After The Virus - What Next?

[lakedaemonian]

Re: After The Virus - What Next?

Any thoughts on whether or not online academies for children will see a surge in popularity after this? It doesn't look like public brick-and-mortar schools are faring well as online home schools, not that they were all that functional before. Online academies are built for this.

'I just can't do this.' Frustrated parents giving up on home school

Suddenly involved in their childrens' assignments for the first time, a lot of parents must be wondering what is the point of all these ridiculous assignments? (All it really is, is a way to teach them conformity, keep them off the streets and out of the job market for as long as possible. And provide meals for kids whose parents can't afford food.)

Minus all the make-work fluff, the essentials of K-12 education could be compressed into a few years. Basically children need to learn solid reading, comprehension and math skills, high-level reasoning (a la Bloom's Taxonomy), and the tools and habits required for a lifetime of self-directed learning. It doesn't take 12 years to teach them that. For too many kids, even 12 years in the meatgrinder hasn't taught them that.

We’ve found homeschool education during lockdown quiet easy.

That’s for a few reasons:

1)our kids are well behaved and reasonably disciplined teens.
2)our kids schools have done a good job of at home learning, not perfect, but better than most we can compare against
3)our kids have endured torture of years of supplementary home learning from khan academy, duolingo, Amy.app , and Fender Play so lockdown education is just the average day

I can imagine being an essential working parent of a young school aged child with limited support would be incredibly challenging right now.

Incredibly challenging.

I agree that kids need to know the basics, and know them well.

The real professionals I work with use the expression “amateurs train until they get it right, professionals train until they never get it wrong.”

We should aspire to that with the basics for our children.

The rest should be interest based, following passion without starvation.

But I do think there is an exception that could be made with creativity and communication

Unlike crystallised intelligence(you are born with it), creativity is like a muscle that requires exercise.

I think kids need to be pushed as hard as they can tolerate to build resilience, enhance their creativity with a bit of rigour, and build/sell a good story

[shiny!]

Re: After The Virus - What Next?

We’ve found homeschool education during lockdown quiet easy.

That’s for a few reasons:

1)our kids are well behaved and reasonably disciplined teens.
2)our kids schools have done a good job of at home learning, not perfect, but better than most we can compare against
3)our kids have endured torture of years of supplementary home learning from khan academy, duolingo, Amy.app , and Fender Play so lockdown education is just the average day

I can imagine being an essential working parent of a young school aged child with limited support would be incredibly challenging right now.

Incredibly challenging.

I agree that kids need to know the basics, and know them well.

The real professionals I work with use the expression “amateurs train until they get it right, professionals train until they never get it wrong.”

We should aspire to that with the basics for our children.

The rest should be interest based, following passion without starvation.

But I do think there is an exception that could be made with creativity and communication

Unlike crystallised intelligence(you are born with it), creativity is like a muscle that requires exercise.

I think kids need to be pushed as hard as they can tolerate to build resilience, enhance their creativity with a bit of rigour, and build/sell a good story

I can't argue with a word you said. Your children are very lucky to have you.

[Chris Coles]

Re: After The Virus - What Next?

Doesn't it strike you as strange that the problem is a shortage of disposable paper masks and gowns? I am old enough to remember when hospitals used cloth protective equipment and laundered it daily. Why exactly can't the "developed world" make paper masks? It must be (a) rot at the core of the system or (b) malicious intent on the part of policy makers or (c) both. I'm leaning towards b right now. This is consistent with the chorus of learned mandarins telling us that a combination of vitamin C and quinine will kill us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN_YpFhdii4

Your youtube video ended with the question; what is going on? Perhaps this brings the answer: https://news.slashdot.org/story/20/0...green-movement

[globaleconomicollaps]

Re: After The Virus - What Next?

Your youtube video ended with the question; what is going on? Perhaps this brings the answer: https://news.slashdot.org/story/20/0...green-movement

Classic agitprop. I have to hand it to that guy. Slam dunk. I can see the Lib-Dem crowd doing a collective exorcist style head spin. I have some objections that rise above the level of quibbles but I don't want to derail the train. Sic ’em Mike!


I've been playing Plague Inc. which has recently been banned in China. The game contains a remarkably accurate simulation of what an actual virus would do. Anybody that has played the game would instantly recognize COVID-19 as a perfectly designed weapon intended to overwhelm the defenses of sleepy "developed" nations. I think the point of the game is to make you think of every disease as a deliberate creation intended to wipe out humanity. It is easy to see malicious intent where there isn't any.

