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Once Again, Ultimately a Bad Bet

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  • #16
    Re: Once Again, Ultimately a Bad Bet

    Originally posted by kriden View Post
    Idiots scream... "InSaNe EsCaLaTiOn!!!"
    There are just a few problems with that line of thought, only it takes just a tiny bit of nuance and discernment to square things away.

    Trump asserted that Gen. Soleimani was responsible for the “deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of Americans” and this line has been repeated endlessly across the media by Democrats and Republicans alike. Now it's one thing to claim that Iran is responsible for the deaths of "hundreds, if not thousands of Americans" and not at all unexpected to hear propaganda of this sort from an aggressor to justify its illegal use of force. The problem with this is that it's untrue.

    Certainly, hundreds of Americans have been killed by state sponsored terrorism in the Middle-East and elsewhere. But if you take every American killed including and since 9/11 in the resultant Middle East related wars, conflicts and terrorist acts, the finger of blame points not towards our historical enemy Iran, but to our so called ally Saudi Arabia.

    Well over 90% of Americans killed since 11 September 2001 have fallen at the hands of Sunni Muslims financed and supported by Saudi Arabia and its gulf satellites. Less than 10% of those Americans have been killed by Shia Muslims tied to Iran. Every journalist or aid worker hostage who has been horribly beheaded or otherwise executed has been murdered by a Sunni, every jihadist terrorist attack in the USA itself, including 9/11, has been exclusively Sunni, the Benghazi attack was by Sunnis, Isil are Sunni, Al Nusra are Sunni, the Taliban are Sunni and the vast majority of US troops killed in the region are killed by Sunnis.

    Of course, this has been a stubborn and inconvenient fact for multiple US administrations going back to Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan. Regardless of party, they are beholden to Saudi Arabia and its money. It is, the USA affirms, the Sunnis who are the allies and the Shias who are the enemy. The fact that Sunni Muslims kill Americans 10 to 1 over Shia is not something they are prepared to discuss, considering the $50B USD in military aid sent to Saudi Arabia flows through major US banks, back to major US defense contractors, and a sizable portion is "recycled" into the campaign coffers of those same politicians ever eager to redirect our attention from the facts of who exactly is killing Americans.

    And is it too much to ask precisely which are these hundreds of deaths for which the Shia forces of Soleimani were responsible? Is there a list we might examine? Well no, because it's a simple lie similar to attacks in the Vietnamese Tonkin Gulf or Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq. Whatever relationship the claim might have with the truth goes back to the Pentagon’s assertion that back during our invasion of Iraq, 83% of US troop deaths were at the hands of Sunni resistance and 17% of US troop deaths were at the hands of Shia resistance, but now all of whom taken together are conveniently laid at the door of Soleimani.

    Since it's propaganda it would be better if it were true, but it doesn't need to be. It just needs to get us riled up and shut down our reasoning. But if we're speaking of idiocy, it does seem to me that its authors think rather little of our intelligence. Because we'd surely be idiots if we were to accept the propagandist's premise that Soleimani is personally responsible for every American soldier killed. And there's been precious little evidence presented that Soleimani had active operational command of Shia militias during our invasion of Iraq.

    And even if we were to momentarily accept for the sake of argument the ridiculous premise that Soleimani had personally supervised every combat success, we're still faced with another problem. These were legitimate acts of war in defense against an invasion. Our soldiers were killed in combat during an invasion kicking off a war of convenience started under demonstrably false pretenses. Just as the Continental Army fought the British invasion and the French Army fought the Nazi invasion, the Iraqi Shia militias – whether Iran backed or not – fought George Bush's invasion.

    Now some might wish for a world where the act of defending one's territory from invading American troops was somehow illegal or illegitimate, but even they would be unwilling to cite it as a principle in international relations, international law, or the laws of war. Because it's idiocy. The idea that any state has the right to execute or assassinate combatants who fight in defense of an invasion is an absolute negation and inversion of the laws of war and common sense. A state cannot simply assassinate opposing generals who fought it, years after it invaded. Well, it seem that we can, but it takes much of the shine off the City on a Hill, dimming its Beacon of Hope.

