Viva Fidel!!!!!!!!!!

[Mega]

He took on the might of the USA................& turned it aside.

Mike

[Mega]

Re: Viva Fidel!!!!!!!!!!

One can only hope TRUMP will carry the touch now ;)
Mikr

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Viva Fidel!!!!!!!!!!

Was he a "freedom fighter" when wearing retrospective rose tinted glasses?

Maybe from a superficial and oversimplistic Che Guevara wearing t-shirt perspective.

Castro's totalitarian leadership definitely led to a dramatic improvement is average/egalitarian healthcare outputs for Cubans, a little known tailwind to this was the dramatic drop in obesity and cardiovascular disease after the Soviet Union collapsed along with the massive subsidies to Cuba that led to economic contraction and associated lower caloric intake for average Cubans.

Many here chastise the US for excess military adventurism, hopefully they will also chastise Cuba for the same.

Cuba's military alignment and partnership with Vietnam, and North Korea were of more political than operational value.

But South America was a covert continental war zone.

But the biggest and hardest to dispute Cuban military adventures would have to be the Ogaden War of the 1970's where Cuba deployed conventional troops by the thousands on combat operations in that bizarre superpower geopolitical flip-flop where external powers(including Cuba's very active participation) flipped sides as local governments fell and rose.

The most egregious example would have to be the South West African war of the 70's/80's.

Cuba deployed hundreds of thousands of soldiers conventional combat operations in Angola over more than a decade on behalf of the Soviet Union in the last hot war of the Cold War.

One only needs to look look at the flow of humanity, much like human flows with the Warsaw Pact and North Korea.

Castro was a Honecker with better marketing and an unbreakable liquid wall.

[Mega]

Re: Viva Fidel!!!!!!!!!!

[GRG55]

Re: Viva Fidel!!!!!!!!!!

He took on the might of the USA................& turned it aside.

Mike

You say that about pretty well everyone Mike.

But I can't help but notice that in too many instances, including China and Cuba, there seems a steady trickle of people trying to get out and into the USA, and not so many wanting to go the other way

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Viva Fidel!!!!!!!!!!

You say that about pretty well everyone Mike.

But I can't help but notice that in too many instances, including China and Cuba, there seems a steady trickle of people trying to get out and into the USA, and not so many wanting to go the other way

Although it's worth mentioning I ran into my first American this past weekend who recently renounced his citizenship.

He's not crazy nutter either......multi-tech start up founder, met him at a StartUp Weekend we were both helping out on.

He's not looking back....compliance costs were his main bugbear, rather than political leanings.

[GRG55]

Re: Viva Fidel!!!!!!!!!!

Although it's worth mentioning I ran into my first American this past weekend who recently renounced his citizenship.

He's not crazy nutter either......multi-tech start up founder, met him at a StartUp Weekend we were both helping out on.

He's not looking back....compliance costs were his main bugbear, rather than political leanings.

Apparently a bitterly disappointed Democrat.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Viva Fidel!!!!!!!!!!

Apparently a bitterly disappointed Democrat.

I'm going to meet him again in the coming weeks.

I was thinking the same thing with him being an OG Silicon Valley kid before moving down here 3 decades ago, but I'm not sure.....I hope to find out.

There was a substantial cluster of kooky expat Americans embedded in the vibrant Wellington start up scene including one who called everyone "comrade" at every opportunity. He used to work for NASA.

Even as an ardent fair trade capitalist, he was my favourite.

But the most impressive was the young Estonian who is 1000 times more brilliant than she is attractive. And she was a stunner.

With all the nationalities represented in the Wellington StartUp ecosystem combined with this thread topic I'm reminded of the only Cubans I ever ran into(outside of Cuban Americans).

They were Cuban doctors working in a southwest pacific country. Not a particularly happy bunch, and not exactly volunteers, more like voluntolds.

Skilled human capital export in exchange for government diplomatic and/or financial benefit.

Quite a few Cuban medical professionals treating like property have defected around the world, although I think the US had a program specifically targeting them for defection.

[Woodsman]

Re: Viva Fidel!!!!!!!!!!

...Quite a few Cuban medical professionals treating like property have defected around the world, although I think the US had a program specifically targeting them for defection.

