10 Dallas Police Officers Shot

[vt]

Re: 10 Dallas Police Officers Shot

Raw facts only. This doesn't say how poverty fits in to the equation.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...ables/table-43

http://www.amren.com/news/2015/07/ne...violent-crime/

[lakedaemonian]

Re: 10 Dallas Police Officers Shot

It is not so black and white. Where was the outrage over David Kassick? Who was unarmed and shot and killed by a female police officer in PA?

The reality is, it is not that they are black or white or hispanic, it is that they did not comply with police when ordered and in that high pressure situation where the officer thinks they are reaching for a weapon they shoot.

It is extremely hard to train for any instance where you think your life is in danger, the body just reacts. I train in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and the way new people come in and react when they are in a situation where they know their life isn't in danger but are threatened astounds me. They freak out and do anything not to be choked or arm bared. Even after months of training the majority have not learned to control their emotions/adrenaline when in a disadvantaged position or under threat of being tapped.

I can't imagine what it is like when you fear your actual life is in danger, for anyone, cop, bystander or victim.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/inv...t-nearly-1000/

1000 people were shot and killed by police in the US in 2015. Over 50% of them were white.

"Mearkle, who would later express regret for Kassick’s death, testified that she had “no doubt” that Kassick — who was a heroin addict, though the officer didn’t know that when she gave chase — was reaching for a weapon when he moved toward his jacket pocket as he squirmed in the snow. “There was no reason for him to reach into his frigging pocket!” she yelled in court."

I participated in a BJJ instructor course last year where the candidates were all state/federal law enforcement and military responsible for training their teams to offensively and defensively restrain and control offenders.

Sufficient fitness, training/technique, repetition, and confidence(coming from fitness, training/technique, repetition) allow nearly all law enforcement personnel to confidently restrain nearly everyone.......IF they are fit, trained, and practiced.

The problem is far too many front line law enforcement personnel I've seen in the US(outside of specialist high risk offender focused personnel) are incredibly unfit(just look at the photos of many of the Dallas Police in the aftermath of the recent event as anecdotals), far too many have received little to no unarmed restraint training since attending the police academy, and far too many receive little to no firearms and less than lethal tool training.

Combine the previous with an increasing militarisation of law enforcement in the US(everyone wants to look like an "operator" like they're from Delta Force Seal Team 6, since 9/11 as seen with NYPD Hercules Teams intentional intimidation tactics).

The first thing I'd do is take every fat cop's police car away and give him/her a mountain bike and a 4 city block patrol area and test them on knowing every business owner's name/number and every local resident family name with weekly unarmed restraint training until they are black and blue.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: 10 Dallas Police Officers Shot

Double tap

[lakedaemonian]

Re: 10 Dallas Police Officers Shot

Don't make the mistake of thinking I am justifying anything. I am simply saying that it would be much better to "comply fully" with an officer who has his gun drawn on you. Even so called "poor uneducated" can understand that point.

And for that matter the majority of poor uneducated people in the US are white, more than the black and hispanic poor combined. Granted whites are the majority.



It sounds like you have never been in one of these situations. I have been in many, it is not easy and until you experience the "fight or flight" first hand I believe it is hard to pass judgement.



This is completely true. The narrative around African Americans needs to be changed, the same as the one around Muslims, the same as the one around Appalachian whites, the "poor and uneducated." The whites of Appalachia seem to be the other group of people it is politically acceptable to make fun of on national tv and in daily life. We all know prejudices exist and will never be eliminated from a humans mind, no matter what color they are because it is innate to our make up. At least I do not believe it can be eliminated.

But the simply fact is, black males have committed the majority of violent crimes: New Observer Data on Crimes and Race Statistics. And the other fact is there is negative bias against African Americans by the police and others but also bias in favor of African Americans in many aspects of society.

I searched for this online and most of the crime statistics came up on racial websites so please do not associate those with me. We also all know that the media reports what they want to report.

Either way, the elites continue to force the plebeians to focus on issues of race, abortion, class, poverty in order to keep the eye off of what is really going on, the rentieration of American productivity and income by the 1% in a system designed for capital to accumulate at the top.

No one really wants to discuss facts, only emotions and irrationality. I am 100% guilty of this as well, but I strive for the quest of truth, but what truth?

There is a fragility to Democracy that occurs when we move away from the rule of law as we have been doing for the better part of 50 years, from top to bottom of the political food chain.

We should practice a life of [b]observation[b/],silence, meditation and serenity (conditions which are proscribed by today's society) and a life centered on the quest for truth no matter the cognitive dissonance it creates.

In terms of observation, what I have observed during the last month so far here at Stanford is the overwhelming number of ethnic Asian and Indian parents/children touring campus on a holiday like it's Disney World(not just Mom/Dad with prospective student applicant) or attending Stanford Summer School.

