Jack Ma: 'When trade stops, sometimes the war starts'.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Jack Ma: 'When trade stops, sometimes the war starts'.

Here's another hilarious sign of big tech's fecklessness: They created so much inequality they're working on recreating soviet-style housing systems. No joke. Here's the skinny out of Mountain View. It's causing a battle in San Jose. This is all happening in real time.

Of course, nobody is answering the key questions. Like, who owns the housing? Do you get evicted if you get fired? Do you pay in cash or scrip? Is it provided as a job benefit? Does good job performance grant you access to better units? Do those laid off, fired, or suspended get evicted?

None of this type of basic shit has been worked out yet. They think it's a good idea to build it first and worry about it later. Hahaha. Famous last words.

Meanwhile, if you have a masters in education and a teaching certificate, and your choice is to live in a place you can have your own housing and be free, or live in a factory dorm where the principal, superintendent, and school board are not only your bosses, but also your landlord, and you had a brain in your head, where would you move?

Will their phone calls be monitored? How about their internet access? If the school district's providing the housing, but not a salary large enough to get housing anywhere nearby, can they dictate who you have stay overnight? How about who comes to visit? How many cars (if any) can park? What time lights out and quiet must happen? Will you be allowed to bring alcohol on the premises?

Oh man, it's a brave new world. The "free market" tech titans have created so much inequality and are so stingy about paying taxes that they're literally recreating the soviet housing system for public teachers. It'd be hilarious if it weren't so depressing.

And I'll pose the same question yet again: If you were a really talented teacher, why the hell would you want to live in a place like that?

Even for those who do get off that treadmill, things like Landed are just as disgusting. Cover half of teachers' down-payments in exchange for the principal back plus 25% of all the home's equity. We were literally better off with liar's loans and subprime mortgages.

Young people I talk to in their teens and early 20s in New England all want to avoid the Bay Area and Silicon Valley like the plague. I figured they were sensing something I didn't quite grasp. But I'm realizing very quickly what they see. If this is the future, give me a one-way bus ticket to Cleveland. Better to be free in a squalid shack than a servant in a mansion.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Jack Ma: 'When trade stops, sometimes the war starts'.

Brazil looks like it just went hard right too. Strange times. Was not so long ago all our hopes rested in the USSR. Might not be so long from now that all our hopes rest in China. It's early yet. But something wicked this way comes.

[touchring]

Re: Jack Ma: 'When trade stops, sometimes the war starts'.

Brazil looks like it just went hard right too. Strange times. Was not so long ago all our hopes rested in the USSR. Might not be so long from now that all our hopes rest in China. It's early yet. But something wicked this way comes.

I think only a person can be "wicked". Entire communities and countries can't be wicken. Hitler is wicked, but are Germans wicked?

The danger is when a wicked, or worst still, an insane person (as in the case of Hilter) gains control of a country with a powerful military. The autocratic capitalist model works fantastically well for everyone until this happens.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Jack Ma: 'When trade stops, sometimes the war starts'.

I think only a person can be "wicked". Entire communities and countries can't be wicken. Hitler is wicked, but are Germans wicked?

The danger is when a wicked, or worst still, an insane person (as in the case of Hilter) gains control of a country with a powerful military. The autocratic capitalist model works fantastically well for everyone until this happens.

I take dcarrigs's words less literally. The writer Ray Bradbury wrote a novel by that title, which is filled with a sense of unease and foreboding.
Bradbury in turn was referencing William Shakespeare's Macbeth - one of the witches around the bubbling cauldron says this just as Macbeth enters the scene: "By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes"

[dcarrigg]

Re: Jack Ma: 'When trade stops, sometimes the war starts'.

I think only a person can be "wicked". Entire communities and countries can't be wicken. Hitler is wicked, but are Germans wicked?

The danger is when a wicked, or worst still, an insane person (as in the case of Hilter) gains control of a country with a powerful military. The autocratic capitalist model works fantastically well for everyone until this happens.

Ideologies can be wicked. Keep in mind, Hitler only got 18% of the vote in the 1930 german election. But it was enough for the Nazis to convince Bruenig & von Papen to issue an emergency decree and essentially short circuit parliament. They used modern tech of the time like air travel and public polling to boost their electoral prospects in 1932. But that was still just 37% of the vote. This was enough to become Chancellor and orchestrate the Reichstag fire, and the rest is history.

