Turkey downs Russian fighter jet over Syria

[verdo]

Link to story here

I'd like to know peoples thoughts on this. I got up this morning to see the story, and the first thought in my mind was...how in the hell does ISIS down a supersonic Russian jet? Is russian military equipment that dated and obsolete? Well lo and behold...I learn that Turkey had shot it down claiming that they were violating turkish airspace. Look, say what you want about Putin, but given Turkey's tacit support of ISIS, from buying their oil, to bombing kurdish forces trying to fight isis, this most recent incident honestly seals the deal for me when it comes to Turkey. The Turkish government, or at least some part of it supports ISIS. How do you justify shooting down a russian jet, knowing that they are there trying to take down an enemy Turkey should have been dealing with themselves long ago? You're telling me that turkey can't give russia a bit of leeway to use a sliver of their airspace to take these guys down near the border? I mean, they acted as if the Russian jet was headed straight for Instanbul, missiles loaded. Perhaps if this were the only incident with Turkey, maybe i could give them some sort of benefit of the doubt, but time and time again they've shown that they aren't serious about fighting ISIS, to the point where you would swear ISIS and Turkey were allies. It's really hard for me to turn a blind eye to this. Even if turkey was in the right, could they not avoid shooting it down to avoid an unnecessary international incident, and then complain about it to the right bodies after the fact? I know all the powers have their own interests being in the region, including Putin, but to take this plane down was callous as hell in my view

[touchring]

Re: Turkey downs Russian fighter jet over Syria

If ISIS is backed by CIA, why wouldn't Turkey, the new 51st state taking the place of the UK which has gone over to China, be allied with ISIS?

[jk]

Re: Turkey downs Russian fighter jet over Syria

the increasing concentration of power by erdogan is a great concern, and undermining what has been the closest-to-democratic middle eastern muslim state. restarting active hostilities with the kurds was key to erdogan's party taking back the majority in the recent elections. i think erdogan's policies are totally directed towards consolidating his own power and need to be viewed in that light.

[Mega]

Re: Turkey downs Russian fighter jet over Syria

Very surpized Russia was silly enough to get "Caught" by this one!

Some time last year a Syrian jet was shot down in the same location..............Turkey had made it clear that there is a "Air zone" over the boader. So much for Russia having advanced ECM's..........althought i do wonder if it was hit by a ground base system?...............F16/Anram seems a bit weak to beat up on an SU24.....

Anyway, the pilots were quickly caught.....tortured & killed & Helecopter resue force attacked....

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-1...i-tank-missile

Oh Joy

In my mind Putin has made his first real miscalulation.........Turkey would not DARE attack Russia, it get 57% of its Gas from Russia...............he was wrong.

Mike

[Mega]

Re: Turkey downs Russian fighter jet over Syria

[shiny!]

Re: Turkey downs Russian fighter jet over Syria

Looks like the proxy war between the US and Russia just got more real. Not good.

[GRG55]

Re: Turkey downs Russian fighter jet over Syria

Link to story here

I'd like to know peoples thoughts on this. I got up this morning to see the story, and the first thought in my mind was...how in the hell does ISIS down a supersonic Russian jet? Is russian military equipment that dated and obsolete? Well lo and behold...I learn that Turkey had shot it down claiming that they were violating turkish airspace. Look, say what you want about Putin, but given Turkey's tacit support of ISIS, from buying their oil, to bombing kurdish forces trying to fight isis, this most recent incident honestly seals the deal for me when it comes to Turkey. The Turkish government, or at least some part of it supports ISIS. How do you justify shooting down a russian jet, knowing that they are there trying to take down an enemy Turkey should have been dealing with themselves long ago? You're telling me that turkey can't give russia a bit of leeway to use a sliver of their airspace to take these guys down near the border? I mean, they acted as if the Russian jet was headed straight for Instanbul, missiles loaded. Perhaps if this were the only incident with Turkey, maybe i could give them some sort of benefit of the doubt, but time and time again they've shown that they aren't serious about fighting ISIS, to the point where you would swear ISIS and Turkey were allies. It's really hard for me to turn a blind eye to this. Even if turkey was in the right, could they not avoid shooting it down to avoid an unnecessary international incident, and then complain about it to the right bodies after the fact? I know all the powers have their own interests being in the region, including Putin, but to take this plane down was callous as hell in my view

Facts tend to get lost or made up in the fog of war. Might be useful to remember this was an armed, state-of-the-art high performance military aircraft operating in a zone of active hostilities, not KAL 007.

[EJ]

Re: Turkey downs Russian fighter jet over Syria

Facts tend to get lost or made up in the fog of war. Might be useful to remember this was an armed, state-of-the-art high performance military aircraft operating in a zone of active hostilities, not KAL 007.

I suspect but of course have no evidence that many warnings were ignored and a high stakes bluff was called.

Sad for the pilot and his family. A pawn in The Game.

[touchring]

Re: Turkey downs Russian fighter jet over Syria

I'm not surprised that an accident like this may happen as accidents do happen, but I'm more intrigued by the fact that the so called "moderates" would actually execute the pilots on parachute.

Actions speak louder than words.

At least the ISIS "terrorists" allowed the Jordanian pilot to be captured alive - never mind what happened to him after that.

These "moderates" have proved themselves to be even more dangerous than Assad regime soldiers and probably no less dangerous than ISIS fighters.

