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  • We've run out of bubbles

    http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com....aspx?page=all

    We've run out of bubbles
    Booms and busts are natural to capitalism, but for years now an irresponsible Fed has interfered with the down cycle. The only choice now may be to let nature take its course.

    By Bill Fleckenstein
    Are the bulls in hibernation?

    I'll begin the new year with this comment: There are no bullish interpretations for the stock market's action thus far. This tells us that 2008 will be the year when reality finally overtakes the Goldilocks crowd.

    Of course, we should expect the bulls to regale us with stories about a proverbial second-half rebound -- the possibility of which is approximately zero, in my opinion. We should also expect believers in that hypothesis to spark a rally from time to time, based on hopes of surprise interest-rate cuts and on actual cuts.

    But their efforts will become progressively less effective. (Anyone seeking a road map to how that might evolve can look at the market's responses to the rate cuts from 2000 through 2002.)

    Irresponsible liquidity originally emanating from the Federal Reserve and then-chief Alan Greenspan (a subject I cover thoroughly in my soon-to-be-published book), coupled with reckless acts of deregulation, have created the problem we now face. The country has gone "all in" via the credit-bubble-inspired housing bubble, which is now unwinding.

    I do not believe there is a potential bubble left that could bail us out, nor do I believe a bailout should be attempted. Likewise, I do not believe any quick fix exists.

    What I do see as the real solution is to let the creative destruction of capitalism finally run its course, after having been held back for a couple of decades.

    I know I've said it before, but it bears repeating: Capitalism involves booms and busts. There is a phenomenon known as the business cycle that loosely revolves around those booms and busts. The policies of Greenspan and the Fed suppressed those busts, and "risk" was more or less struck from the lexicon of the English language (while linguists have pronounced "subprime" their word of the year).

    If we stop attempting to bypass the creative destruction of capitalism, we will finally be able to bring about a recovery built on a solid foundation instead of the quicksand underlying the 2003-07 "recovery" that was built on the housing mania. Though I would like to think the politicians and the Fed get the message and will let the process play out, I am not going to hold my breath.

    Memo to those who would meddle
    Indeed, as Stephen Roach wrote in last week's Financial Times (read "America's inflated asset prices must fall"): "The U.S. body politic is . . . underwriting massive liquidity injections that produce another asset bubble and proposing fiscal pump-priming that would depress domestic saving even further. Such actions can only compound the problems that got America into this mess in the first place."

    Noting how those actions had suppressed the savings process in this country, Roach commented: "America's aversion toward saving did not appear out of thin air. Waves of asset appreciation -- first equities and, more recently, residential property -- convinced citizens that a new era was at hand. Reinforced by a monstrous bubble of cheap credit, there was little perceived need to save the old-fashioned way -- out of income. Assets became the preferred vehicle of choice. With one bubble begetting another, America's imbalances rose to epic proportions.

    Video on MSN Money
    2008's biggest risks

    Bob McTeer, a former Dallas Fed governor, looks at what events could hurt the US economy this year.

    "Despite generally sub-par income generation, private consumption soared to a record 72% of real gross domestic product in 2007. Household debt hit a record 133% of disposable personal income. And income-based measures of personal saving moved back into negative territory in late 2007. None of these trends is sustainable."

    Continued: 'It's going to be a very painful process'

    I could not agree more with Roach's view of what lies ahead: "It's going to be a very painful process to break the addiction to asset-led behavior. No one wants recessions, asset deflation and rising unemployment. But this has always been the potential endgame of a bubble prone U.S. economy."

    We have experienced a wild, drunken binge, and we are going to have a hangover. But the best policy for the country would be to accept the hangover, head to the gym, start working out, and get stronger and healthier for the next go-round.

    Yellow dog takes a bowwow
    Now, a look at gold, an asset I have been bullish on for many years:

    On Jan. 7, gold was the subject of a rather remarkable Financial Times editorial titled "Gold is the new global currency." "In today's uncertain world," it notes, "the yellow metal is back in fashion."

    I might point out that gold has always been a store of value, aka money, though gold hasn't always been recognized as such.

    That the editorial writers agree is the takeaway from this quote: "A better way to think of gold may be as central bankers used to before America dropped the gold standard: not as a commodity, but as another currency."

    (It's worth noting that when gold was at its lows, the Financial Times opined that no one needed it. Gold was just deemed to be another commodity. Obviously, that view has changed.)

    Back to the editorial, which makes a fine point: "As long as the dollar stays weak, gold's bull run will last. . . . The U.S. Federal Reserve's aggressive rate-cutting response to the credit squeeze has created a risk of a sharp rise in American inflation. That in turn creates the risk of a precipitous fall in the dollar and so makes gold more attractive as a hedge."

    Why gold is going higher
    Additionally, notes the editorial, "the arguments for further gains in gold are compelling. It looks cheap, despite climbing from a low of $250 a troy ounce in 1999, when central banks were selling reserves."

    As for the United Kingdom's recent decision to sell 60% of its gold holdings, the editorial describes the move as "particularly poor." I would certainly agree.

