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  • #46
    Re: Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia Dead

    Originally posted by vt View Post
    It's all politics and they all change their stories...
    You're correct and there's no denying the reality of all politics/no statesmanship. From an ego preserving standpoint it easy to appreciate why so many among the mass of GOP and Democratic Party voters still find it hard to make an honest critique of their politics, ideologies and the catastrophic failures they've manifested across 40 years.

    I expect such introspection can only come after crisis and collapse, but I think people on the right remain in deep denial about the decay and rot at the core of their party and their collective surrender to the id. And it's no false equivalence to recognize a Democratic Party made equally grotesque by incompetence, cronyism, and corruption, all perfectly embodied by the Clintons.

    But where the rise of Sanders and the ongoing collapse of Hillary serves as a temporal marker of an emerging shift in Democratic politics, the GOP seems ever further from reform and redemption. Nothing quite matches today's GOP in terms of careerists, corporate bagmen, egomaniacs and kooks.

    They think nothing of holding the country hostage until their demands are met, most recently exemplified by their proposals regarding the Scalia replacement. Recall also the willingness to trigger a fiscal crisis during debt ceiling negotiations, the continuing threats of another government shutdown, and various instances of perfidy going all the way back to Bush v Gore, the impeachment trial of 1999, Iran-Contra and Watergate.

    Over the last four decades, the Republican Party has metastasized from a loyal and principled opposition into an insurrectionist radical party that flouts the law when it is in the majority and threatens chaos when it is the minority.

    That said, it is a mistake to think we've reached the present crisis due to the feckless cynicism of the GOP alone, even as we recognize the peculiar distastefulness and repugnance of their actual and titular leadership. Here I think recognition for the grandest failure and betrayal must go undoubtedly to the Democratic Party and elite media tag team for reasons outlined in detail elsewhere and whose counterreaction we see in the remarkable success of the Sanders campaign.

    The GOP set out to delegitimize government in the minds of the American people. Their antics and obstructionism are simultaneously a manifestation of a political sickness and an effective tool of insurgency. For each time the mass of low information citizens see the inaction of government in the face of partisan rancor their opinion and trust in their government diminishes further, as does their confidence in democracy itself.

    The rain may fall on the good and bad alike, but to maintain the "pox on both houses" attitude of false equivalency requires one to willingly ignore the reality of who precipitates needless crisis after crisis and those who despair of it. It takes a concerted effort of will to remain oblivious that a sizable faction of the GOP has deliberately attempted to damage the reputation of government, sacrificing the long term needs of the country so as to achieve political and ideological objectives.

    And we know what their political and ideological objectives are because they have articulated them rather clearly over the decades, if less than transparent by their rhetoric, than with certain clarity by their actions: plutocracy, militarism and theocracy, all wrapped in a red white and blue blanket of American exceptionalism.

    What does one say about a political party that has taken on the appearance of a cult run on behalf of plutocrats furiously working to materialize a new Gilded Age capitalized by financial malfeasance, war profiteering, and technological panopticism?

    How do we approach a party operated by theocrats eager to manifest the American Dominion by supplementing the USC with biblical law? What is the response to a bipartisan consensus whose product is global chaos and domestic misery? And what does one think about a people who stubbornly refuse to confront this reality?

    I agree with jk that changing minds and hearts seem beyond our abilities. And in keeping to my hugs and kisses promise to Shiny!, I'm making a personal effort to keep a detached mindfulness with regard to the silly season. But facts are facts even as we rededicate ourselves to the pursuit of developing strategies in response to what is and to the exclusion of what should be.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia Dead

      Originally posted by Woodsman View Post

      The rain may fall on the good and bad alike, but to maintain the "pox on both houses" attitude of false equivalency requires one to willingly ignore the reality of who precipitates needless crisis after crisis and those who despair of it. It takes a concerted effort of will to remain oblivious that a sizable faction of the GOP has deliberately attempted to damage the reputation of government, sacrificing the long term needs of the country so as to achieve political and ideological objectives....


      How do we approach a party operated by theocrats eager to manifest the American Dominion by supplementing the USC with biblical law? What is the response to a bipartisan consensus whose product is global chaos and domestic misery? And what does one think about a people who stubbornly refuse to confront this reality?