Fascists have never needed an electoral majority. Only a strong enough minority that they can take power. They tend to be adept at using new technologies to disrupt existing election systems. They always cheat. They tend to pass their ideas off as softer than they really are or as jokes so they always have plausible deniability. And they tend to draw in support from capitalists of any subtype of capitalism you want to think of, because they promise to get government out of the way for very wealthy people who want even more. This isn't hard. They'll recruit a money addict and give him purpose as easy as a wealth addict. They take the people who have difficulty with social interactions--oddballs who never quite fit in--and make them big and important in some small way (so long as they're the right race, ethnicity, religion, etc). This is how they build loyalty. Lots of purges of military and government bureaucracies. They need to be rebuilt with loyal party members who tow the line and who will be willing to do anything, even violate the law or constitution, for their leader. No questions asked.




I mean, a month or two ago Paraguay just put the Colorado Party back in power (the party that ran their right-wing dictatorship that lasted from the early 1950s to 1989). Colombia went with their far right Democratic Center Party (note how fascist party names are always purposefully misleading, like "democratic peoples republics"). Brazil just had an election where 48% went to the extreme-right-wing Social Liberal Party. We'll see what happens in the runoff.

But Brazil's a big capture for the far right. They'll have half of the BRICs at that point. They've got a foothold in Eastern Europe. And they're very close to flipping some of Western Europe. Make no mistake, for all its supposed "nationalism" fascism has always also been an international movement. Turkey's a part of it too. And they'll take allies wherever they can find them. This is why identitarian conferences in Hungary have speaker line-ups like this:




It's also why Spencer's wife, a Russian national, is Dugin's English-language translator. Russia's funding a lot of this stuff. But they're not super wealthy. Nor are they super sophisticated. They look for little fires that are already burning. Then they throw gasoline on them. Very opportunistic. But nevertheless their efforts seem to be bearing fruit, and nobody seems to want to call this rising fascist internationalism out for what it is.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Jack Ma: 'When trade stops, sometimes the war starts'.

I take dcarrigs's words less literally. The writer Ray Bradbury wrote a novel by that title, which is filled with a sense of unease and foreboding.
Bradbury in turn was referencing William Shakespeare's Macbeth - one of the witches around the bubbling cauldron says this just as Macbeth enters the scene: "By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes"

Yes, yes! I was thinking of Will and Jim and Mr. Dark's carnival. Something that's fun to look at. Seems like it may even be fun to be part of for a distance. Seems reasonable to many even to be excited that it's coming to town. Self-centered desires can lead you down a dark path...

[vt]

Re: Jack Ma: 'When trade stops, sometimes the war starts'.

I see communism as just as much as fascism. Both are autocratic and totally evil. Both cheat blindly and revert to anything to take control.

The image of Antifa breaking windows in downtown D.C. at Trump's inauguration brought up memories of film of Kristallnacht or Reichskristallnach.
A prime target was Starbucks, which was founded by jews and bought by Howard Schultz. Today's left is anti semitic.

Any autocratic system is a disaster for a nation.

I see the increase of nationalism as more of a reaction to rapid immigration of people with very different cultural viewpoints. Not saying any culture is bad, just the shock of
too many coming in and a clash of culture. It takes time to assimilate.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Jack Ma: 'When trade stops, sometimes the war starts'.

Some of the places like Poland and Hungary have gone far right on an anti-immigrant message despite net emigration outflows. The message seems to stay constant across nations regardless of the extent of immigration in any specific place. I mean, Hungary's far right ran on an anti-Muslim platform. There are about 5,000 Muslims in Hungary. 0.0005% of the population. Not exactly a huge issue by any measure. Romania has similar goings on. More there, because Constanța has been home to a Muslim population for centuries. So it's maybe 0.1% of the population there, but the majority are all centered in one small city in the far southeast corner of the country and have been going to the same mosque since it was built over a hundred years ago.

