The PIIGS still fly

[GRG55]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

So according to your logic, you can only become independent through armed conflict (July 4, 1776), or prevent secession through armed conflict (May 9, 1865).

Maybe this is more of a North America vs Europe kind of point of view, as we've had our fair share of armed insurgency (IRA, ETA, FLNC) as well as former colonies that were tried to be preserved through armed conflict.
Democratic dialogue seems a more civilized way to approach these issues.

All that Spain ends up doing by suppressing a democratic dialogue, is creating a bigger resentment against Madrid influence. Planting the seeds for a bigger and wider independence movement, in case it wasn't already at critical mass.

If that is what you concluded you didn't follow the logic of my argument at all.

NOTHING in my post suggest armed conflict was a desirable or necessary way to resolve these conflicts.

As for "democratic dialogue" it takes at least two to undertake such discourse, and so far in Spain it would appear those with separatist intentions have correctly determined any such engagement with Madrid is counterproductive to their desired outcome.

[Alvaro Spain]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

You are the only one here who seems to understand the situation in Spain. People should be much more careful before talking about what happens in foreign countries.

[jk]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

curious what you think of this op-ed, alvaro

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/02/o...dum-spain.html

[Alvaro Spain]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

In my opinion, it is absurd and uninformed. I have researched and found that the author is not neutral and is actually pro-independence of Cataluña (he belongs to the 15M movement, which later transformed into Podemos, a party which supports the anti-constitutional referendum). So, the author has "skin in the game", and has delivered the unsuspecting readers of the NYTimes a partisan op-ed. It would be pointless to tell all the weak points of the op-ed, but I will tell just two.

1.- 90% of the people who voted, wanted to secede. This is true. What the op-ed doesn't tell is that over 60% of the people didn't vote, and EVERYBODY who wanted to secede voted at least once (true, in this referendum things were done like that, people voting 2-3 or more times, there was no control, no census). There are villages and cities in Cataluña where the number of Yes votes is greater than the total population of this city or village. If fact, pro-independence people are not majority in Cataluña (that's why the catalans are going against the constitution and the law), let alone the total population in Spain.

2.- Spain has a constitution. The NYT says:
"
In early September, pro-independence parties in Catalonia’s regional Parliament broke their own laws when they bypassed the opposition to pass legislation that would make the referendum’s result binding. "


and I believe that this statement is grossly misleading. The regional Parliament in Cataluña didn't break their own laws, they broke the spanish Constitution, which is much worse. There are, in theory, ways to secede in accordance with the spanish Constitution. The catalan government has been for years breaking our Constitution without any kind of retaliation from the central government. Most spaniards (maybe 75%) actually believe that our central government has been too soft, even last sunday.

There are so many absurdities and misleading statements in the op-ed that the only thing that I'd say is: be careful before you believe that you know what is happening in a foreign country.

My reflection for you would be this: do you believe that the constitution of the USA should be taken seriously? If so, you should also take seriously the constitution of Spain. Do you believe that Texas, for example, should be allowed to secede without asking the rest of the USA, without Donald Trump sending the police (or the army) there and without any kind of consequences for the texans? If you don't think that this would be correct for your country, please allow Spain the same rights.

[llanlad2]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

48% of catalans wanted independence and 52% didn't want. These are very exact numbers, taken from the recent local elections held in 2015. Maybe it will surprise you to know but Cataluña is one of the most indebted parts of Spain (maybe the most), and also one of the most corrupt (probably the most). This kind of news don't travel well outside Spain.l

There is a saying that two weeks is a long time in politics well two years is a lifetime. Would the result be the same now? Whilst you're correct in your assertion that the recent 90% vote in favour of independence was misleading, the way the Spanish government dealt with the referendum has certainly changed the minds of many. A majority would vote in favour now for sure.

The EU has said many times, very clearly, officially and as recently as yesterday, that an independent Catalonia will NOT be part of the EU, even if it finds a legal way in accordance with the spanish constitution (which is not the case now) to become independent. And you can bet that Spain will, at least for the next several centuries, never agree that Cataluña becomes a member.

So what's new? The EU is ever supportive of strong arm tactics. It's also supportive of a Spanish government that has continuously endorsed the Troika's medicine.

I my personal opinion there will be war. A small war won by Spain. Kind of a small civil war, but held only in catalan territory. In case you want to know, I don't like the situation but nobody has asked me for what should happen.

Would you rather war than Catalunya becoming an independent state?

You are the only one here who seems to understand the situation in Spain. People should be much more careful before talking about what happens in foreign countries.My reflection for you would be this: do you believe that the constitution of the USA should be taken seriously? If so, you should also take seriously the constitution of Spain. Do you believe that Texas, for example, should be allowed to secede without asking the rest of the USA, without Donald Trump sending the police (or the army) there and without any kind of consequences for the texans? If you don't think that this would be correct for your country, please allow Spain the same rights.

You may understand how people feel in Spain but you clearly don't understand how people feel or think in Catalunya. To equate Catalans fighting for independence as somehow equivalent to Texas seceding from the United States seems to suggest a lack of understanding of what being or even living in Catalunya is. Catalunya has its own language and a distinct culture and was for centuries an autonomous principality. Texas has none of that history. Why wouldn't Catalans want independence from Madrid financial elites and just as importantly tell me why it shouldn't have the democratic right of self-determination especially as the Spanish see the Catalans as "different" and have a certain amount of disdain for them.

In my opinion, it is absurd and uninformed. It would be pointless to tell all the weak points of the op-ed, but I will tell just two.