[Woodsman]

Re: After the Virus? Cognitive Dissonance

Dr. Daniel W. Erickson and Dr. Artin Massih of Bakersfield, California, co-owners of Accelerated Urgent Care in Bakersfield are experienced medical professionals who have 40 years of hands-on experience in dealing with viruses and respiratory infections.

Watching the news in China in January, they knew the virus was on its way. They ordered many COVID-19 tests because they knew they would need them. They tested many thousands of people, and discovered for themselves what epidemiologists around the world are saying: COVID-19 came here earlier than previously believed, is more ubiquitous, and ultimately for the general population less deadly than we thought.

In this press conference, they address the question of whether or not California should have shut down much of its economy with a resounding "no." They conclude with the need to open up immediately, on grounds of health and human rights.

"We’d like to look at how we’ve responded as a nation, and why you responded. Our first initial response two months ago was a little bit of fear: [the government] decided to shut down travel to and from China. These are good ideas when you don’t have any facts. [Governments] decided to keep people at home and isolate them. Typically you quarantine the sick. When someone has measles you quarantine them. We’ve never seen where we quarantine the healthy.

So that’s kind of how we started. We don’t know what’s going on, we see this new virus. How should we respond? So we did that initially, and over the last couple months we’ve gained a lot of data typically. We’re going to go over the numbers a little bit to kind of help you see how widespread COVID is, and see how we should be responding to it based on its prevalence throughout society—or the existence of the cases that we already know about….

So if you look at California—these numbers are from yesterday—we have 33,865 COVID cases, out of a total of 280,900 total tested. That’s 12% of Californians were positive for COVID. So we don’t, the initial—as you guys know, the initial models were woefully inaccurate. They predicted millions of cases of death—not of prevalence or incidence—but death. That is not materializing. What is materializing is, in the state of California is 12% positives. You have a 0.03 chance of dying from COVID in the state of California. Does that necessitate sheltering in place? Does that necessitate shutting down medical systems? Does that necessitate people being out of work? 96% of people in California who get COVID would recover, with almost no significant sequelae; or no significant continuing medical problems. Two months ago we didn’t know this. The more you test, the more positives you get. The prevalence number goes up, and the death rate stays the same. So [the death rate] gets smaller and smaller and smaller. And as we move through this data—what I want you to see is—millions of cases, small death. Millions of cases, small death.

We extrapolate data, we test people, and then we extrapolate for the entire community based on the numbers. The initial models were so inaccurate they’re not even correct. And some of them were based on social distancing and still predicted hundreds of thousands of deaths, which has been inaccurate. In New York the ones they tested they found 39% positive. So if they tested the whole state would we indeed have 7.5 million cases? We don’t know; we will never test the entire state. So we extrapolate out; we use the data we have because it’s the most we have versus a predictive model that has been nowhere in the ballpark of accurate. How many deaths do they have? 19,410 out of 19 million people, which is a 0.1% chance of dying from COVID in the state of New York. If you are indeed diagnosed with COVID-19, 92% of you will recover.

We’ve tested over 4 million… which gives us a 19.6% positive out of those who are tested for COVID-19. So if this is a typical extrapolation 328 million people times 19.6 is 64 million. That’s a significant amount of people with COVID; it’s similar to the flu. If you study the numbers in 2017 and 2018 we had 50 to 60 million with the flu. And we had a similar death rate in the deaths the United States were 43,545—similar to the flu of 2017-2018. We always have between 37,000 and 60,000 deaths in the United States, every single year. No pandemic talk. No shelter-in-place. No shutting down businesses…

We do thousands of flu tests every year. We don’t report every one, because the flu is ubiquitous and to that note we have a flu vaccine. How many people even get the flu vaccine? The flu is dangerous, it kills people. Just because you have a vaccine doesn’t mean it’s gonna be everywhere and it doesn’t mean everyone’s going to take it… I would say probably 50% of the public doesn’t even want it. Just because you have a vaccine—unless you forced it on the public—doesn’t mean they’re going to take it.