But all this is neither here nor there. I do think it's reasonable for nations to discuss and limit immigration. But you don't need far-right extremist parties to do it. And as much as it's easy to protest from America that these are just patriots worried about immigration, it's far more difficult in other places. France's National Front, for instance, still has active members and politicians who were part of the fascist Vichy regime. In South America, former officials of dictatorships are the elder statesmen of the new far right parties. Regardless of what either of us think, the international fascist movement is bigger than it has been at any time since before WWII. And it's growing. Fast.

[vt]

Re: Jack Ma: 'When trade stops, sometimes the war starts'.

Immigration is mainly a problem in Germany, France, United Kingdom, Switzerland, Austria, Sweden, and Norway;
where it is 6% to 8% of the population.

However Europe needs immigrants because their own birth rate is declining. I don't understand why they don't
actively encourage more Asians (60% of global populations). Assimilate muslims already there while respecting and
learning from their experience, but bring in Asians to grow population.

The U.S. has an oversupply of immigrants from Mexico and Central America, which make up only 6% of population.
Encourage a lot more from Asia and even Africa to correct the unfairness that has occurred.

We don't need to deport illegals (except criminals), but make them earn citizenship over decades, while bringing Asians, Africans, Europeans
who have been treated very unfairly by those who have have cut in line.

The huge majority of Mexicans and other hispanics here are wonderful people, but they already make up 17% of the population, which is fair.

[jk]

Re: Jack Ma: 'When trade stops, sometimes the war starts'.

dc, i think another factor in the growth of the european right is the eu. i think the european commission in particular, and in general rule by eu regulatory edicts is producing a nationalist reaction in eastern europe.

as you point out, it's not a feeling that they're being overrun by muslims, as the french in particular are experiencing as muslim religiousity bumps up against french laicite. but the eastern european countries had no sovereignty under soviet rule, and they feel a similar thing encroaching on them from brussels instead of moscow.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Jack Ma: 'When trade stops, sometimes the war starts'.

We don't need to deport illegals (except criminals), but make them earn citizenship over decades.

Living overseas, I know many Americans who have married foreigners. The gauntlet to becoming an American citizen has become absolutely absurd, not to mention extremely expensive. American teacher moves to Thailand, marries a Thai, after 5 years both move back to the US, she gets a green card and certification to teach in several states, teaches in public schools, ten years go by, and she is still in limbo with no real hope of ever becoming a citizen. These people are in their late 30's early 40's. Contrast this with many older Thais (55-65) who worked in the US for 10 to 20 years in their prime (some starting successful businesses). They all have dual citizenship. I also know of several 20 year olds who have come to the US from Thailand and worked all summer being paid less than 1.50 an hour because they were doing an "internship" at a fast food restaurant.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Jack Ma: 'When trade stops, sometimes the war starts'.

The Hispanics already make up 17%. But the Italians make up 5% and the Polish make up 3% and the Portuguese make up 1% and us Irish make up a whole additional 13%. Add them all up, and pretty soon America won't be safe for White Anglo-Saxon Protestants anymore. Hell, they might even elect a Papist to the oval office who nobody would assassinate...

This is the more unique problem with American immigration than European immigration in a nutshell. Unless you've got tribal affiliation, you're an immigrant here to some extent. Now the English and French and Dutch mostly got here before the Polish and Irish and Italians. But if the far right in the US got to purge people, it's not clear to me they'd stop at Mexicans and Guatemalans and El Salvadorians. I mean, you really think ICE is going to be picky about Spaniards, Portuguese and Brazilians who don't show up on the Census as Hispanic? And if you can come for them, why not the Italians? At some point near there, it has to become easier to just go after all the Catholics, since you already rounded half of them up. I might be safely on the white side of things today. But I don't trust the nativist impulse in the US to ever decide I'm truly one of them. I'm still a grandson of immigrants.

That said, as I said before, I do think it's fair to discuss limiting immigration flows. Or expanding them. It's all a matter of policy. And wide open borders cannot work anywhere yet. In fact, I'd like more border security myself, but I'm a bit more worried about illegal money crossing than people--more worried about capital abusing borders than labor. That said, neither Obama nor Trump has lifted a finger to stop illegal international money flows. And both have deported a record number of people for postwar American history. In fact, more people were deported under Obama than any other president. Trump would need two terms to even have a chance. Liberals who suddenly care about this are just yuppies riding the bandwagon. Trump has done some awful things, regarding separating kids and sending ICE raiding through neighborhoods after people who didn't commit other crimes. Those seem like needless terror tactics. And they gin up the nastier yee-haw Klan part of the GOP base.