2.- Spain has a constitution. The NYT says:

In early September, pro-independence parties in Catalonia’s regional Parliament broke their own laws when they bypassed the opposition to pass legislation that would make the referendum’s result binding. "
and I believe that this is grossly misleading. The regional Parliament in Cataluña didn't break their own laws, they broke the spanish Constitution, which is much worse. There are, in theory, ways to secede in accordance with the spanish Constitution. The catalan government has been for years breaking our Constitution without any kind of retaliation from the central government. Most spaniards (maybe 75%) actually believe that our central government has been too soft, even last sunday.

Well to be fair if they've asked for a referendum and been told they can't have one and are not allowed due to the constitution what are they supposed to do? Shrug their shoulders and go quietly? Progressive nationalism is not going away for the simple reason that local populations would rather choose their own politicians rather than distant central ones. It's called democracy.

[Alvaro Spain]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

In my opinion you lack knowledge of the subject you are talking about, but I might be mistaken.

[llanlad2]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

In my opinion you lack knowledge of the subject you are talking about, but I might be mistaken.

You are mistaken and arrogant like many Spaniards on this topic. Try addressing the points in red.

[Alvaro Spain]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

You are mistaken and arrogant like many Spaniards on this topic. Try addressing the points in red.

I will confess that I don't like you too much. I usually don't like people who call me arrogant, so please don't take it as something personal. But there is always a solution. If you want me to address your points, please transfer the amount of 1,000 euros to my paypal account, and I will try to do my best to do a job that, frankly, doesn't interest me in the very least.

[llanlad2]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

I will confess that I don't like you too much. I usually don't like people who call me arrogant, so please don't take it as something personal. But there is always a solution. If you want me to address your points, please transfer the amount of 1,000 euros to my paypal account, and I will try to do my best to do a job that, frankly, doesn't interest me in the very least.

Seriously? I don't know you so can't comment. But you are arrogant on the topic as I stated-It's you who took it personally and ran away from defending your point of view having declared most people ignorant on the subject.

[Alvaro Spain]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

I believe that most non spaniards don't know enough to understand the situation here, or even in any other foreign country. Feel free to disagree with me, if you want.

[llanlad2]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

I believe that most non spaniards don't know enough to understand the situation here, or even in any other foreign country. Feel free to disagree with me, if you want.

I would like to be more enlightened but you don't wish to engage. I come into contact with Spaniards on a regular basis and discussed this only yesterday with 3 couples. 1 couple were dismissive and basically said "If they want to leave let them go." The others were more along the lines that the Catalans needed teaching a lesson. There is no attempt to empathise or even consider the real or perceived reason Catalans may have for seeking independence."The referendum was illegal"-end of story. These were highly educated people but it is a common attitude. You could even say that most non-Catalans can't possibly understand the situation. Franco (fascist) era flags were also being flown around Spain.

If the Catalans declare independence (a mistake), then based on the attitudes of the Spanish, a war is very likely as you say. The rest of Europe will be utterly shocked and do nothing.

[Alvaro Spain]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

I would like to be more enlightened but you don't wish to engage.

Please, mr. llanlad2, don't take it as something personal, but in general Spaniards don't like that foreigners mess in their internal business.

My main point in this thread has been to use the situation to warn readers that there is a lot of false information (fake news) concerning foreign countries, and that you should be careful before believing that you know what happens in any foreign country, not only in Spain. It is very easy to tell lies to a foreigner through mass media. Fake news has created many unnecessary problems, and in some of them the USA has been involved (remember Irak and the MDW for example?). I don't expect any kind of involvement from the USA in the catalan problem, though.

If you want to know, more or less, what the vast majority of Spaniards think about this issue, you can read the discourse of our King (equivalent to the POTUS in Spain). The King spoke to us yesterday for the first time in 20 years, so you can have an idea of how important this speech is.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-1...nuclear-option

[GRG55]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

...You may understand how people feel in Spain but you clearly don't understand how people feel or think in Catalunya. To equate Catalans fighting for independence as somehow equivalent to Texas seceding from the United States seems to suggest a lack of understanding of what being or even living in Catalunya is. Catalunya has its own language and a distinct culture and was for centuries an autonomous principality. Texas has none of that history. Why wouldn't Catalans want independence from Madrid financial elites and just as importantly tell me why it shouldn't have the democratic right of self-determination especially as the Spanish see the Catalans as "different" and have a certain amount of disdain for them.



...

Forget Texas. There is already a MUCH larger example within the almost relentlessly dividing nation of the USA along the same underlying theme related to Constitutions and national identities. Americans can no longer even agree to stand for their own national anthem; one of the few remaining forms of collective public acknowledgement of the nation.

Against the televised violence of Calalonia, some will probably think this is a flippant observation, example or comment. Unfortunately, if one thinks about the implications carefully it is anything but.

[llanlad2]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

Forget Texas. There is already a MUCH larger example within the almost relentlessly dividing nation of the USA along the same underlying theme related to Constitutions and national identities. Americans can no longer even agree to stand for their own national anthem; one of the few remaining forms of collective public acknowledgement of the nation.

Against the televised violence of Calalonia, some will probably think this is a flippant observation, example or comment. Unfortunately, if one thinks about the implications carefully it is anything but.

I don't believe they are objecting to the US. It's not a protest against the anthem or flag. It's a free protest aimed at raising awareness of being treated differently but probably a misguided attempt.

[gnk]

Re: The PIIGS still fly

Forget Texas. There is already a MUCH larger example within the almost relentlessly dividing nation of the USA along the same underlying theme related to Constitutions and national identities. Americans can no longer even agree to stand for their own national anthem; one of the few remaining forms of collective public acknowledgement of the nation.

Against the televised violence of Calalonia, some will probably think this is a flippant observation, example or comment. Unfortunately, if one thinks about the implications carefully it is anything but.

Unfortunately in times of relative peace and prosperity, people will find something to vehemently disagree on. And then, only a real and present danger, a common enemy, binds everyone back again.