    The final and perhaps silliest lie is Vice President Mike Pence’s attempt to link Soleimani to 9/11. There is absolutely no link between Soleimani and 9/11, and the most strenuous efforts by George W. Bush and his proxies to find evidence that would link either Iran or Iraq to 9/11 failed utterly. The bipartisan 9/11 report specifically stated that the Iranians no had foreknowledge or culpability for the WTC attack and made no claim that Soleimani was in any way personally involved. It is total bullshit and assumes we are idiots incapable of reading or comprehending the ever growing mountain of evidence that 9/11 was Saudi led and Saudi executed and had nothing at all to do with Iran.

    Soleimani, in fact, was involved in intelligence and logistical cooperation with the United States in Afghanistan post 9/11 as the Taliban were his enemies too, and the Shia Tajiks were a key part of the US aligned Northern Alliance. Soleimani was a high official in Iran who was openly present in Iraq as a public guest of the Iraqi government, to which the US government is allied and shares diplomatic recognition. This greatly exacerbates the illegality of his assassination still further. He was an accredited combatant general of a foreign state which we and the rest of the world recognizes. We also recognize the illegality of assassination, both in international law and in our own domestic statutes. In no way was Soleimani a legitimate target for a U.S. attack. And no Orwellian State Department briefings or mindless two minutes hate campaigns in the media will ever change that simple fact.

    But more than mere illegality, its greatest sin is stupidity. It puts Iran into a position where it has to counterattack, if only to prevent future assassinations of a similar kind. We broke the rules when we killed an active commander of another country outside of a declared war. Now new rules will be made to regain a balance.

    Iran will likely prepare multiple venues and methods for retribution. It might execute only one or several of those. The targets will be of at least equal size and symbolic importance as Soleimani. Such idiocy as this now puts a target on even the most senior American officials. Fortunately, they are likely too well protected to be accessible and the Iranians are too strategic in their thinking to make such a move. Thankfully, that also rules out any counterattack within the American homeland, as that would be a direct attack and would be used as the casus belli for the long desired open war. But short of those, there are a number of other possibilities for unpleasant surprises. The sinking of a large U.S. combat ship, or the take down of an aircraft similar to the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 in retribution for the USS Vincennes shootdown of Iran Air Flight 655.

    Killing Soleimani was a stupid, senseless act of self-defeat and one more in a decades long track record of military and political incompetence and failure. The fallout has already begun. This morning the command of our forces in Iraq ordered a halt to all US and NATO training activities for Iraqi government troops. The Iraqi government also issued an order that, for the time being, no further US operations may take place in Iraq. Tomorrow the Iraqi parliament will meet to consult over a law that would evict all US troops. There is currently some disunity within the Shia majority in the parliament. Should it fail to evict us, expect the Shia groups will act on their own since their comrades and leaders were also killed. I fear they will attack our soldiers wherever they can. The situation for the Americans in Iraq will soon become untenable.
    Last edited by Woodsman; January 05, 2020, 11:21 AM.

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    • #17
      Re: Once Again, Ultimately a Bad Bet

      Iraq "Votes" to remove ALL US troops from its soil..........but like voting for Brexit I fear

      Last edited by Mega; January 05, 2020, 12:20 PM.

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      • #18
        Re: Once Again, Ultimately a Bad Bet

        Trump in the Middle east.....

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        • #19
          Re: Once Again, Ultimately a Bad Bet



          the money quote
          , both figuratively and literally

          Originally posted by woodsman
          The fact that Sunni Muslims kill Americans 10 to 1 over Shia is not something they are prepared to discuss, considering the $50B USD in military aid sent to Saudi Arabia flows through major US banks, back to major US defense contractors, and a sizable portion is "recycled" into the campaign coffers of those same politicians ever eager to redirect our attention from the facts of who exactly is killing Americans.


          as Lily Tomlin said, No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up.

          it literally nauseates me, i feel queasy, when i think about how this works, and about those who are profiting by killing, maiming, starving, and displacing thousands, millions, all around the world, including americans.

          we are governed by psychopaths.
          Last edited by jk; January 05, 2020, 03:11 PM.