Norway has locked down; Sweden does not have lock down. What happened in those two countries? Are they vastly different? Did Sweden have a massive outbreak of cases? Did Norway have nothing? Let’s look at the numbers. Sweden has 15,322 cases of COVID—21% of all those tested came out positive for COVID. What’s the population of Sweden? About 10.4 million. So if we extrapolate out the data about 2 million cases of COVID in Sweden. They did a little bit of social distancing; they would wear masks and separate; they went to schools; stores were open. They were almost about their normal daily life with a little bit of social distancing. They had how many deaths? 1,765. California’s had 1,220 with isolation. No isolation: 1,765. We have more people. Norway: its next-door neighbor. These are two Scandinavian nations; we can compare them as they are similar. 4.9% of all COVID tests were positive in Norway. Population of Norway: 5.4 million. So if we extrapolate the data, as we’ve been doing, which is the best we can do at this point, they have about 1.3 million cases. Now their deaths as a total number, were 182. So you have a 0.003 chance of death as a citizen of Norway and a 97% recovery. Their numbers are a little bit better. Does it necessitate shutdown, loss of jobs, destruction of the oil company, furloughing doctors?

I wanted to talk about the effects of COVID-19, the secondary effects. COVID-19 is one aspect of our health sector. What has it caused to have us be involved in social isolation? What does it cause that we are seeing the community respond to? Child molestation is increasing at a severe rate. We could go over multiple cases of children who have been molested due to angry family members who are intoxicated, who are home, who have no paycheck. Spousal abuse: we are seeing people coming in here with black eyes and cuts on their face. It’s an obvious abuse of case. These are things that will affect them for a lifetime, not for a season. Alcoholism, anxiety, depression, suicide. Suicide is spiking; education is dropped off; economic collapse. Medical industry we’re all suffering because our staff isn’t here and we have no volume. We have clinics from Fresno to San Diego and these things are spiking in our community. These things will affect people for a lifetime, not for a season.

I’d like to go over some basic things about how the immune system functions so people have a good understanding. The immune system is built by exposure to antigens: viruses, bacteria. When you’re a little child crawling on the ground, putting stuff in your mouth, viruses and bacteria come in. You form an antigen antibody complex. You form IgG IgM. This is how your immune system is built. You don’t take a small child put them in bubble wrap in a room and say, “go have a healthy immune system.”

This is immunology, microbiology 101. This is the basis of what we’ve known for years. When you take human beings and you say, “go into your house, clean all your counters—Lysol them down you’re gonna kill 99% of viruses and bacteria; wear a mask; don’t go outside,” what does it do to our immune system? Our immune system is used to touching. We share bacteria. Staphylococcus, streptococcal, bacteria, viruses.

Sheltering in place decreases your immune system. And then as we all come out of shelter in place with a lower immune system and start trading viruses, bacteria—what do you think is going to happen? Disease is going to spike. And then you’ve got diseases spike—amongst a hospital system with furloughed doctors and nurses. This is not the combination we want to set up for a healthy society. It doesn’t make any sense.

…Did we respond appropriately? Initially the response, fine shut it down, but as the data comes across—and we say now, wait a second, we’ve never, ever responded like this in the history of the country why are we doing this now? Any time you have something new in the community medical community it sparks fear—and I would have done what Dr. Fauci did—so we both would have initially. Because the first thing you do is, you want to make sure you limit liability—and deaths—and I think what they did was brilliant, initially. But you know, looking at theories and models—which is what these folks use—is very different than the way the actual virus presents itself throughout communities….

Nobody talks about the fact that coronavirus lives on plastics for three days and we’re all sheltering in place. Where’d you get your water bottles from? Costco. Where did you get that plastic shovel from? Home Depot. If I swab things in your home I would likely find COVID-19. And so you think you’re protected. Do you see the lack of consistency here? Do you think you’re protected from COVID when you wear gloves that transfer disease everywhere? Those gloves have bacteria all over them. We wear masks in an acute setting to protect us. We’re not wearing masks. Why is that? Because we understand microbiology; we understand immunology; and we want strong immune systems. I don’t want to hide in my home, develop a weak immune system, and then come out and get disease.

When someone dies in this country right now they’re not talking about the high blood pressure, the diabetes, the stroke. They say they died from COVID. We’ve been to hundreds of autopsies. You don’t talk about one thing, you talk about comorbidities. COVID was part of it, it is not the reason they died folks. When I’m writing up my death report I’m being pressured to add COVID.