Are soldiers and officers whose 24 karat private university tuition and expenses are paid by the taxpayer and who incurr an extended commitment as a consequence also "property?"

Most every state that offers to pay for post graduate education requires a commitment of service as a payback for the investment. Cuba does that as does the USA. Take an ROTC scholarship and sign on the dotted line for an 8 year hitch. Get Uncle Sugar to pay for medical school or law school, sign for another 5. Get your paper and refuse to serve, then ante up and get to know your cellmate. Nothing nefarious about that.

But what does one say about people who agree to a contract, receive hundreds of thousands of dollars in specialized medical education, and then welch on the deal? The Cubans call them "gusanos" or worms and that sounds about right in any language.

And what of the rich state who entices these folks to break their word and bond, further impoverishing a poor country and people and denying others poorer still their services? I call that fairly vicious.

A dear friend and child of exiles was reveling in bloodlust on hearing the news of El Barbudo's passing into history. I fear I pissed in his cornflakes when i noted that it seemed odd for exiles to celebrate Castro's victory.

When he asked WTF, I suggested he consider the fact Castro died not by an assassin or exploding cigar or even invasion, but in peace and tranquility in his bed at 90 years of age. He died as the greatest political leader of the 20th Century after defeating the greatest military power in human history.

Proximo ano en Cuba, nunca mas.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Viva Fidel!!!!!!!!!!

Are soldiers and officers whose 24 karat private university tuition and expenses are paid by the taxpayer and who incurr an extended commitment as a consequence also "property?"

Most every state that offers to pay for post graduate education requires a commitment of service as a payback for the investment. Cuba does that as does the USA. Take an ROTC scholarship and sign on the dotted line for an 8 year hitch. Get Uncle Sugar to pay for medical school or law school, sign for another 5. Get your paper and refuse to serve, then ante up and get to know your cellmate. Nothing nefarious about that.

But what does one say about people who agree to a contract, receive hundreds of thousands of dollars in specialized medical education, and then welch on the deal? The Cubans call them "gusanos" or worms and that sounds about right in any language.

And what of the rich state who entices these folks to break their word and bond, further impoverishing a poor country and people and denying others poorer still their services? I call that fairly vicious.

A dear friend and child of exiles was reveling in bloodlust on hearing the news of El Barbudo's passing into history. I fear I pissed in his cornflakes when i noted that it seemed odd for exiles to celebrate Castro's victory.

When he asked WTF, I suggested he consider the fact Castro died not by an assassin or exploding cigar or even invasion, but in peace and tranquility in his bed at 90 years of age. He died as the greatest political leader of the 20th Century after defeating the greatest military power in human history.

Proximo ano en Cuba, nunca mas.

Claiming Cuban medical school education is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars is quite rich considering the incredibly Spartan nature of

Cuban medicine has always been about egalitarian quantity over western quality.

While there is much to be said about creativity inspired by austere necessity, including medicine(of which I have some limited experience with austere/remote medicine), Cuban medical school factories would be generously described as Spartan.

ROTC scholarship/return of service military doctors have options to finance their medical education.

Do Cuban medical students/doctors possess options to choose a different route to their intended destination?

Do they have basic right of freedom to travel or even real choice?

I distinctly recall your intensely inflated outrage a few years ago at my comment about sometimes having to "break some eggs to make an omelet".

Batista was an entitled, ignorant, and parasitic simpleton.

But Castro was an Anthony Bourdain level of international military adventurer and expert "omelet chef" setting up omelet franchises under the Golden Arches red banner franchise of proxy Soviet subsidised communism.

Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot all died in bed or in their sleep. How great were they?

Your rationalising Castro's mass murder, mass incarceration, and foreign military adventure at the behest of a hegemonic superpower, then on his own for national economic survival(Cuba/Venezuela nexus) while constantly railing against the same is not ignorant or one eyed, it's actually quite frightening.

[Woodsman]

Re: Viva Fidel!!!!!!!!!!

...Your rationalising...

I ain't rationalizing nuthin, spooky. Just stating matters of fact in the face indoctrination and propagandizing. No expectation it has any chance of breaking through the conditioning. And I'm so touched at your sympathy for the criminals lined up at La Cabana. There but for the grace of God?

