The PIIGS still fly

[wayiwalk]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

I don't always agree with you dcarrigg, but when I agree with you, like now, I really agree with you.

I would add to this, it is like a plague flooding the nation, corrupting anything and anyone who thinks they can push the envelope of fair and legal to tip things waaayyyyyyy in their favor, and too bad for the other side, whatever or whoever is on that side.

I agree those at the top can be fairly characterized as you characterized them here; I fear their are too many folks who aspire to be like them.

[dcarrigg]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

It doesn't matter what they are objecting to. And my observation is completely unrelated to whether the grievance is legitimate or not. That also does not matter.

The effect is yet another in a long series of small steps to erode the value and influence of one of the remaining representations, symbols and shared public rituals of a nation.

Nobody need be forced to stand during the anthem, or the raising of the flag (here the President is wrong imo). It only has value if people do it voluntarily. Out of respect for what those symbols represent.

So what happens if some other constituency with some other valid grievance decides they too should collectively do the same thing - perhaps within the audience instead of as players on the field - to draw attention to their equally legitimate cause at a public gathering? And then another constituency? And another? There's no shortage of those to draw from these days.

With the flourishing of tribalism worldwide perhaps we are entering a time where we may be questioning the very purpose or necessity of a nation, any nation.

My own nation, Canada, is an interesting and heretofore relatively successful experiment in how to organize and govern a diverse society that lives together in comparative harmony. So far. And Quebec notwithstanding. But if one was to ask what is it that defines us as Canadians the answers, if any are forthcoming, lean heavily towards the facile ("We are not Americans!"...when in point of fact we actually are) and the irrelevant (our national health care program...difficult for me to imagine a social policy program being the primary glue that binds us together). Canada seems an increasingly fragile construct.

Interesting times indeed.

It seems to me that the concept of 'we' becomes increasingly irrelevant as tribalism increases.

Perhaps 'we' are not questioning the very purpose or necessity of any nation.

But I think maybe there is an elite who are. Or at least they are questioning the purpose of democratic institutions.

Look at Paypal billionaire Peter Thiel's own words. He does not believe that freedom and democracy are compatible in any sense. Or look at the billionaire king of VC, Tom Perkins, and listen to what he says. All of the wealth and all of the leisure he has access to, and his best idea to change the world is to take the vote away from half of the people in democratic republics and install an iron oligarchy.

And these are the guys who won. I mean, "the system" has not worked better or harder to give untold, wanton, sinful piles of decadent riches to almost any other human being in the history of man than it has these two. Croesus himself would gaze upon their yachts and weep. But they're still miserable and they still want more...so badly that they want to break the system that gave it all to them in the first place.

I don't know, man. Even Reagan filled busloads full of bankers in handcuffs after the Savings and Loan Scandals of the 80s.

Something fundamentally changed in the 90s that got real poisonous in the 00s. Financial elites became 'above the law.' Billionaires became above the law. I mean, we didn't even have any billionaires until the 80s, so I guess it was a new thing anyways.


But stories like the affluenza kid, Ethan Couch? Blatantly corrupt court cases like Citizens United and McCutcheon vs. FEC? ******* Robert Durst on HBO's The Jinx literally getting away with multiple murders because he's an NYC real estate heir? Bin Laden taking a billion of his family's money just to do 9/11 and set up Al Qaeda? Alice Walton dropping out of school, killing people while drunk driving, then still drunk driving, still getting arrested, and still keeping her license?

HSBC laundering drug cartel and terrorist money with no criminal persecutions? Countrywide, Goldman, Bear-Stearns and Lehman going down the way they did in the financial crisis with not a single person being found criminally liable for all those liar loans and illegal 'robo-signatures' and mortgage fraud? The Panama Papers? How many companies' CEOs and boards outsource despite killing the town they were born in or squirrels money away in Ireland or some Caribbean tax shelter rather than be upstanding citizens that care about their neighbors and customers and workers that got them there? Meanwhile Clinton and Obama are raking in a half-million per half-hour giving speeches on Wall Street. Trump is letting his daughter act like the Princess Regent along with her hubby in the most blatant nepotism of our time...