Why is that? Why are we being pressured to add COVID? To maybe increase the numbers, and make it look a little bit worse than it is. We’re being pressured in-house to add COVID to the diagnostic list when we think it has nothing to do with the actual cause of death. The actual cause of death was not COVID, but it’s being reported as one of the disease processes and being added to the death list. COVID didn’t kill them, 25 years of tobacco use killed.

There’s two ways to get rid of virus: either burns itself out or herd immunity. For hundreds of years we relied on herd immunity. Viruses kill people, end of story. The flu kills people. COVID kills people. But for the rest of us we develop herd immunity. We developed the ability to take this virus in and defeat it and for the vast majority 95% of those around the globe. Do you want your immune system built or do you want it not built? The building blocks of your immune system is a virus and bacteria. There’s normal bacteria in normal flora that we have to be exposed to bacteria and viruses that are not virulent are our friends. They protect us against bad bacteria and bad viruses.

Right now, if you look at Dr. Erikson’s skin or my skin we have strep, we have stuff—they protect us against opportunistic infections. That’s why for the first three to six months [babies are] extremely vulnerable to opportunistic infection. Which is why, when we see a little baby in the ER with fever who is one month old, you do a spinal tap, you do a chest x-ray, you do blood cultures, you do urine cultures. But if you had a fever I wouldn’t do that for you. Why? Because that baby does not have the normal bacteria and flora from the community, whereas you do. I guarantee when we reopen there’s going to be a huge, huge amount of illness that’s going to be rampant because our immune systems have weakened. That’s just basic immunology.

Do we need to still shelter in place? Our answer is emphatically no. Do we need businesses to be shut down? Emphatically no. Do we need to have it, do we need to test them, and get them back to work? Yes, we do. The the secondary effects that we went over—the child abuse, alcoholism, loss of revenue—all these are, in our opinion, a significantly more detrimental thing to society than a virus that has proven similar in nature to the seasonal flu we have every year.

We also need to put measures in place so economic shutdown like this does not happen again. We want to make sure we understand that quarantining the sick is what we do, not quarantine the healthy. We need to make sure if you’re gonna dance on someone’s constitutional rights you better have a good reason. You better have a really good scientific reason, and not just theory.

One of the most important things is we need our hospitals back up. We need our furloughed doctors back. We need our nurses back. Because when we lift this thing, we’re gonna need all hands on deck. I know the local hospitals have closed two floors. Folks, that’s not the situation you want. We’re essentially setting ourselves up to have minimal staff, and we’re going to have significant disease. That’s the wrong combination.

I’ve talked to our local head of the Health Department and he’s waiting… for the powers that be to lift. Because the data is showing it’s time to lift. I would start slowly [open up schools sporting events] I think we need to open up the schools start getting kids back to the immune system you know and the major events the sporting events these are non-essential let’s get back to those slowly let’s start with schools let’s start with cafe Rio and the pizza place here… Does that make sense to you guys and I think I can go into Costco and I can shop with people and there’s probably a couple hundred people but I can’t go in Cafe Rio so big businesses are open little businesses are not….

Eventually we treat this like we treat flu. Which is if you have the flu and you’re feeling fever and body aches you just stay home if you have coughing or shortness of breath—COVID is more of a respiratory thing—you stay home. You don’t get tested, even when people come with flu a lot of times we don’t test them. We go, “you have flu. Here’s a medication.” You have COVID, go home, let it resolve and come back negative.

If you have no symptoms you should be able to return to work. Are you an asymptomatic viral spreader? Maybe, but we can’t test all of humanity. Sure we’re gonna miss cases of coronavirus, just like we miss cases of the flu. It would be nice to capture every coronavirus patient, but is that realistic? Are we gonna keep the economy shut down for two years and vaccinate everybody? That’s an unrealistic expectation. You’re going to cause financial ruin, domestic violence, suicide, rape, violence and what are you going to get out of it? You’re still going to miss a lot of cases. So we need to treat this like the flu, which is familiar, and eventually this will mutate and become less and less virulent…

I don’t need a double-blind clinically controlled trial to tell me if sheltering in place is appropriate, that is a college-level understanding of microbiology. A lot of times in medicine you have to make you have to make educated decisions with the data that you have. I can sit up in the 47th-floor in the penthouse and say we should do this, this, and this, but I haven’t seen a patient for 20 years—that’s not realistic.