      I agree with jk that changing minds and hearts seem beyond our abilities. And in keeping to my hugs and kisses promise to Shiny!, I'm making a personal effort to keep a detached mindfulness with regard to the silly season. But facts are facts even as we rededicate ourselves to the pursuit of developing strategies in response to what is and to the exclusion of what should be.
      yes, woodsman, but what is to be done? in the face of what appear to be vast politico-economic processes, i am left with quietism.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia Dead

        i gotta hand it to ya woody - when you are right, you REALLY ARE GOOD.

        and its not very often i agree with you, but here i must:

        Originally posted by Woodsman View Post
        You're correct and there's no denying the reality of all politics/no statesmanship. ...
        ....
        I expect such introspection can only come after crisis and collapse, but I think people on the right remain in deep denial about the decay and rot at the core of their party and their collective surrender to the id.

        And it's no false equivalence to recognize a Democratic Party made equally grotesque by

        incompetence, cronyism, and corruption, all perfectly embodied by the Clintons.


        But where the rise of Sanders and the ongoing collapse of Hillary serves as a temporal marker of an emerging shift in Democratic politics, the GOP seems ever further from reform and redemption. Nothing quite matches today's GOP in terms of careerists, corporate bagmen, egomaniacs and kooks.

        They think nothing of holding the country hostage until their demands are met, most recently exemplified by their proposals regarding the Scalia replacement. Recall also the willingness to trigger a fiscal crisis during debt ceiling negotiations, the continuing threats of another government shutdown, and various instances of perfidy going all the way back to Bush v Gore, the impeachment trial of 1999, Iran-Contra and Watergate.
        and to think most of that started when wildbill looked straight into the cameras, pointed his finger and exclaimed:

        "..I DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH THAT WOMAN.."

        thus causing the largest disruption of .gov ops since - TADA!
        watergate..

        and THEN, he signed NAFTA, repealed glass-steagall, deregulated derivitives trading etc etc
        (thus screwing We, The People like no other series of legislative disasters ever before in the history of The US!)

        and when their term was up - where did they go after they left the whitehouse?????

        some dusty ranch in the mid/west? - like pert near all the rest of em did - no sirreee bob - they carpetbaggered off to WHERE?

        heh...

        manhattan (or chapaqua.. or in bills case.. the bronx - and hillary 'just happened' to become a NY senator - what - a year or so later?

        TELL ME THAT WASNT PURE QUID PRO QUO - demorat style - for all the 'favors' he did for the lower manhattan bankster mob, after he practically handed them the keys to the UStreasury in his last couple years!?

        and we wont even get into the 1st bombing of the WTC, where instead of treating it for what it in fact was - AN ACT OF WAR!!
        after which he and his dipstick buddies called not the generals, but the GD lawyers and treated it as a criminal act

        Over the last four decades, the Republican Party has metastasized from a loyal and principled opposition into an insurrectionist radical party that flouts the law when it is in the majority and threatens chaos when it is the minority.

        That said, it is a mistake to think we've reached the present crisis due to the feckless cynicism of the GOP alone, even as we recognize the peculiar distastefulness and repugnance of their actual and titular leadership. Here I think recognition for the grandest failure and betrayal must go undoubtedly to the Democratic Party and elite media tag team for reasons outlined in detail elsewhere and whose counterreaction we see in the remarkable success of the Sanders campaign.

        The GOP set out to delegitimize government in the minds of the American people. Their antics and obstructionism are simultaneously a manifestation of a political sickness and an effective tool of insurgency. For each time the mass of low information citizens see the inaction of government in the face of partisan rancor their opinion and trust in their government diminishes further, as does their confidence in democracy itself.....
        i cant disagree with much of this and its a mind boggler when even a sorta kinda rightwinger like me is about to register as a dem
        not so much to vote for a guy like bernie as to DENY HITLERY THE NOMINATION!

        (cuz if that bitch walks into the whitehouse again it will mark THE END OF THE USA as We, The People have known it
        and everything that was fought and died for over the past 3+ centuries will have been FOR NOT!
        )

        adding:
        O&BTW..
        re: the comment about the "..elite media tag team..." above

        could ya JUST IMAGINE THE HOWLING FROM THE LAMERSTREAM MEDIA if it had been a Republican ex-prez who setup a 'charitable' foundation that took in HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS from not only his cronies, but from governments somewhat less-than-friendly to The US??

        all while HIS WIFE WAS THE SECRETARY OF STATE !!!!???

        and what do we get from them?



        other than (all) that, i really dont have much of an opinion...
        Last edited by lektrode; February 18, 2016, 05:47 PM.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia Dead

          "In 2014, the Supreme Court ruled that Obama's recess appointments, in spite of Congress technically being in session, were unconstitutional.