Makes you long for a guy like Jimmy Carter, who is still out there in his 90s nailing 2x4s together for low-income folks.


...I suppose I'm just saying, something about justice and equality in the developed world is qualitatively different now than it was when I was a kid.


The justice system has always been skewed. Wealthy people could always hire better lawyers. But there was always some sort of semblance of equality under the law. You couldn't literally get away with murder just because you were rich. Now, I think you can.


In no small way, you can tell the history of the 2000s and 2010s simply in terms of a string of billionaires acting badly, corrupting the republic, and being above the law. Soros, Koch, the side they're on is irrelevant. Either way, they think they're going to move to an offshore platform or Mars or at the very least Singapore or Monaco or Dubai when the shit really hits the fan.

Our leaders have no allegiance any more. The entirety of pro sports leagues went and fought in WWII. JFK fought, despite being a little rich Harvard boy, and somewhat sickly. Even Elvis signed up for a tour of duty.

Can you imagine the players of the NFL enlisting to fight a war today? How about Jared Kushner? Can you see him suiting up and dropping into a forward position in Afghanistan? Can you picture Kanye doing push-ups in the mud at Ft. Hood?

Our leaders feel like they no longer owe us anything. Like the rest of us are a burden. An albatross around their necks. "If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population." That's where we're at. They don't want us. They certainly don't want us to have power. They don't want to share a dime with us. They don't want one single solitary dollar trickling down. And they damn well are not going to submit to our laws or go to jail for their crimes.

Never mind fight for us! As if! Could you imagine Ivanka Trump and Chelsea Clinton taking orders from some former waitress come drill sergeant from Sheboygan? The whole concept is beyond their comprehension. All they could think is that they could buy and sell her family if they wanted. They'd never be able to play the role with a straight face.

Something changed. And even if people don't/can't/won't put it together like I do, they know it. They know their Uncle did a couple years in the pokey for doing what Lindsay Lohan gets community service for. They pick up on the distain and hatred our leaders have for the rest of us, even if it's only through watching Rich Kids of Instagram on Channel 4.

And even if they don't watch that, regular people get it.

They tell us we need to be tough on crime. We need broken-windows policing. We need stop-and-frisk.

But high above the streets of New York, bigger crimes are happening in offices, and they're completely immune from and above the law. No strict investigation or enforcement for them. People realize that Obama let them get away with murder on both sides of the isle.


But outside of that, people realize the little things about what's taxed around them. I'm talking about the pigouvian taxes. The taxes used to change behavior. They use them as sticks against most of us, but only carrots for our leaders.

Think about all the little taxes they use for behavior change on working class and middle class people.

They tax the hell out of cigarettes, but exempt cigars. They tax the hell out of soda or limit its size, but not lattes or oversized blueberry pomegranate margaritas. They tax your gasoline and make you buy newer expensive emissions systems for your cheap car, but not for private jets or yachts. They tax beer and whiskey harder than wine. In many states you have to pay a yearly excise tax on any car, no matter how old and beat up, but you pay no taxes on boats or planes.


All of the 'sin' taxes proposed by politicians left, right, and center have this cognitive dissonance built into them. The version of the product rich people like is exempt from the tax (Cigars, Wine, Yachts, Lattes), where the version of the product poor people like is hit hard with the tax (Cigarettes, Beer, Cars, Soda).

They don't even pretend to try to treat us equally. It's almost like they believe we're the equivalent of children and they are the equivalent of parents that know better. And that parochial attitude is fundamentally rude and antidemocratic. But I think that may be the point, and I may see eye to eye with guys like Tom Perkins and Peter Thiel more than I realize. At least we all agree on what they're doing. It's the rest of them that lie about it who are maybe more dangerous.

And when our leaders, our most lucky, our most wealthy, our most powerful...when those people let it be known with their actions, even if not always with their words, that they no longer care about the rest of us, or our country...that they don't like us and have no allegiance to us or the nation that made them. Then why should anybody else? If our nation's most fortunate don't give a shit about our country or the people in it, why wouldn't the rest of the hoi polloi emulate that behavior?