Having suffered through more tiresome drunken rants from alcoholic "consular officers" over Cuba back in the day than any thinking man should, it still astounds me that after all these years the cloak and dagger colleagues never quite got over humiliation. It's unhealthy to dwell on failure. Move on.

And the selective outrage over military adventures by a hegemonic superpower is... well, ufcking hilarious.

Since the end of World War 2, the United States has:

• Attempted to overthrow more than 50 foreign governments, most of which were democratically-elected.
• Dropped bombs on the people of more than 30 countries.
• Attempted to assassinate more than 50 foreign leaders.
• Attempted to suppress a populist or nationalist movement in 20 countries.
• Grossly interfered in democratic elections in at least 30 countries.

Plus … although not easily quantified … has been more involved in the practice of torture than any other country in the world … for over a century … not just performing the actual torture, but teaching it, providing the manuals, and furnishing the equipment.

A collection of thoughts about American foreign policy

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Viva Fidel!!!!!!!!!!

So the United States possesses the sole global monopoly on the exportation of evil and chaos?

I didn't know the US invaded Hungary in 1956, Czechoslovakia in 1968, Afghanistan in 1979, or eradicated any form of opposition or democracy in Poland, Ukraine, and the Baltics.

You possess such a great depth of knowledge on everything covert/clandestine the US has done wrong since George Washington led an illegal insurgency against the Crown, but you conveniently forget everything else done by everyone else, ever.

I don't recall the US deploying combined arms regiments, artillery, and air support to Somalia/Ethiopia's Ogaden War like Cuba did.

Nor do I recall the US deploying combined arms regiments, artillery, and air support to Angola like Cuba did.

There's just two major military adventures far, far from home Castro approved and massively supported with precious human capital and treasure at the behest of the Soviet Union as their #1 proxy war whore.

The best part is the irony of Castro dying on Black Friday.

You can't make this up.

I'll be smoking a Romeo and Juliet with a glass of single malt every year now to celebrate his demise while everyone else shops.

And next October 9th we get to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the execution of that retard revolutionary Che Guevara dying "0 for 2" like an exterminated rat.

If only he had lived long enough to fail a 3rd time after his failure in Congo and failure in Bolivia.

I'll have to break out a really nice cigar for that one, but which Whiskey or Scotch to match it with?

Decisions, decisions.

My apologies, it's inappropriate for me to be celebrating while you mourn

I have to admit my envy in your ability to view the world as so black(US Evil) and white(Cuba/military proxy whore adventurism Good) instead of the ugly grey that it is.

[Woodsman]

Re: Viva Fidel!!!!!!!!!!

You spend so much effort putting words in Woodsman's mouth and chastising him for saying things he didn't say that it would be easier if you could just write both his posts and yours in response, Lake. Before you start there's this concept you should get to know - proportionality. Otherwise it would just sound like you were talking to yourself. Then again, it always does.

I though your drink was vodka martini, shaken not stirred? Anyway, Romeo and Julieta are nice but do try the Cohiba Esplendidos if you can get them. And to really drive the wandering spirit of Fidel mad, pair it with the 11 year Ron Santero. Rocks or neat, please. Leave the Cuba Libres for the Bacardi.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Viva Fidel!!!!!!!!!!

proportionality.

I though your drink was vodka martini, shaken not stirred? Anyway, Romeo and Julieta are nice but do try the Cohiba Esplendidos if you can get them. And to really drive the wandering spirit of Fidel mad, pair it with the 11 year Ron Santero. Rocks or neat, please. Leave the Cuba Libres for the Bacardi.

Speaking of proportionality......

Woodsman did you know that proportionally, more Cuban soldiers served and fought in Angola on behalf of the Soviets(in their final Cold War battle that they won, ironically after they died) than US soldiers did in Vietnam?

We will never know exactly how many Cubans died fighting as Soviet proxy whores on the command of Castro as it was all too embarrassing.

But we do know that reasonable estimates place Cuban casualties at 2 or 3 time minimum dead and wounded than US casualty figures from Vietnam.

Proportionally, that is.

Isn't that interesting?

Maybe have a read of this while you enjoy a mojito(received from one of your growing list of "fans") retrospectively celebrating Castro:

http://polarch.sas.ac.uk/pdf_documen...picalGulag.pdf

Personally, I'm a fan of Punch Lanceros, a more egalitarian and approachable cigar than those haughty and elitist "some are just more equal that others" Cohiba Especials.

