's removing the gold backing of the US$ in 1971.
    And therein lies the other part of the reason - the relative exchange rate of the "unanchored" US$, which is how oil is priced. The $ exchange fluctuations aren't the only reason oil is cyclical, but it is coincident with most of the extremes and the extreme first derivative rate-of-change events in crude prices.

    Have a look at the US$ index chart attached. Note the US$ exchange rate in April 2008, just before nominal oil prices peaked, hit 84, the same bottom it had fallen to only twice before in the previous 3+ decades since Nixon closed the "gold window". Look where the exchange rate is, in contrast, today.

    I believe it is former Saudi Oil Minister Sheikh Ahmed Zaki Yamani that is attributed with the quip "The stone age came to an end not for lack of stones, and the oil age will end, but not for lack of oil".

    In the fullness of time, and with the benefit of hindsight, he will be proved correct. We aren't going to run out of oil. What we are going through today might the precursor to the end of the oil age...we eventually just run out of demand.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by GRG55; April 29, 2020, 08:03 PM.

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    • #17
      Re: Michael Moore has UPSET the Left

      i date the environmental movement back to rachel carson's "silent spring." getting rid of ddt and passing the clean water act [no more rivers catching on fire] were improvements for everyone.

      i think the elitism of the environmental movement is a product of the elite's not being able to buy common goods, e.g. clean air, for themselves. they have satisfied the personal needs - food, clothing, shelter- that preoccupy the less well off. the elite can buy a variety of luxuries, but they can't buy e.g. pollution-free air, less extreme weather or [if they unrealistically lived in flint, michigan] lead-free piped water, except through the political process.

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      • #18
        Re: Michael Moore has UPSET the Left

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        • #19
          Re: Michael Moore has UPSET the Left

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          • #20
            Re: Michael Moore has UPSET the Left

            https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertb.../#43c0fd23e0ac

            Stanford Prof. Can’t Muzzle ‘Planet Of The Humans,’ Must Pay Defendants’ Legal Fees In SLAPP Suit


            ...The fact that Moore — the most successful documentary-film-maker in America as well as its most famous liberal who’s not a politician – would produce a film that attacks wind energy, solar energy, the Sierra Club, Al Gore, David Blood, Bill McKibben, and Vinod Khosla represents a rupture in left-leaning orthodoxy about energy and climate change. For causing so much trouble, Moore and Gibbs are being branded as apostates. To my ear, the outrage coming from Fox, McKibben, and others to Planet of the Humans sound like Greta Thunberg’s now-famous cri de coeur: “How dare you!

            But the effort to gag Planet of the Humans reveals something more sinister: the refusal by leading climate activists and academics to have an honest discussion about the limits of renewable energy and why renewables alone cannot save us from climate change or solve the problem of energy poverty. As a friend of mine put it, “The climatocracy can’t tolerate debate or disagreement.” Indeed, the belief that many high-profile climate activists and academics have in renewable energy borders on the cultish...

            ...Attempting to shut down debate and demonizing the opposition is one of the hallmarks of the all-renewable-energy tribe. And there’s no small bit of irony in the fact that Fox’s effort to censor Planet of the Humans was launched just two days after his ally, Jacobson, was reproached by a federal court for trying to intimidate one of his critics by filing a frivolous lawsuit against him. On April 20, Jacobson was ordered to pay the legal fees of Chris Clack, the Colorado mathematician who Jacobson sued in 2017 for $10 million on claims that Clack had defamed him. Jacobson’s lawsuit, which also named the National Academy of Sciences, was a classic example of a SLAPP suit, or strategic litigation against public participation. What was Clack’s sin? He, along with nearly two dozen other prominent scientists, debunked the claims that Jacobson was making about – what else? — renewable energy...