If you’re healthy and you don’t have significant comorbidities and you know you’re not immunodeficient and you’re not elderly you should be able to go out without any gloves and without a mask. If you are those things you should either shelter in place or wear a mask and gloves. I don’t think everybody needs to wear the masks and gloves because it reduces your bacterial flora… and your bacterial flora and your viruses your friends that protect you from other diseases [if they] end up going away and now you’re more likely to get opportunistic infections infections that are hoping you don’t have your good bugs fighting for you."

[shiny!]

Re: After the Virus? Cognitive Dissonance

Dr. Daniel W. Erickson and Dr. Artin Massih of Bakersfield, California, co-owners of Accelerated Urgent Care in Bakersfield are experienced medical professionals who have 40 years of hands-on experience in dealing with viruses and respiratory infections. ...

... We also need to put measures in place so economic shutdown like this does not happen again. We want to make sure we understand that quarantining the sick is what we do, not quarantine the healthy. We need to make sure if you’re gonna dance on someone’s constitutional rights you better have a good reason. You better have a really good scientific reason, and not just theory.

He makes so much sense.

[jk]

Re: After the Virus? Cognitive Dissonance

problem is that people can be entirely asymptomatic, never get sick, and still be shedding virus. so quarantining only those with manifest illness does not prevent the pandemic from spreading.

we need population wide testing, which would pick up asymptomatic or presymptomatic carriers, in order to have a policy like that. we're a long way from that capability.

[shiny!]

Re: After the Virus? Cognitive Dissonance

problem is that people can be entirely asymptomatic, never get sick, and still be shedding virus. so quarantining only those with manifest illness does not prevent the pandemic from spreading.

we need population wide testing, which would pick up asymptomatic or presymptomatic carriers, in order to have a policy like that. we're a long way from that capability.

But quarantining everyone doesn not allow herd immunity to build and suppresses everyone's immune systems leading to more sickness once people are back out and mingling. You can't simultaneously quarantine healthy people and build herd immunity.

We are a long way from having population wide testing. Are you suggesting that everyone stay locked down until we have full testing capability, with all the collateral damage to human lives and businesses that entails?

[jk]

Re: After the Virus? Cognitive Dissonance

But quarantining everyone doesn not allow herd immunity to build and suppresses everyone's immune systems leading to more sickness once people are back out and mingling. You can't simultaneously quarantine healthy people and build herd immunity.

We are a long way from having population wide testing. Are you suggesting that everyone stay locked down until we have full testing capability, with all the collateral damage to human lives and businesses that entails?

"herd immunity" remains a hope, a fantasy, without any basis in fact. that doesn't mean it might not be theoretically possible. but there's no evidence for it.

there's no evidence for ANY immunity after having had the illness. there are cases of re-infection, including that chinese doctor in his early 30's who died when he caught the virus A SECOND TIME, only about a month after the first time. you can argue the virus had never left, that it was dormant, but that means we can never know if someone is really healthy again. or you can argue that it has something to do with the dose of virus to which he was exposed, which still goes to show he didn't have immunity, or didn't have ENOUGH immunity.

even if you get some immunity after having had the illness, there's no reason to believe that it would last more than 1-2 years, at which point you'd be vulnerable again. lifelong immunity after exposure is the exception, not the rule.

so all these plans built around "herd immunity" are castles in the sky. they have no basis in any scientific knowledge currently available. that could change as we learn more, but that's the state of play right now.

realistic proposals of opening up the economy recognize various levels of risk and vulnerability. start with allowing people under 35 or 45, who do not have any significant comorbidity, to go about their business, but also require they wear masks, practice hygiene, social distance and so on.

if we learn that there is indeed such a thing as immunity after infection. AND if we develop an accurate and reliable antibody test,[that's 2 "if's"] we can also release people who have the relevant antibodies. then work your way up the ladder of risk, graded by age and comorbidities.

so you don't quantine just the sick. you quarantine the sick and the vulnerable, and you build your capacity for virus testing, and for antibody testing if indeed it's meaningful. and you learn what might be helpful in treating people who become ill. and you try to develop vaccines.

you're playing for time, and balancing risk against risk.

a slogan like "don't quarantine the healthy" is just that, a slogan, simplistic and misleading. life is more complex than that.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: After the Virus? Cognitive Dissonance

JK,

Lots of people are contagious for 14 days without even knowing they have it? At the other end people in their 30's and 40's with no health issues die? Is this extremely rare or are there other examples or is Covid19 extreme in this way?