    Finally, a word to contrarians who feel they need to fade this gold-as-currency movement due to the belief that the trade has become too crowded:

    Staying with a bull market is often a hard problem to finesse, especially with something like gold, which has so few tangible fundamentals. (It's understandably unnerving to see lots of people picking a top, as though gold at $880 is radically different from gold at $850 -- or $900, for that matter.)

    Video on MSN Money
    2008's biggest risks

    Bob McTeer, a former Dallas Fed governor, looks at what events could hurt the US economy this year.

    Perhaps gold will see a correction. But it's also worth noting that folks who don't like company often leave the train far too soon. In fact, for a bull market to blossom, the asset class in question has to become more popular. As for the public, thus far it seems not to be involved -- though I expect that before this is through, that will change in a meaningful way.

    I have no idea how high gold will go, and I'm sure the ride will continue to be bumpy. But I think that if the Financial Times is declaring that gold should once again take its rightful place as the currency it always has been, the price of gold is headed much higher.
    He does not read iTulip, I suppose.

  • #2
    Re: We've run out of bubbles

    Originally posted by Sapiens View Post
    http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com....aspx?page=all



    He does not read iTulip, I suppose.

    This guy needs to throw a $100.00 (way under valued, should be $?) to Itulip and get educated.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: We've run out of bubbles

      Originally posted by bill View Post
      This guy needs to throw a $100.00 (way under valued, should be $?) to Itulip and get educated.
      Huh? Not sure what you are implying here??? :confused:

      Seems Fleckenstein and iTulip are more or less on the same wavelength...

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: We've run out of bubbles

        Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
        Huh? Not sure what you are implying here??? :confused:

        Seems Fleckenstein and iTulip are more or less on the same wavelength...
        he said:
        I do not believe there is a potential bubble left that could bail us out
        As the current bubble pops another is always in the making. I don’t hear him saying the latter.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: We've run out of bubbles

          Originally posted by bill View Post
          he said:


          As the current bubble pops another is always in the making. I don’t hear him saying the latter.
          iTulip has built a well considered thesis that there MAY be another bubble, has made some intelligent speculations as to where (economic sectors) it may appear, and is watching carefully to determine if its thesis is playing out as anticipated. There's no absolutes about that outcome yet.

          Fleckenstein has made the case there is "nothing" big enough to replace the housing bubble for quite some time now. Given the gargantuan, history making size of the credit bubble that inflated housing globally, his argument shouldn't be dismissed, no matter how big a fan of alternate energy one might be.

          Only time will tell whether the Fed, Treasury, the incoming Administration and their international counterparts are successful at conning the global population into mass participation in another bubble as big as housing, and soon enough to prevent the negative consequences of the debt deflation that EJ has recently commented about.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: We've run out of bubbles

            Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
            Only time will tell whether the Fed, Treasury, the incoming Administration and their international counterparts are successful at conning the global population into mass participation in another bubble as big as housing, and soon enough to prevent the negative consequences of the debt deflation that EJ has recently commented about.

            Gold bubble? This is one bubble the authorities will hate.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: We've run out of bubbles

              Originally posted by touchring View Post
              Gold bubble? This is one bubble the authorities will hate.
              There may be more than one, but I think within a few years we will have seen a hard money bubble come and go. And that - probably like the one that ended in 1980 - it will be the final episode of the bubble series.
              Finster
              ...

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: We've run out of bubbles

                Originally posted by touchring View Post
                Gold bubble? This is one bubble the authorities will hate.
                Indeed, a gold bubble. The gold chart is going parabolic, only a fool would deny that.

                Too many fail to understand that the price of gold going up has nothing to do with an increase in manufacturing demand but instead everything to do with the greater fool theory. Too many people buy gold in the expectation that they can sell it later for more money to someone else.

                Oil down = gold down
                Oil plunging = gold plunging
                Stock market crash = gold crashing

                As I predicted oil has started a downtrend, gold is starting to follow. Once we have the expected mega cut by the Fed. I expect one last spike and then it will fall hard together with oil.
                Last edited by Tulpen; January 16, 2008, 05:21 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: We've run out of bubbles

                  Originally posted by Tulpen View Post
                  Oil down = gold down
                  Oil plunging = gold plunging
                  Stock market crash = gold crashing
                  Or . . . .

                  Stock market crash, and everyone rushes into gold as a safe haven for their remaining assets . . . .

                  Or . . . .

                  Dollar plummets in value, and everyone rushes into gold as a safe haven for their remaining assets . . . .

                  As a commodity, oil is subject to demand destruction from recession, but gold is not.

                  Who knows how this will play out . . . ladies and gentlemen, place your bets
                  raja
                  Boycott Big Banks • Vote Out Incumbents

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: We've run out of bubbles

                    Originally posted by Tulpen View Post
                    Indeed, a gold bubble. The gold chart is going parabolic, only a fool would deny that.

                    Too many fail to understand that the price of gold going up has nothing to do with an increase in manufacturing demand but instead everything to do with the greater fool theory. Too many people buy gold in the expectation that they can sell it later for more money to someone else.