And I'm afraid that this is a case where the American predicament is not unique. The whole of the developed world is along for this ride. It's why you see the same politics happening at roughly the same time from Berlin to London, from Paris to Madrid, from Washington to Ottowa. It doesn't matter. It's all the same symptoms of the same disease.

[GRG55]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

I don't believe they are objecting to the US. It's not a protest against the anthem or flag. It's a free protest aimed at raising awareness of being treated differently but probably a misguided attempt.

It doesn't matter what they are objecting to. And my observation is completely unrelated to whether the grievance is legitimate or not. That also does not matter.

The effect is yet another in a long series of small steps to erode the value and influence of one of the remaining representations, symbols and shared public rituals of a nation.

Nobody need be forced to stand during the anthem, or the raising of the flag (here the President is wrong imo). It only has value if people do it voluntarily. Out of respect for what those symbols represent.

So what happens if some other constituency with some other valid grievance decides they too should collectively do the same thing - perhaps within the audience instead of as players on the field - to draw attention to their equally legitimate cause at a public gathering? And then another constituency? And another? There's no shortage of those to draw from these days.

With the flourishing of tribalism worldwide perhaps we are entering a time where we may be questioning the very purpose or necessity of a nation, any nation.

My own nation, Canada, is an interesting and heretofore relatively successful experiment in how to organize and govern a diverse society that lives together in comparative harmony. So far. And Quebec notwithstanding. But if one was to ask what is it that defines us as Canadians the answers, if any are forthcoming, lean heavily towards the facile ("We are not Americans!"...when in point of fact we actually are) and the irrelevant (our national health care program...difficult for me to imagine a social policy program being the primary glue that binds us together). Canada seems an increasingly fragile construct.

Interesting times indeed.

[gnk]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

Forget Texas. There is already a MUCH larger example within the almost relentlessly dividing nation of the USA along the same underlying theme related to Constitutions and national identities. Americans can no longer even agree to stand for their own national anthem; one of the few remaining forms of collective public acknowledgement of the nation.

Against the televised violence of Calalonia, some will probably think this is a flippant observation, example or comment. Unfortunately, if one thinks about the implications carefully it is anything but.

Unfortunately in times of relative peace and prosperity, people will find something to vehemently disagree on. And then, only a real and present danger, a common enemy, binds everyone back again.

[llanlad2]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

Forget Texas. There is already a MUCH larger example within the almost relentlessly dividing nation of the USA along the same underlying theme related to Constitutions and national identities. Americans can no longer even agree to stand for their own national anthem; one of the few remaining forms of collective public acknowledgement of the nation.

Against the televised violence of Calalonia, some will probably think this is a flippant observation, example or comment. Unfortunately, if one thinks about the implications carefully it is anything but.

I don't believe they are objecting to the US. It's not a protest against the anthem or flag. It's a free protest aimed at raising awareness of being treated differently but probably a misguided attempt.

[GRG55]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

...You may understand how people feel in Spain but you clearly don't understand how people feel or think in Catalunya. To equate Catalans fighting for independence as somehow equivalent to Texas seceding from the United States seems to suggest a lack of understanding of what being or even living in Catalunya is. Catalunya has its own language and a distinct culture and was for centuries an autonomous principality. Texas has none of that history. Why wouldn't Catalans want independence from Madrid financial elites and just as importantly tell me why it shouldn't have the democratic right of self-determination especially as the Spanish see the Catalans as "different" and have a certain amount of disdain for them.



...

Forget Texas. There is already a MUCH larger example within the almost relentlessly dividing nation of the USA along the same underlying theme related to Constitutions and national identities. Americans can no longer even agree to stand for their own national anthem; one of the few remaining forms of collective public acknowledgement of the nation.

Against the televised violence of Calalonia, some will probably think this is a flippant observation, example or comment. Unfortunately, if one thinks about the implications carefully it is anything but.

[Alvaro Spain]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

I would like to be more enlightened but you don't wish to engage.