          Again, this ruling was not a partisan issue. It was a unanimous decision, authored by liberal justice Stephen Breyer."



          The Democrats' Hypocrisy on Partisan Obstruction of Judicial Nominations

          12:20 PM, FEB 17, 2016 | By MARK HEMINGWAY

          Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid took to the pages of the Washington Post recently to write about Republican efforts to block any nominee to replace Justice Scalia. In drearily predictable fashion, the op-ed is headlined, "For the good of the country, stop your nakedly partisan obstruction."

          There's a case to be made that our judicial confirmation process is broken, and that partisan politics are the main impediment to getting a justice confirmed. However, Harry Reid, Joe Biden, President Obama and their fellow Democrats are the ones who broke the process in the first place, and if they don't like that the GOP is holding up the process, they're just just reaping what they sowed.

          Ironically enough, the last Supreme Court nominee to slide through the Senate without partisan objections was Scalia. Then Joe Biden happened. If there's any one person who is single-handedly responsible for wrecking the judicial confirmation process, it's the current vice president and president of the Senate. I touched on his contributions here in a piece on his career legacy for the magazine in October:

          In the eighties, Biden was known for two things. First, he presided over Robert Bork's Supreme Court confirmation hearings. The year before Biden took over the chairmanship of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Antonin Scalia had been confirmed by a vote of 98-0. Biden initially pledged support for Bork. "Say the administration sends up Bork, and, after our investigations, he looks a lot like Scalia. I'd have to vote for him, and if the [special interest] groups tear me apart, that's the medicine I'll have to take," he told the Philadelphia Inquirer.



          But under Biden's leadership, the Bork confirmation hearings were a circus of unprecedented and unjustified personal attacks. They succeeded in keeping Bork's powerful legal mind off the Court, hugely consequential to conservatives and liberals both. As a practical political matter, it didn't affect the immediate balance of power on the Court. Similar tactics failed to derail the next conservative nominee, Clarence Thomas.

          But Biden's legacy is such that even liberals now use the term "borking" as a pejorative. It's not a stretch to accuse him of wrecking the judicial nomination process—Biden is the reason once-routine judicial appointments now bring Congress to a halt.

          It's probably not coincidental that the grandstanding involved in the Bork hearings served to elevate Biden's national profile as he ran for president in 1988.
          Had a towering figure such as Bork rightfully been appointed to the high court, there's little doubt that it would have have changed America for the better.

          More recently, when he was Senate Majority Leader at the end of the Bush administration, Harry Reid took dramatic action to prevent President Bush from making any appointments whatsoever. Democrats were frustrated by some of Bush's recess appointments, especially John Bolton as U.N. ambassador. But in fairness to Bush, the Democratic Senate's partisan obstruction was completely out of hand. In late 2007, the Harry Reid-led Senate had a backlog of more than 200 appointments that it had failed to act on, including dozens of judges. In order to prevent Bush from filling any of those slots with recess appointments, Reid started holding 30 second "pro-forma" sessions over the holidays so the Senate would technically be in session and the president would be constitutionally prohibited from making recess appointments.

          As if this wasn't bad enough, then Barack Obama came into office and tried to to blow up the consensus on how it was possible for Senate to block recess appointments. Despite Republicans not going into session for any more than three days to prevent recess appointments, in 2012 Obama went ahead anyway and made three recess appointments to the National Labor Relations Board, arguing that the 30 second pro forma sessions Democrats had recently embraced were illegitimate now that Republicans were using them. (In an amazing act of hypocrisy, Reid publicly supported Obama's decision to ignore Congress holding pro-forma sessions.)

          And far from being an issue of simple partisan gridlock, one of Obama's NLRB recess appointments, Craig Becker, was such a radical labor lawyer he'd already been rejected 52-33 vote by the Senate, with even a handful of Democrats voting against him. However, Becker was such a favorite of unions (who spent $400 million helping Obama get elected) that the president appointed him anyway.

          In 2014, the Supreme Court ruled that Obama's recess appointments, in spite of Congress technically being in session, were unconstitutional. Again, this ruling was not a partisan issue. It was a unanimous decision, authored by liberal justice Stephen Breyer.