I shudder to think how many of them have or are going to sneak into Europe as "political refugees" on the basis that they are persecuted by the Assad regime.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Turkey downs Russian fighter jet over Syria

I'm not surprised that an accident like this may happen as accidents do happen, but I'm more intrigued by the fact that the so called "moderates" would actually execute the pilots on parachute.

Actions speak louder than words.

At least the ISIS "terrorists" allowed the Jordanian pilot to be captured alive - never mind what happened to him after that.

These "moderates" have proved themselves to be even more dangerous than Assad regime soldiers and probably no less dangerous than ISIS fighters.

I shudder to think how many of them have or are going to sneak into Europe as "political refugees" on the basis that they are persecuted by the Assad regime.

ANY/EVERY capable organisation that controls the ground in question would know the extremely high value of captured aircrew, and have disseminated it through their area of influence/control.

I think if the aircrew were captured and immediately executed I think it speaks more to a LACK of influence/control.

Some other things to consider:

A few points on the shoot down:

A Turkish RF4 recce bird got shot down ove Syria, clear violation, but one of those cheeky grey area things that happen.

A couple of Syrian tactical aircraft have been shot down by Turkey.

Syria possesses SU24 aircraft in inventory

What is the relative comparison of paint scheme and national markings between Syrian and Russian SU24s?

What were the Turkish/NATO signals intercepts, did they recognise these as Russian aircraft(coms/data emissions)?

What were the Turkish combat air patrol rules of engagement?

Russia and Turkey have fought eleventeen wars in the last million years. Greece and Turkey, both NATO partners on paper have lost a considerable number of aircraft in overly aggressive sovereignty patrol flights, peacetime dogfights.

Turkey is displaying some rather odd signals of turning away from scularism(at least at he bureaucratic/government level).

I was just talking to an area SME. Someone who is a keen observer, comfortable with getting his hands dirty, and a capable high level networker. When he's scratching his head like right now.....it's makes me want to pull my circle in tighter(as in "speaking within my circle").

This is an unbelievably complex crisis.

There's so many conflicting factions and interests I can only think of it as akin to a shattered mirror scattered all across the ground and trying to put together an accurate reflection for analysis.

TE Lawrence had it EASY compared to the monster that was created and implemented in opposition to his recommendations nearly 100 years later.

[ER59]

Re: Turkey downs Russian fighter jet over Syria

I shudder to think how many of them have or are going to sneak into Europe as "political refugees" on the basis that they are persecuted by the Assad regime.

and the US....

[GRG55]

Re: Turkey downs Russian fighter jet over Syria

I'm not surprised that an accident like this may happen as accidents do happen, but I'm more intrigued by the fact that the so called "moderates" would actually execute the pilots on parachute.

Actions speak louder than words.

...

The SU-24 is a low level strike aircraft. What were the aircrew flying it trying to do to these "moderates"?

If you answered "kill them", you get a gold star.

If someone wielding a supersonic weapons platform tried to kill you or your mates and failed, what would you do?
Invite them to your campfire for mezza and mutton, and try to work it out over ghawa and dates?

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Turkey downs Russian fighter jet over Syria

The SU-24 is a low level strike aircraft. What were the aircrew flying it trying to do to these "moderates"?

If you answered "kill them", you get a gold star.

If someone wielding a supersonic weapons platform tried to kill you or your mates and failed, what would you do?
Invite them to your campfire for mezza and mutton, and try to work it out over ghawa and dates?

I'm pretty sure the Syrians and Russians are flying mostly medium altitude CAS along the lines of US and coalition CAS in Afghanistan and Iraq post regime change 2003.

i suspect this is due to a lack of peer or near peer anti aircraft threat combined with a far lower cost in terms of airframe fatigue and longer loiter times.

A NATO F16 with AMRAAM and high flying hours against an SU24 at medium altitude is a turkey shoot.

I suspect it could have gone differently if the Fencer were flying it's designed low level profile.

But I reckon with your flight experience and brother? If I recall you already know that better than I ;)

S400 deployment to Syria could be interesting and could also represent some KAL007 type ELINT/SIGINT "games" risk.

-----

I genuinely believe that if aircrew were immediately executed upon capture it is a rather bad indicator of very poor local control on the ground.

The propaganda and political value of captured aircrew is SO high it's easy to disseminate rewards for their capture as well as punishment if they are mistreated/executed.

[touchring]

Re: Turkey downs Russian fighter jet over Syria

The SU-24 is a low level strike aircraft. What were the aircrew flying it trying to do to these "moderates"?

If you answered "kill them", you get a gold star.

If someone wielding a supersonic weapons platform tried to kill you or your mates and failed, what would you do?
Invite them to your campfire for mezza and mutton, and try to work it out over ghawa and dates?

That's not a good excuse, in the first place, why are there militants in that area? Who paid and armed them? Who are they fighting for? Turkey? Or the USA?

If they are the so called "relatives", why won't Turkey grant all these militants fighting for them a Turkish passport and a ticket to Istanbul??

If not, they are just illegal mercenaries for hire fighting an illegal war.

Or maybe Canada should grant some of these people asylum? Scroll down.

[GRG55]

Re: Turkey downs Russian fighter jet over Syria

That's not a good excuse, in the first place, why are there militants in that area? Who paid and armed them? Who are they fighting for? Turkey? Or the USA?

If they are the so called "relatives", why won't Turkey grant all these militants fighting for them a Turkish passport and a ticket to Istanbul??

If not, they are just illegal mercenaries for hire fighting an illegal war...

Legal rules for war. How quaint.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPqhm36sjVE