[Woodsman]

Re: Viva Fidel!!!!!!!!!!

Speaking of proportionality......

Woodsman did you know that proportionally, more Cuban soldiers served and fought in Angola on behalf of the Soviets(in their final Cold War battle that they won, ironically after they died) than US soldiers did in Vietnam?

We will never know exactly how many Cubans died fighting as Soviet proxy whores on the command of Castro as it was all too embarrassing.

But we do know that reasonable estimates place Cuban casualties at 2 or 3 time minimum dead and wounded than US casualty figures from Vietnam.

Proportionally, that is.

Isn't that interesting?

Maybe have a read of this while you enjoy a mojito(received from one of your growing list of "fans") retrospectively celebrating Castro...Personally, I'm a fan of Punch Lanceros, a more egalitarian and approachable cigar than those haughty and elitist "some are just more equal that others" Cohiba Especials.

Joe McCarthy you're not. I've been red-baited by better and with more panache, I might add. And no, it doesn't strike me as particularly interesting. It's an utterly meaningless statistic when we step back and look at the bigger picture in terms of policy, strategy, cost, and the interests of the American people. No more meaningful than the number of boots worn or the miles of shoestrings fitted with them.

Speaking of a "did you know", did you know we had no business wasting American blood and treasure in Vietnam and even less in Angola?

"But worse was to come. A few short months after the CIA's shameful performance in Vietnam, of which I was part, I was assigned to a managerial position in the CIA's covert Angola program. Under the leadership of the CIA director we lied to Congress and to the 40 Committee, which supervised the CIA's Angola program. We entered into joint activities with South Africa. And we actively propagandized the American public, with cruel results-Americans, misguided by our agents' propaganda, went to fight in Angola in suicidal circumstances. One died, leaving a widow and four children behind. Our secrecy was designed to keep the American public and press from knowing what we were doing-we fully expected an outcry should they find us out."

---

"Carl insisted that it was Kissinger who was pushing the agency into the covert operation in Angola. Kissinger saw the Angolan conflict solely in terms of global politics and was determined the Soviets should not be permitted to make a move in any remote part of the world without being confronted militarily by the United States. Superficially, his opposition to the Soviet presence was being rationalized in terms of Angola's strategic location on the South Atlantic, near the shipping lanes of the giant tankers which bring oil from the Middle East around the horn of Africa to the United States. This argument was not profound. Soviet bases in Somalia had much better control of our shipping lanes, and any military move by the Soviets against our oil supplies would trigger a reaction so vigorous that a Soviet base in Angola would be a trivial factor. In fact, Angola had little plausible importance to American national security and little economic importance beyond the robusta coffee it sold to American markets and the relatively small amounts of petroleum Gulf Oil pumped from the Cabindan fields.

No. Uncomfortable with recent historic events, and frustrated by our humiliation in Vietnam, Kissinger was seeking opportunities to challenge the Soviets."

---

"The CIA was casting about for the next war, amoral, ruthless, eager to do its thing. Its thing being covert little games where the action was secret and no one kept score.

But history increasingly keeps score, and the CIA's operations are never secret for long. Inevitably they are exposed, by our press, by whistleblowers in our government, by our healthy compulsion to know the truth. Covert operations are incompatible with our system of government and we do them badly. Nevertheless, a succession of presidents and Henry Kissingers have been lured into questionable adventures for which, they are promised by the CIA, they will never be held accountable. Generally they are not, they move on to sinecures before the operations are fully exposed. Our country is left to face the consequences."

"In Search of Enemies" by John Stockwell. W.W. Norton, 1978

Apparently not. It's ancient history, IAFeature, and the record is as open as these things are. People don't have to take your word for it or mine. They can look for themselves and come to their own conclusions.

Suit yourself on the smoke. I don't smoke or drink very much these days (although in fact with the Especials I had a couple - one mojito and one Cuba libre. Cliche, I know). Because of that I like to make the three or four I smoke a year count, knowhatimsayinjack?

Anyhoo, like Bill used to say, it depends on the meaning of cigar. What it means to you, I mean.