The entire Stanford/Palo Alto area is a huge positive outlier for ethnic Asian/Indian folks, despite some policies that would make it harder than average for some to matriculate.

Around the world I have witnessed countless incidents of racism targeting Asians, Indians, Black Americans, Africans, etc. or just the latent leftover artefacts of racist tendencies.

Sadly, I'm not seeing a large number of black students or applicants visiting campus. Some. But the numbers are pretty thin.

In my SEP program we have 162 candidates.

2 are back, both from Africa, none from America.

Women are at near parity, but all Asian, Indian, Caucasian, Latin-American.

Anecdotals, but it kind of stands out when trying to more deeply observe the environment.

[llanlad2]

Re: 10 Dallas Police Officers Shot

Don't make the mistake of thinking I am justifying anything. I am simply saying that it would be much better to "comply fully" with an officer who has his gun drawn on you. Even so called "poor uneducated" can understand that point

But as you point out when guns are pointed at you maintaining equanimity is difficult. If the police are to be excused mistakes on the grounds of reacting to a "fight or flight" situation how is a member of the public meant to practise a calm and collected response. It is even harder if the "scared" policeman is giving contradictory instructions. If I am asked to get my driving license out and it is in my pocket then following instructions means putting my hand in my pocket and next thing you know I'm dead for doing as instructed. It is the police who need to exercise caution and equanimity first and foremost.

And for that matter the majority of poor uneducated people in the US are white, more than the black and hispanic poor combined. Granted whites are the majority.

Absolutely. Poor who identify as black and white have far more in common than poor "white" and rich "white". It's as much class war as race war.


It sounds like you have never been in one of these situations. I have been in many, it is not easy and until you experience the "fight or flight" first hand I believe it is hard to pass judgement.

And this is where I wholeheartedly agree with Lakedaemonian below. In the UK (which has a large racial mix) the police do not routinely carry firearms. However there are firearms officers. They are called out when there is danger to the public. They are highly trained. They took part in 12550 operations in 2011. And only 2 fatalities occurred. Clearly these officers are called out in high pressure "fight or flight" situations but only two deaths of the public resulted. Each death almost always come with a big hue and cry. In Iceland there has only been one police shooting in 74 years. And this caused a major meltdown. Even though the "victim" had shot two policemen violence was an absolute last resort. Why so few compared to the US? Culture, attitude and training. Or do you think Icelandic and British armed police are cooler and braver?


But the simply fact is, black males have committed the majority of violent crimes: New Observer Data on Crimes and Race Statistics. And the other fact is there is negative bias against African Americans by the police and others but also bias in favor of African Americans in many aspects of society.

This is true and the War on Drugs has a lot answer for and has led to the criminalisation of millions in much the same way that prohibition did for the Italians.

The federal inmate population increased 561 percent from the pre-Prohibition period. State prisons, such as New York’s Sing Sing prison, also saw a large increase, which placed an enormous financial burden on all levels of government. This new burden precipitated a need for more tax revenues, threatening the vibrant economy of the 1920s and limiting government options once the economy began to decline.

In the USA incarcerations for drug offences (as opposed to drug related) increased from 40000 in 1980 to 500000 in 2009 an 1100% increase. It seems to me that the only people winning this war are the private prison firms.

I searched for this online and most of the crime statistics came up on racial websites so please do not associate those with me. We also all know that the media reports what they want to report.

Either way, the elites continue to force the plebeians to focus on issues of race, abortion, class, poverty in order to keep the eye off of what is really going on, the rentieration of American productivity and income by the 1% in a system designed for capital to accumulate at the top.

Absolutely.

No one really wants to discuss facts, only emotions and irrationality. I am 100% guilty of this as well, but I strive for the quest of truth, but what truth?

There is a fragility to Democracy that occurs when we move away from the rule of law as we have been doing for the better part of 50 years, from top to bottom of the political food chain.
Totally agree again.
We should practice a life of observation, silence, meditation and serenity (conditions which are proscribed by today's society) and a life centered on the quest for truth no matter the cognitive dissonance it creates.

Hmm, I'll have to go somewhere quiet and contemplate that....but the should grates a little!

I participated in a BJJ instructor course last year where the candidates were all state/federal law enforcement and military responsible for training their teams to offensively and defensively restrain and control offenders.

Sufficient fitness, training/technique, repetition, and confidence(coming from fitness, training/technique, repetition) allow nearly all law enforcement personnel to confidently restrain nearly everyone.......IF they are fit, trained, and practiced.

The problem is far too many front line law enforcement personnel I've seen in the US(outside of specialist high risk offender focused personnel) are incredibly unfit(just look at the photos of many of the Dallas Police in the aftermath of the recent event as anecdotals), far too many have received little to no unarmed restraint training since attending the police academy, and far too many receive little to no firearms and less than lethal tool training.