            ...Rather than engage in a civil debate with Clack, Jacobson sued him for defamation. He also sued the National Academy of Sciences for $10 million claiming breach of contract. Then, in February 2018, Jacobson suddenly withdrew his suit and the litigation was largely forgotten. But on April 20, (as journalist James Temple first reported on Twitter), District of Columbia Superior Court Judge Elizabeth Carroll Wingo issued a ruling that sided with Clack and the National Academy of Sciences, and ordered Jacobson to pay their legal fees.In her decision, Wingo (who was appointed to the bench by President Barack Obama in 2015) noted that the District of Columbia’s Anti-SLAPP Act prohibits the filing of lawsuits aimed at limiting public participation...

            ...In her conclusion, Wingo wrote that the “Anti-SLAPP Act was enacted to protect the right of advocacy on issues of public interest against lawsuits intended to punish or censor speech...

            ...Thus, when counting the plaintiffs’ costs and his own lawyer bills, Jacobson could be facing legal fees of $1 million or more for filing a SLAPP suit that should have never been filed in the first place.

            The punchline here is that despite efforts by high-profile activists and academics to stifle debate, films like Planet of the Humans aren’t going to be stopped. Instead, the film — and the controversy it has ignited — shows how badly we need an honest discussion about how we are going to meet demand for electricity, the world’s most important and fastest-growing form of energy...

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            • #21
              Re: Michael Moore has UPSET the Left

              Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
              Instead, the film — and the controversy it has ignited — shows how badly we need an honest discussion about how we are going to meet demand for electricity, the world’s most important and fastest-growing form of energy...
              Seems they already decided how without discussion:

              https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/india...or/ar-BB13pVsR

              Coronavirus (COVID-19): The International Energy Agency (IEA) has released a report detailing the impact of Covid-19 — which it has called a “once-in-a-century crisis” — on global energy demands and CO2 emissions. With lockdowns imposed in several countries, transportation such as road and air travel has been largely restricted, due to which global energy demands have plummeted. Further, since millions of people are now confined to their homes, domestic electricity demand has elevated as commercial demand has fallen.

              As per the report, countries in full lockdown are seeing an average decline of 25 per cent in energy demand per week, while in those with a partial lockdown, the fall in energy demand is about 18 per cent per week. This may not be a reason to celebrate as it is expected that emissions will soar once economies restart, unless governments take a conscious decision to change the sources of energy.
              Covid-19 and the energy sector: What the IEA report says

              The report estimates that the global demand for oil could drop by nine per cent on average this year, which will return oil consumption to 2012 levels. As a result of lockdowns, road transport has dropped between 50-75 per cent with the average global road transport activity falling to 50 per cent of what it was during this time in 2019.

              Aviation activity the world over dropped by 60 per cent at the end of March 2020. The International Air Transport Association (IATA) expects the flight capacity utilisation to average below 65 per cent of what it was in 2019 in the second quarter of 2020, further impacting the demand for jet fuel and kerosene.

              Coal demand could decline by eight per cent, mainly due to a fall in electricity demand of over five per cent over the course of the year.

              Every month of a full lockdown impacts electricity demand by 20 per cent on average or 1.5 per cent on an annual basis.

              The report estimates that the global demand for oil could drop by nine per cent on average this year, which will return oil consumption to 2012 levels. (Express Illustration: C R Sasikumar)

              In advanced economies, coal demand will fall by 25 per cent in the US, 20 per cent in the European Union (EU) and 5-10 per cent in Korea and Japan. In the coming months, the demand for coal will be impacted based on how its biggest consumers, such as China, recover from the crisis. “In some markets, coal demand may even grow if recoveries are faster, such as in Southeast Asia, driven by Indonesia and Vietnam,” the report states.

              Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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              • #22
                Re: Michael Moore has UPSET the Left

                But more to your point, this schism in the Left is pretty shocking. I never thought I'd see it. Very interested to see where it leads. Martin Armstrong has long predicted that the Democratic party is going to split with the next election. This might be the beginning...

                Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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                • #23
                  Re: Michael Moore has UPSET the Left

                  Don't worry Elon's here:-
                  https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...electricity-uk

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                  • #24
                    Re: Michael Moore has UPSET the Left
                    "...As per the report, countries in full lockdown are seeing an average decline of 25 per cent in energy demand per week, while in those with a partial lockdown, the fall in energy demand is about 18 per cent per week. This may not be a reason to celebrate as it is expected that emissions will soar once economies restart, unless governments take a conscious decision to change the sources of energy..."

                    And in the midst of a global health and economic crisis, exactly how are governments supposed to do that? Magic wand? Pixie dust? Hire Al Gore as a consultant? Hand out Teslas free to every household?

                    Honestly, people that spend their time writing stuff like this, going to conferences and hoping for an invitation to Davos are clueless as to the condition of large swaths of the world's citizens.

                    The ONLY way to materially reduce energy related carbon emissions quickly is to drastically reduce aggregate coal and petroleum energy consumption. That's what just happened due to the virus, and should make an interesting case study.

                    Substitution, or "change the sources of energy" is not going to move the needle quickly. Especially if total global energy consumption continues to increase, as other less developed nations attempt to emulate the industrialization success of China.

                    But if aggregate energy consumption is to be reduced by any amount that would count, it implies things that leave some people apoplectic:
                    • subsistence living and impoverishment (lack of affordable energy is one of the main contributors to this worldwide);
                    • de-industrialization, and the impoverishment of formerly stable, secure societies;
                    • de-population.


                    As much as I would like to put my faith in "technology" to solve the "carbon pollution" problem, I don't see it happening quickly. In fact technology has helped drive the cost of a barrel of oil from >$150 per bbl in 2008 to something much, much lower than that today. Although this hurts the economies of the few large oil and gas exporting nations, on the whole this should be a large boost to improving the living standards and lowering the cost of things like food all around the world.
                    Last edited by GRG55; May 04, 2020, 11:19 AM.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Michael Moore has UPSET the Left

                      You're right, of course. But I fear that de-population is the real hidden agenda. The eugenicists didn't disappear, they just put on "Climate Change" hats.

                      Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Michael Moore has UPSET the Left

                        Originally posted by shiny! View Post
                        You're right, of course. But I fear that de-population is the real hidden agenda. The eugenicists didn't disappear, they just put on "Climate Change" hats.
                        don't need eugenics or anti-population propaganda- developed countries are all reproducing below replacement rate. if the rest of the world could be made more wealthy, the same would happen there.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Michael Moore has UPSET the Left

                          Originally posted by GRG55 View Post


                          The ONLY way to materially reduce energy related carbon emissions quickly is to drastically reduce aggregate coal and petroleum energy consumption. That's what just happened due to the virus, and should make an interesting case study.

                          Substitution, or "change the sources of energy" is not going to move the needle quickly. Especially if total global energy consumption continues to increase, as other less developed nations attempt to emulate the industrialization success of China.

                          But if aggregate energy consumption is to be reduced by any amount that would count, it implies things that leave some people apoplectic:
                          • subsistence living and impoverishment (lack of affordable energy is one of the main contributors to this worldwide);
                          • de-industrialization, and the impoverishment of formerly stable, secure societies;
                          • de-population.


                          As much as I would like to put my faith in "technology" to solve the "carbon pollution" problem, I don't see it happening quickly. In fact technology has helped drive the cost of a barrel of oil from >$150 per bbl in 2008 to something much, much lower than that today. Although this hurts the economies of the few large oil and gas exporting nations, on the whole this should be a large boost to improving the living standards and lowering the cost of things like food all around the world.
                          coal plants can be converted to natural gas as an interim measure. we can have renewables too, but the big answer is "the n word."

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                          • #28
                            Re: Michael Moore has UPSET the Left

                            "They" will already taken note of the fall in oil/gas requirements........
                            "They" will now do everything they can to rearrange peoples lives, working from home via lap top.....road pricing in urban areas.......

                            Mike

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