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          • #20
            Re: Once Again, Ultimately a Bad Bet

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            • #21
              Re: Once Again, Ultimately a Bad Bet

              Shit!
              https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ack-Kenya.html

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              • #22
                Re: Once Again, Ultimately a Bad Bet


                "al-Qaeda-linked al-Shabab"
                sunni, not shia, so unlikely to be linked to Soleimani

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                • #23
                  Re: Once Again, Ultimately a Bad Bet

                  Yes but everyone is going to want to attack American assets now.......there is an American officer works in my office.......might jump out from behind copy machine myself......or may be not.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Once Again, Ultimately a Bad Bet

                    Oh well

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                    • #25
                      Re: Once Again, Ultimately a Bad Bet

                      Originally posted by Mega View Post
                      Yes but everyone is going to want to attack American assets now.......there is an American officer works in my office.......might jump out from behind copy machine myself......or may be not.
                      surely not, unless his wife drove on the wrong side of the road killing a young motorcyclist!
                      engineer with little (or even no) economic insight

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                      • #26
                        Re: Once Again, Ultimately a Bad Bet

                        i guess the administration was right when they said iranian attacks were imminent.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Once Again, Ultimately a Bad Bet

                          Originally posted by jk View Post
                          i guess the administration was right when they said iranian attacks were imminent.
                          "Iran’s missile strikes last night were calibrated to satisfy honour while avoiding damage that would trigger automatically the next round. The missiles appear to have been fitted out with very light warhead payloads indeed – their purpose was to look good in the dark going up into the night sky. There is every reason to believe the apparent lack of US casualties was deliberate.

                          Even more important was the Iraqi statement that “proportionate measures” had been “taken and concluded” and they did not seek “further escalation”.

                          ...

                          Wars are easy to start but hard to stop. Trump appears to have calmed, but we cannot rule out a stupid “last word” attack bu the USA. It is to be hoped that Iran now concentrates on using the immense political leverage it has gained to get western troops out of Iraq, which would be a tremendous result for all of us after 17 years. But we cannot rule out hotter heads in the Iranian government insisting on further attacks, or attacks from regional forces whose Tehran authorisation is uncertain. On either side this could yet blow up badly.

                          I am a sucker for hope, and the best outcome would be for the US and Iran to start talking directly again, and a deal to be made from this break in the logjam that is wider than, and Trump can portray as better than, “Obama’s” nuclear deal and would enable the lifting of sanctions. I am sure Trump will be tempted by the chance to go for this kind of diplomatic coup under the political cover provided him by Soleimani’s assassination. But the US is now so tied in to Saudi Arabia and Israel, and thus tied in to irrational hostility to Iran, that this must be extremely unlikely."

                          https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archi...dow-for-peace/

                          It's on us now. If we return the favor with a cruise missile strike on the bases that fired these missiles, maybe everyone walks off the ledge for the time being. If we lob some over the top counter strike, things will spiral out of control. Either way, the end won't change. One way or another, sooner or later, we are out of Iraq.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Once Again, Ultimately a Bad Bet

                            a day or two prior to the strikes there was word about u.s. troops being moved, apparently but not explicitly preparatory to withdrawal. does anyone know whether they in fact vacated either or both of the bases that were hit, prior to the attacks?

                            i've seen a suggestion of this elsewhere, with the implication that either the iranians warned the u.s. in advance to be able to simultaneously retaliate and de-escalate, or perhaps more likely the u.s. was tipped by an iranian, israeli, you-name-it mole with high level iranian info.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Once Again, Ultimately a Bad Bet

                              I have a Mixed dealing with our US liaison officers, didn't get on with "John" or "Michael" (Fat ex Marine) who's wife "Dear john-ed" him right in front of everyone on the floor. Boy was he pissed!

                              "Bob" on the other hand was GREAT, good old boy from just outside Tennessee I walked into his office wearing my Che flat cap........
                              Mike

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                              • #30
                                Re: Once Again, Ultimately a Bad Bet

                                Originally posted by jk View Post
                                a day or two prior to the strikes there was word about u.s. troops being moved, apparently but not explicitly preparatory to withdrawal. does anyone know whether they in fact vacated either or both of the bases that were hit, prior to the attacks?

                                i've seen a suggestion of this elsewhere, with the implication that either the iranians warned the u.s. in advance to be able to simultaneously retaliate and de-escalate, or perhaps more likely the u.s. was tipped by an iranian, israeli, you-name-it mole with high level iranian info.
                                reuters

                                Iran believed to have deliberately missed U.S. forces in Iraq strikes: sources
                                https://reut.rs/2T7Kg18

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