          There are legitimate reasons to bemoan partisan gridlock and the lack of comity in Congress about these matters. But Harry Reid is in no position to suddenly complain, as he does, that "the Senate would sabotage the highest court in the United States and aim a procedural missile at the foundation of our system of checks and balances."

          For decades now, the current leaders of the Democratic party have show zero respect for either the spirit or the letter of the Constitution when it comes to presidential appointments and the Senate's advice and consent role in the process. And given their behavior, they have no right to expect Republicans to now show them the respect and deference they themselves have long refused to grant.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia Dead

            Originally posted by Woodsman View Post
            You're correct and there's no denying the reality of all politics/no statesmanship. From an ego preserving standpoint it easy to appreciate why so many among the mass of GOP and Democratic Party voters still find it hard to make an honest critique of their politics, ideologies and the catastrophic failures they've manifested across 40 years.

            I expect such introspection can only come after crisis and collapse, but I think people on the right remain in deep denial about the decay and rot at the core of their party and their collective surrender to the id. And it's no false equivalence to recognize a Democratic Party made equally grotesque by incompetence, cronyism, and corruption, all perfectly embodied by the Clintons.

            But where the rise of Sanders and the ongoing collapse of Hillary serves as a temporal marker of an emerging shift in Democratic politics, the GOP seems ever further from reform and redemption. Nothing quite matches today's GOP in terms of careerists, corporate bagmen, egomaniacs and kooks.

            They think nothing of holding the country hostage until their demands are met, most recently exemplified by their proposals regarding the Scalia replacement. Recall also the willingness to trigger a fiscal crisis during debt ceiling negotiations, the continuing threats of another government shutdown, and various instances of perfidy going all the way back to Bush v Gore, the impeachment trial of 1999, Iran-Contra and Watergate.

            Over the last four decades, the Republican Party has metastasized from a loyal and principled opposition into an insurrectionist radical party that flouts the law when it is in the majority and threatens chaos when it is the minority.

            That said, it is a mistake to think we've reached the present crisis due to the feckless cynicism of the GOP alone, even as we recognize the peculiar distastefulness and repugnance of their actual and titular leadership. Here I think recognition for the grandest failure and betrayal must go undoubtedly to the Democratic Party and elite media tag team for reasons outlined in detail elsewhere and whose counterreaction we see in the remarkable success of the Sanders campaign.

            The GOP set out to delegitimize government in the minds of the American people. Their antics and obstructionism are simultaneously a manifestation of a political sickness and an effective tool of insurgency. For each time the mass of low information citizens see the inaction of government in the face of partisan rancor their opinion and trust in their government diminishes further, as does their confidence in democracy itself.

            The rain may fall on the good and bad alike, but to maintain the "pox on both houses" attitude of false equivalency requires one to willingly ignore the reality of who precipitates needless crisis after crisis and those who despair of it. It takes a concerted effort of will to remain oblivious that a sizable faction of the GOP has deliberately attempted to damage the reputation of government, sacrificing the long term needs of the country so as to achieve political and ideological objectives.

            And we know what their political and ideological objectives are because they have articulated them rather clearly over the decades, if less than transparent by their rhetoric, than with certain clarity by their actions: plutocracy, militarism and theocracy, all wrapped in a red white and blue blanket of American exceptionalism.

            What does one say about a political party that has taken on the appearance of a cult run on behalf of plutocrats furiously working to materialize a new Gilded Age capitalized by financial malfeasance, war profiteering, and technological panopticism?

            How do we approach a party operated by theocrats eager to manifest the American Dominion by supplementing the USC with biblical law? What is the response to a bipartisan consensus whose product is global chaos and domestic misery? And what does one think about a people who stubbornly refuse to confront this reality?

            I agree with jk that changing minds and hearts seem beyond our abilities. And in keeping to my hugs and kisses promise to Shiny!, I'm making a personal effort to keep a detached mindfulness with regard to the silly season. But facts are facts even as we rededicate ourselves to the pursuit of developing strategies in response to what is and to the exclusion of what should be.
            Thank you Woody.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia Dead

              Originally posted by jk View Post
              yes, woodsman, but what is to be done? in the face of what appear to be vast politico-economic processes, i am left with quietism.
              I think that's a mistake jk. The time to calmly accept your circumstances is at the end of life, not at turning points during your life. What to do? Vote and get everyone you know energized to do the same. Take a stand. Certainly the buffoons on the right will do that. If you choose repose, they have a steamroller. If you give up, it will be damn quiet when they're done.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia Dead