Please, mr. llanlad2, don't take it as something personal, but in general Spaniards don't like that foreigners mess in their internal business.

My main point in this thread has been to use the situation to warn readers that there is a lot of false information (fake news) concerning foreign countries, and that you should be careful before believing that you know what happens in any foreign country, not only in Spain. It is very easy to tell lies to a foreigner through mass media. Fake news has created many unnecessary problems, and in some of them the USA has been involved (remember Irak and the MDW for example?). I don't expect any kind of involvement from the USA in the catalan problem, though.

If you want to know, more or less, what the vast majority of Spaniards think about this issue, you can read the discourse of our King (equivalent to the POTUS in Spain). The King spoke to us yesterday for the first time in 20 years, so you can have an idea of how important this speech is.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-1...nuclear-option

[llanlad2]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

I believe that most non spaniards don't know enough to understand the situation here, or even in any other foreign country. Feel free to disagree with me, if you want.

I would like to be more enlightened but you don't wish to engage. I come into contact with Spaniards on a regular basis and discussed this only yesterday with 3 couples. 1 couple were dismissive and basically said "If they want to leave let them go." The others were more along the lines that the Catalans needed teaching a lesson. There is no attempt to empathise or even consider the real or perceived reason Catalans may have for seeking independence."The referendum was illegal"-end of story. These were highly educated people but it is a common attitude. You could even say that most non-Catalans can't possibly understand the situation. Franco (fascist) era flags were also being flown around Spain.

If the Catalans declare independence (a mistake), then based on the attitudes of the Spanish, a war is very likely as you say. The rest of Europe will be utterly shocked and do nothing.

[Alvaro Spain]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

I believe that most non spaniards don't know enough to understand the situation here, or even in any other foreign country. Feel free to disagree with me, if you want.

[llanlad2]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

I will confess that I don't like you too much. I usually don't like people who call me arrogant, so please don't take it as something personal. But there is always a solution. If you want me to address your points, please transfer the amount of 1,000 euros to my paypal account, and I will try to do my best to do a job that, frankly, doesn't interest me in the very least.

Seriously? I don't know you so can't comment. But you are arrogant on the topic as I stated-It's you who took it personally and ran away from defending your point of view having declared most people ignorant on the subject.

[Alvaro Spain]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

You are mistaken and arrogant like many Spaniards on this topic. Try addressing the points in red.

I will confess that I don't like you too much. I usually don't like people who call me arrogant, so please don't take it as something personal. But there is always a solution. If you want me to address your points, please transfer the amount of 1,000 euros to my paypal account, and I will try to do my best to do a job that, frankly, doesn't interest me in the very least.

[llanlad2]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

In my opinion you lack knowledge of the subject you are talking about, but I might be mistaken.

You are mistaken and arrogant like many Spaniards on this topic. Try addressing the points in red.

[Alvaro Spain]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

In my opinion you lack knowledge of the subject you are talking about, but I might be mistaken.

[llanlad2]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

48% of catalans wanted independence and 52% didn't want. These are very exact numbers, taken from the recent local elections held in 2015. Maybe it will surprise you to know but Cataluña is one of the most indebted parts of Spain (maybe the most), and also one of the most corrupt (probably the most). This kind of news don't travel well outside Spain.l

There is a saying that two weeks is a long time in politics well two years is a lifetime. Would the result be the same now? Whilst you're correct in your assertion that the recent 90% vote in favour of independence was misleading, the way the Spanish government dealt with the referendum has certainly changed the minds of many. A majority would vote in favour now for sure.

The EU has said many times, very clearly, officially and as recently as yesterday, that an independent Catalonia will NOT be part of the EU, even if it finds a legal way in accordance with the spanish constitution (which is not the case now) to become independent. And you can bet that Spain will, at least for the next several centuries, never agree that Cataluña becomes a member.

So what's new? The EU is ever supportive of strong arm tactics. It's also supportive of a Spanish government that has continuously endorsed the Troika's medicine.

I my personal opinion there will be war. A small war won by Spain. Kind of a small civil war, but held only in catalan territory. In case you want to know, I don't like the situation but nobody has asked me for what should happen.