Like I said, you don't need those kind of tactics to deport people and secure the border. You don't need the far right moves and rhetoric. You don't need to feed red meat to skinheads, yokels and racists. You can just have an immigration policy and enforce it without the cruel theatrics and rhetoric. It would be nice if we would create some sort of sane and easy-to-understand path-to-citizenship for the people already here. Even if it were hard. Just clear, obvious steps people can take with timelines. It can involve classes, working, testing, whatever. Just make it a clear goal that people can work towards and meet if they're doing everything else right. Hell, even have some nominal penalty for having come in the first place--say some civil fine that wasn't totally outrageous or something--that might be fine. For too many, there's no path, so they are always doing things underground.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Jack Ma: 'When trade stops, sometimes the war starts'.

There is an anti-EU element. But I don't think that's what's driving people to the polls. And funnily enough, with the sort of exceptions of Bulgaria and Portugal, Eastern Europeans tend to be more in favor of the EU and believe the EU has benefitted them than Western Europeans. Bulgaria's a funny spot, because it's main far right party is called "Attack." The Attack Party isn't trying to fool anyone like the "Sweden Democrats" are.

Anyway, EU has to watch itself still, because post-Brexit, Italy's even less happy with EU than UK. And that's one of the core 3 members now. But some have strange ideas of taking over the EU rather than dismantling it. That's what the Italexit crew is on about now.

I mean, Hungary's going so far as to levy special taxes against Muslims. Poland purged their Supreme Court. Things are further along the road to fascism in the East of Europe than I think most Americans realize.

[vt]

Re: Jack Ma: 'When trade stops, sometimes the war starts'.

Come on DC. You are not looking at basic fairness.

First we are all immigrants unless one has American Indian ancestry, which my wife is possibly 25%. She is, also maybe 25%,
part French jew fleeing French anti semitism in the late 1800's.

All I said was we have 11 million illegals (maybe double that according to a recent Yale study) that came here jumping ahead of millions plus
over the years of people trying to get here legally. And they were every color,nationality, ethnicity, and religion.

The skinheads and racists you harp on would not be very happy with all the Asians and Africans I stated should be now given preference.
As I said they make up probably 70% plus of global population. What I have proposed is more diversity. The current Democrat party wants less
diversity, as it appears to want open borders.

I definitely did not say to deport anyone but criminals. But again to be fair do not let them jump in line in front of all, mainly of color mind you,
who are trying to enter legally. Current illegals will have a path to citizenship but it must be over possible a couple of decades, and done on a
scheduled basis taking may one million a year.

And Obama and maybe Bush did separate some children. It did not start with Trump.

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/pol...213525764.html

Normally you are very reasonable, but I feel here you have totally distorted what I said, which was very fair to all.

[subtly]

Re: Jack Ma: 'When trade stops, sometimes the war starts'.

That said, as I said before, I do think it's fair to discuss limiting immigration flows. Or expanding them. It's all a matter of policy. And wide open borders cannot work anywhere yet. In fact, I'd like more border security myself, but I'm a bit more worried about illegal money crossing than people--more worried about capital abusing borders than labor. That said, neither Obama nor Trump has lifted a finger to stop illegal international money flows. And both have deported a record number of people for postwar American history. In fact, more people were deported under Obama than any other president. Trump would need two terms to even have a chance. Liberals who suddenly care about this are just yuppies riding the bandwagon. Trump has done some awful things, regarding separating kids and sending ICE raiding through neighborhoods after people who didn't commit other crimes. Those seem like needless terror tactics. And they gin up the nastier yee-haw Klan part of the GOP base.

Is it possible to have a fair discussion in the US? On any important topic? If one has an opinion on immigration you are either an America hating traitor or a nasty yeehaw K-lan member. Mainstream media isn't helping move the discussion ahead. Maybe the people in charge of Mega media are more than ok with illegal money flowing across open borders, and capital's abuse of the same?