                    Oil down = gold down
                    Oil plunging = gold plunging
                    Stock market crash = gold crashing

                    As I predicted oil has started a downtrend, gold is starting to follow. Once we have the expected mega cut by the Fed. I expect one last spike and then it will fall hard together with oil.
                    Well I can't agree with you here. Gold is the anti-currency. Simple as that. And if you expect currencies to gain value for very long, you are blind to a hundred years of history to the contrary.

                    Sure currencies will gain value temporarily against tangibles, but not for long.

                    I would say people buy paper gold as a speculation. But people buy physical gold as a way to store value that is "off the grid" as I like to say, not vulnerable to a host of depredations ranging from constant currency depreciation to political risk to risk of counter party risk.

                    Now, is a gold bubble possible? Sure. We had one in 1979. Is it probable? Yes. I think it is. These things start slowly. The reason it is possible is that the helicopter drops will result in investors paper and going into tangibles. This will continue being the theme of the next few years I think.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: We've run out of bubbles

                      Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
                      Huh? Not sure what you are implying here??? :confused:

                      Seems Fleckenstein and iTulip are more or less on the same wavelength...
                      i've read both for years. both see the housing based crash coming and now going down. the difference is fleck doesn't have the same background as ej: vc, entrepreneur, business, econ, finance. nor, imho, the method ej uses... interviewing experts and refining his thinking over the years. fleck pretty much keeps to the same tune: a bear with detailed analysis of how fucked up the or that company or market is. ej is consistent with respect to his macro predictions... of inflation as the fed rescues the system from asset deflation and now debt deflation. but the model here of how the whole system works keeps getting better. ej was ok, good, but not great in 1999. now light years ahead of fleck and everyone else with this understanding of how the fire and p/c economies are managed and so on. i try to engage folks on other sites on this and they have no idea what i'm talking about. you can spend days trying to teach some of these asshats what we know here about why deflation ain't gonna happen in the usa but it's hopeless because they don't understand how the system works.

                      take roubini for example. he says in his 2008 forecast the dollar is going to fall hard and so is gold. how the hell is that gonna happen? gold is priced in dollars. either the dollar will rise and the dollar price of gold falls or the dollar falls and the dollar price of gold rises. you can't have it both ways. that's econ 101. and he's supposed to be an economist.

                      then you have that mish guy who says "deflation" and then "buy gold!". what the hell is that? either you think "more currency depreciation, inflation, and buy gold" or "currency appreciation, deflation, sell gold, and stuff cash under the mattress". he says "currency appreciation, deflation, buy gold". makes no frigging sense whatsoever. thank god for the internets to collect these pseudo intellectual asshats elsewhere and keep them off of itulip.

                      yeh, i'll write a review of all the finance and econ asshat sites out there for fun. they don't all suck. the contrary investor guys are spot on, for example. schiff's good... now that he reads itulip ;)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: We've run out of bubbles

                        Originally posted by grapejelly View Post
                        Well I can't agree with you here. Gold is the anti-currency. Simple as that. And if you expect currencies to gain value for very long, you are blind to a hundred years of history to the contrary.

                        Sure currencies will gain value temporarily against tangibles, but not for long.

                        I would say people buy paper gold as a speculation. But people buy physical gold as a way to store value that is "off the grid" as I like to say, not vulnerable to a host of depredations ranging from constant currency depreciation to political risk to risk of counter party risk.

                        Now, is a gold bubble possible? Sure. We had one in 1979. Is it probable? Yes. I think it is. These things start slowly. The reason it is possible is that the helicopter drops will result in investors paper and going into tangibles. This will continue being the theme of the next few years I think.

                        So, GJ, so what is your allocation to bullion?
                        Jim 69 y/o

                        "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

                        Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

                        Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: We've run out of bubbles

                          Originally posted by metalman View Post
                          i've read both for years. both see the housing based crash coming and now going down. the difference is fleck doesn't have the same background as ej: vc, entrepreneur, business, econ, finance. nor, imho, the method ej uses... interviewing experts and refining his thinking over the years. fleck pretty much keeps to the same tune: a bear with detailed analysis of how fucked up the or that company or market is. ej is consistent with respect to his macro predictions... of inflation as the fed rescues the system from asset deflation and now debt deflation. but the model here of how the whole system works keeps getting better. ej was ok, good, but not great in 1999. now light years ahead of fleck and everyone else with this understanding of how the fire and p/c economies are managed and so on.
                          fleck doesn't do macroeconomics on the level that ej does. but fleck saw the tech bubble, then he saw the housing bubble. he's been right on gold for a long time. he sees the dollar going in the dumpster. he's into the day to day trading nuances, as is appropriate for someone running a short hedge fund.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: We've run out of bubbles

                            Yesterday I sold my short oil positions. DCR alone gave me a profit of about 40%, not bad for less than one month investment.

                            Also bought gold in the expectation of helicopter Ben giving us a mega cut which I think will give gold another spike. After that I will go back to shorting oil.

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