                Originally posted by santafe2 View Post
                I think that's a mistake jk. The time to calmly accept your circumstances is at the end of life, not at turning points during your life. What to do? Vote and get everyone you know energized to do the same. Take a stand. Certainly the buffoons on the right will do that. If you choose repose, they have a steamroller. If you give up, it will be damn quiet when they're done.
                by that, i ASSume you are inferring that the buffoons on the left WONT?
                WHICH EXPLAINS PRECISELY WHY HITLERY IS APPEALING TO THEM

                or maybe more precisely why her cheerleaders (apologists) in the lamerstream media, are, anyway - with a BRONX CHEER to them...


                Last edited by lektrode; February 19, 2016, 03:26 PM.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia Dead

                  Originally posted by santafe2 View Post
                  I think that's a mistake jk. The time to calmly accept your circumstances is at the end of life, not at turning points during your life. What to do? Vote and get everyone you know energized to do the same. Take a stand. Certainly the buffoons on the right will do that. If you choose repose, they have a steamroller. If you give up, it will be damn quiet when they're done.
                  i think if i lived in fla, or ohio or virginia or some other swing state i'd be more interested in voting for president. but in truth, for any individual voting is symbolic, and its main effect is on the psychology of the voter, far more than on the election. otoh, i recognize that that psychology, that feeling of participation in and ownership of the political process, is important for social cohesion. we've argued over political issues here as if our arguments make a difference. i'm just coming to accept more fully that they don't.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia Dead

                    Originally posted by jk View Post
                    i think if i lived in fla, or ohio or virginia or some other swing state i'd be more interested in voting for president. but in truth, for any individual voting is symbolic, and its main effect is on the psychology of the voter, far more than on the election. otoh, i recognize that that psychology, that feeling of participation in and ownership of the political process, is important for social cohesion. we've argued over political issues here as if our arguments make a difference. i'm just coming to accept more fully that they don't.
                    I doubt if reading all the political arguments here has caused even one person in this forum to change their political beliefs or the way they vote.

                    Outside this forum, if our votes really mattered we wouldn't be allowed to vote.

                    Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia Dead

                      Interview with Antonin Scalia on a broad range of topics. Now I know why there've been so many more cases in recent years about religious displays in public places:
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE9biZT_z1k


                      Interview with Antonin Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsberg, who were close personal friends:
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0utJAu_iG4

                      Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia Dead

                        Originally posted by santafe2 View Post
                        Thank you Woody.
                        2nd.

                        Originally posted by 0C
                        ...it appears it's time to teach Hillary's old lap dogs a new trick...



                        Source: Investors.com

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia Dead

                          Joe Biden argued for delaying Supreme Court picks in 1992:

                          "Democrats keep saying that the Senate has a constitutional duty to vote on PresidentObama’s nominee to fill the Supreme Court vacancy this year. We’ve already heard Senators Chuck Schumer and Harry Reid on tape saying the exact opposite when a Republican was President, and now we learn that Vice President Joe Biden also had a different view back in the day." WSJ

                          Video:

                          http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/23/us/politics/joe-biden-argued-for-delaying-supreme-court-picks-in-1992.html?_r=0
                          Last edited by vt; February 22, 2016, 11:15 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia Dead

                            Originally posted by jk View Post
                            otoh, i recognize that that psychology, that feeling of participation in and ownership of the political process, is important for social cohesion. we've argued over political issues here as if our arguments make a difference. i'm just coming to accept more fully that they don't.
                            I hate to admit it but you may be right. The clown posters have shown up to close out what could have been an interesting discussion. I'll work to be less political and maybe the clowns will go away.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia Dead

                              Originally posted by santafe2 View Post
                              I hate to admit it but you may be right. The clown posters have shown up to close out what could have been an interesting discussion. I'll work to be less political and maybe the clowns will go away.
                              it's gresham's law of online communities. but the political stuff hastens the process.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia Dead

                                Originally posted by jk View Post
                                it's gresham's law of online communities. but the political stuff hastens the process.
                                It's unfortunate. We saw this here with the climate change discussion. There is zero doubt it's happening and zero doubt it's less than an excellent outcome for humanity but the political zealots killed the argument before we could begin to talk about solutions. It's a complex issue and those that only see issues through a political mirror make these discussions impossible.

                                Comment

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