About 15 years ago I had dengue fever and was in the hospital for 4 days. During my final visit with the doctor she said, "Congratulations, you're now immune for approximately a year." A friend had a daughter in her 20's who was healthy and did get it a 2nd time and die quite quickly. Can the degree/duration of immunity be determined besides just monitoring people who have recovered?

[GRG55]

Re: After the Virus? Cognitive Dissonance

But quarantining everyone doesn not allow herd immunity to build and suppresses everyone's immune systems leading to more sickness once people are back out and mingling. You can't simultaneously quarantine healthy people and build herd immunity.

We are a long way from having population wide testing. Are you suggesting that everyone stay locked down until we have full testing capability, with all the collateral damage to human lives and businesses that entails?

This situation has a potentially asymmetric risk distribution. We just don't know enough about it to know what will happen. But we do know what could happen if it becomes completely uncontrolled.

We know so little about it.

• The virus is now confirmed in 210 countries and territories worldwide. Why is it 72% of the fatalities to date (151,680 out of 211,696) are in only 5 of those countries?
• Why is it that all five of these countries are among the most developed economies with rather advanced health care facilities? (USA, Italy, Spain, France and the UK).
• Why is a virus this contagious not racing through and taking large numbers of lives in the slums of Mumbai, Cairo or São Paulo? Or the densely populated cities of Asia?
• Why is it the virus has not swept through any of the rather significant sized "tent cities" in places such as Seattle, Portland and San Francisco? One would think these would be vulnerable populations.

Theres many more questions. There's just so little we know about it.

[Woodsman]

Re: After the Virus? Cognitive Dissonance

"herd immunity" remains a hope, a fantasy, without any basis in fact. that doesn't mean it might not be theoretically possible. but there's no evidence for it...

So say's the pshrink cosplaying as a virologist and epidemiologist.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: After the Virus? Cognitive Dissonance

This situation has a potentially asymmetric risk distribution. We just don't know enough about it to know what will happen. But we do know what could happen if it becomes completely uncontrolled.

We know so little about it.

• The virus is now confirmed in 210 countries and territories worldwide. Why is it 72% of the fatalities to date (151,680 out of 211,696) are in only 5 of those countries?
• Why is it that all five of these countries are among the most developed economies with rather advanced health care facilities? (USA, Italy, Spain, France and the UK).
• Why is a virus this contagious not racing through and taking large numbers of lives in the slums of Mumbai, Cairo or São Paulo? Or the densely populated cities of Asia?
• Why is it the virus has not swept through any of the rather significant sized "tent cities" in places such as Seattle, Portland and San Francisco? One would think these would be vulnerable populations.

Theres many more questions. There's just so little we know about it.

I’m tempted to try and connect the film Rollerball(1975) with a corporatised version of Orwell’s Ministry of Truth, along with the scene in Huxley’s Brave New World that contrasts the perfectly controlled World State from the wild and free Savage Reservation , and finishing with the part in The Purge where everyone goes into lockdown.

Freedom is not being portrayed as slavery, it’s being portrayed as ignorance.

[Southernguy]

Re: After the Virus? Cognitive Dissonance

• Why is a virus this contagious not racing through and taking large numbers of lives in the slums of Mumbai, Cairo or São Paulo? Or the densely populated cities of Asia?

We don't know if such is the case. The places you mention (maybe Sao Paulo can be an exception) do not have dependable health services or statistics. Brazil in particular I fear is about to explode. Yes, too many things we don't know. But one is certain: this not a common flu epidemic.

[Techdread]

Re: After The Virus - What Next?

Doesn't it strike you as strange that the problem is a shortage of disposable paper masks and gowns? I am old enough to remember when hospitals used cloth protective equipment and laundered it daily. Why exactly can't the "developed world" make paper masks? It must be (a) rot at the core of the system or (b) malicious intent on the part of policy makers or (c) both. I'm leaning towards b right now. This is consistent with the chorus of learned mandarins telling us that a combination of vitamin C and quinine will kill us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN_YpFhdii4

The West is rotten, some Nations more than other cough Anglo-Saxon based ones.

Interesting video I did not know that the CFR and IFR should not be mixed together, so Covid is between 25-40 time deadlier than H1N1 flu governments were correct to lockdown, which to me was obvoius seeing the pictures coming out of Wuhan & Italy.

it won't kill you, but i'm sure a run on quinine will kill those in developing world especially Africa.