Would you rather war than Catalunya becoming an independent state?

You are the only one here who seems to understand the situation in Spain. People should be much more careful before talking about what happens in foreign countries.My reflection for you would be this: do you believe that the constitution of the USA should be taken seriously? If so, you should also take seriously the constitution of Spain. Do you believe that Texas, for example, should be allowed to secede without asking the rest of the USA, without Donald Trump sending the police (or the army) there and without any kind of consequences for the texans? If you don't think that this would be correct for your country, please allow Spain the same rights.

You may understand how people feel in Spain but you clearly don't understand how people feel or think in Catalunya. To equate Catalans fighting for independence as somehow equivalent to Texas seceding from the United States seems to suggest a lack of understanding of what being or even living in Catalunya is. Catalunya has its own language and a distinct culture and was for centuries an autonomous principality. Texas has none of that history. Why wouldn't Catalans want independence from Madrid financial elites and just as importantly tell me why it shouldn't have the democratic right of self-determination especially as the Spanish see the Catalans as "different" and have a certain amount of disdain for them.

In my opinion, it is absurd and uninformed. It would be pointless to tell all the weak points of the op-ed, but I will tell just two.

2.- Spain has a constitution. The NYT says:

In early September, pro-independence parties in Catalonia’s regional Parliament broke their own laws when they bypassed the opposition to pass legislation that would make the referendum’s result binding. "
and I believe that this is grossly misleading. The regional Parliament in Cataluña didn't break their own laws, they broke the spanish Constitution, which is much worse. There are, in theory, ways to secede in accordance with the spanish Constitution. The catalan government has been for years breaking our Constitution without any kind of retaliation from the central government. Most spaniards (maybe 75%) actually believe that our central government has been too soft, even last sunday.

Well to be fair if they've asked for a referendum and been told they can't have one and are not allowed due to the constitution what are they supposed to do? Shrug their shoulders and go quietly? Progressive nationalism is not going away for the simple reason that local populations would rather choose their own politicians rather than distant central ones. It's called democracy.

[Alvaro Spain]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

In my opinion, it is absurd and uninformed. I have researched and found that the author is not neutral and is actually pro-independence of Cataluña (he belongs to the 15M movement, which later transformed into Podemos, a party which supports the anti-constitutional referendum). So, the author has "skin in the game", and has delivered the unsuspecting readers of the NYTimes a partisan op-ed. It would be pointless to tell all the weak points of the op-ed, but I will tell just two.

1.- 90% of the people who voted, wanted to secede. This is true. What the op-ed doesn't tell is that over 60% of the people didn't vote, and EVERYBODY who wanted to secede voted at least once (true, in this referendum things were done like that, people voting 2-3 or more times, there was no control, no census). There are villages and cities in Cataluña where the number of Yes votes is greater than the total population of this city or village. If fact, pro-independence people are not majority in Cataluña (that's why the catalans are going against the constitution and the law), let alone the total population in Spain.

2.- Spain has a constitution. The NYT says:
"
In early September, pro-independence parties in Catalonia’s regional Parliament broke their own laws when they bypassed the opposition to pass legislation that would make the referendum’s result binding. "


and I believe that this statement is grossly misleading. The regional Parliament in Cataluña didn't break their own laws, they broke the spanish Constitution, which is much worse. There are, in theory, ways to secede in accordance with the spanish Constitution. The catalan government has been for years breaking our Constitution without any kind of retaliation from the central government. Most spaniards (maybe 75%) actually believe that our central government has been too soft, even last sunday.

There are so many absurdities and misleading statements in the op-ed that the only thing that I'd say is: be careful before you believe that you know what is happening in a foreign country.

My reflection for you would be this: do you believe that the constitution of the USA should be taken seriously? If so, you should also take seriously the constitution of Spain. Do you believe that Texas, for example, should be allowed to secede without asking the rest of the USA, without Donald Trump sending the police (or the army) there and without any kind of consequences for the texans? If you don't think that this would be correct for your country, please allow Spain the same rights.