Combine the previous with an increasing militarisation of law enforcement in the US(everyone wants to look like an "operator" like they're from Delta Force Seal Team 6, since 9/11 as seen with NYPD Hercules Teams intentional intimidation tactics).

The first thing I'd do is take every fat cop's police car away and give him/her a mountain bike and a 4 city block patrol area and test them on knowing every business owner's name/number and every local resident family name with weekly unarmed restraint training until they are black and blue.

Couldn't agree more. More training needed. I'm guessing most training is in the use of firearms and not "how can I avoid using lethal force unless absolutely necessary?" Lethal force seems to be the first resort.

Look at these 4 videos and tell me that there isn't a difference in attitude/response of the police in the UK and US. Flight or fight has very little to do with it. The second two videos are particularly disturbing and show nothing less than disrespect for human life..

[Woodsman]

Re: 10 Dallas Police Officers Shot

Indeed. The Sweeping Generalization is a popular propaganda technique lately, a comforting substitute for the difficult task of thinking. All the cool kids are doing it!

And how much thinking does it take to reduce the concept of stereotypes to the simplistic binary Lake posited and you second, Shiny?

Within psychology and spanning across multiples of other disciplines, there are different conceptualizations and theories of stereotyping, some sharing commonalities, though each also harbor unique aspects and are contradictory of the others. People who hold this binary view usually evidence confusion and misunderstanding about the concept, conflating the related but most definitely discrete concepts of stereotypes, prejudice, and discrimination as all being about the same, and always all bad.

That's the problem when we try to simplify and reduce vast concepts of social psychology and sociology like stereotyping into black and white binaries of good and bad, or in this case, bad and worse.

Stereotypes are cognitive and are usually unconscious, whereas prejudice is affective and discrimination is behavioral, with each element a component of the other. Moreover, stereotypes reflect individual's expectations and beliefs about the characteristics of other individuals assumed to be members of a group perceived as different from one's own, whereas prejudice represents the emotional response to those differences and discrimination refers to actions based on those emotional responses. Further still, the three concepts exist independently of each other.

In addition to that, rather being "all bad," stereotypes are generally ambivalent and vary along two dimensions: warmth and competence. These are further organized by high and low levels of warmth and competence respectively predicted by the degree of competition and status present in the social relationship. This results in a model that has four combinations eliciting distinct emotions:

Paternalism based on perceptions of low competence and high warmth.
Envy based on perceptions of high competence and low warmth.
Contempt based on perceptions of low competence and low warmth.
Admiration based on perceptions of high competence and high warmth.

Groups that do not compete with the in-group for the same resources (e.g., college admissions) are perceived as warm, whereas high-status (e.g., economically or educationally successful) groups are considered competent.

So it isn't as simple as either you or Lake understand it to be if understanding is what one seeks. But it's real simple if what one seeks is justification of the status quo and avoidance of the hard thinking necessary to make positive and substantive change.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: 10 Dallas Police Officers Shot

And how much thinking does it take to reduce the concept of stereotypes to the simplistic binary Lake posited and you second, Shiny?

Within psychology and spanning across multiples of other disciplines, there are different conceptualizations and theories of stereotyping, some sharing commonalities, though each also harbor unique aspects and are contradictory of the others. People who hold this binary view usually evidence confusion and misunderstanding about the concept, conflating the related but most definitely discrete concepts of stereotypes, prejudice, and discrimination as all being about the same, and always all bad.

That's the problem when we try to simplify and reduce vast concepts of social psychology and sociology like stereotyping into black and white binaries of good and bad, or in this case, bad and worse.

Stereotypes are cognitive and are usually unconscious, whereas prejudice is affective and discrimination is behavioral, with each element a component of the other. Moreover, stereotypes reflect individual's expectations and beliefs about the characteristics of other individuals assumed to be members of a group perceived as different from one's own, whereas prejudice represents the emotional response to those differences and discrimination refers to actions based on those emotional responses. Further still, the three concepts exist independently of each other.

In addition to that, rather being "all bad," stereotypes are generally ambivalent and vary along two dimensions: warmth and competence. These are further organized by high and low levels of warmth and competence respectively predicted by the degree of competition and status present in the social relationship. This results in a model that has four combinations eliciting distinct emotions:

Paternalism based on perceptions of low competence and high warmth.
Envy based on perceptions of high competence and low warmth.
Contemp based on perceptions of low competence and low warmth.
Admiration based on perceptions of high competence and high warmth.

Groups that do not compete with the in-group for the same resources (e.g., college admissions) are perceived as warm, whereas high-status (e.g., economically or educationally successful) groups are considered competent.

So it isn't as simple as either you or Lake understand it to be if understanding is what one seeks. But it's real simple if what one seeks is justification of the status quo and avoidance of the hard thinking necessary to make positive and substantive change.

You post an article with a predetermined all encompassing unary statement as "fact"(not even an argument) and respond by telling us WE need to expand our thinking?

And you polish it off with a quaternary argument response telling me I must fit into a round, square, triangular, or trapezoid as my only choices.

Oh the irony.

[Woodsman]

Re: 10 Dallas Police Officers Shot

...Oh the irony.

Yeah, you betcha, Lake. I wish truth and fact would intersect less painfully sometimes, too. Believe me.

Don't take it personally and forgive me if this is all too close and real for me to communicate to you in a way that does not threaten; which when you come to think of it is prima facie funny as shit if it wasn't totally farcical. I totally appreciate you giving me the space to say what I think about this out loud in this safe and encouraging and challenging community, given the fundamental realities of power that have been played out writ large (yet again) for us little nobody expendables, livestreamed on Facebook like some real life Hunger Games. Trust me, I understand the power dynamic and afford it the respect it goddamn well demands. I hope my sincerity is coming across here.

But hey man, in the end it's just another observation as you are fond of pointing out yourself. Only these have been documented, peer-reviewed and are making their way across the epistemological cycle into cannon, orthodoxy, cynicism, rejection, and onward and forever until God shows herself, we perfect ourselves, or the will to power kills us all and the planet gets to start over again.

I would ask for the sake of deescalation that you not personalize it or look at it as a "thou shalt." It's descriptive, not prescriptive. Maybe look to what POZ said about how one might deal with it. It makes sense to me, only if I can get around the hoodoo guru feeling.

And it goes without saying that you understand somebody's gotta write it down for folks to pass on, test, confirm, challenge, synthesize, alter and reject. Maybe we get it right, maybe it's a jobs program? I don't know anymore and I've been at it 40 years straight out of graduate school in one way or another. No doubt I tacked left when everybody around me tacked right, but what's a guy to do? Me, I'm just doing the best I can like everybody else, trying to figure out what how the Hell we rolled off the tracks in this great and noble beast of a nation and where the heck it's going to crash so I can stay out of the way and help the young ones get the wheels going again, however it all plays out in the short time I have left. I sometimes wish I could live to see it, but nobody will, so I don't feel so bad.

How you liking Palo Alto? I gotta tell you, that's some spendy sheepskin you're buying. Totally jeally!

[lakedaemonian]

Re: 10 Dallas Police Officers Shot

Yeah, you betcha, Lake. I wish truth and fact would intersect less painfully sometimes, too. Believe me.

Don't take it personally and forgive me if this is all too close and real for me to communicate to you in a way that does not threaten; which when you come to think of it is prima facie funny as shit if it wasn't totally farcical. I totally appreciate you giving me the space to say what I think about this out loud in this safe and encouraging and challenging community, given the fundamental realities of power that have been played out writ large (yet again) for us little nobody expendables, livestreamed on Facebook like some real life Hunger Games. Trust me, I understand the power dynamic and afford it the respect it goddamn well demands. I hope my sincerity is coming across here.

But hey man, in the end it's just another observation as you are fond of pointing out yourself. Only these have been documented, peer-reviewed and are making their way across the epistemological cycle into cannon, orthodoxy, cynicism, rejection, and onward and forever until God shows herself, we perfect ourselves, or the will to power kills us all and the planet gets to start over again.

I would ask for the sake of deescalation that you not personalize it or look at it as a "thou shalt." It's descriptive, not prescriptive. Maybe look to what POZ said about how one might deal with it. It makes sense to me, only if I can get around the hoodoo guru feeling.

And it goes without saying that you understand somebody's gotta write it down for folks to pass on, test, confirm, challenge, synthesize, alter and reject. Maybe we get it right, maybe it's a jobs program? I don't know anymore and I've been at it 40 years straight out of graduate school in one way or another. No doubt I tacked left when everybody around me tacked right, but what's a guy to do? Me, I'm just doing the best I can like everybody else, trying to figure out what how the Hell we rolled off the tracks in this great and noble beast of a nation and where the heck it's going to crash so I can stay out of the way and help the young ones get the wheels going again, however it all plays out in the short time I have left. I sometimes wish I could live to see it, but nobody will, so I don't feel so bad.

How you liking Palo Alto? I gotta tell you, that's some spendy sheepskin you're buying. Totally jeally!

Yeah. It's nothing personal from me either.

Even when I get passionate about something(like this). I try to look at it as dispassionately as I can as an internal check sum.

This place is epic.

It truly is THE centre of the entrepreneurial universe(although from from the ONLY).

I hope to be able to share more going forward, but with some things I've given my word not to, or signed some bits of paper.

Lots of great and some bad things(micro/macro bubble indicators) happening here.

Well worth every cent so far of mine and/or taxpayer funds.